New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#51 2004-08-04 21:15:07

Morris
Banned
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: 2004-07-16
Posts: 218

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Hello,

So far, it seems like all the world's space programs are waiting for a strong goal to materialize. All these different space powers are simply squatting in LEO, doing studies, writing papers and making proposals while the political will simply isn't there to do anything serious in space. Oh, there are the unmanned missions to Saturn, Mercury, Mars and near-Earth space. It seems to me that is either make-work or it's some preliminary work to a more extensive exploration program.

Cordially,

EarthWolf

Yes, I have my frustrations about manned space exploration too. Then I have to remind myself that having a government space effort that is in the 50 billion dollar range means that there is a large industrial/technological support structure out there with lots of political influence (though perhaps not as much as we would like). And that, with the exception of Apollo, the unmanned parts of the program have been the most successful so far.

And I appreciate the international efforts on the ISS and in other programs. The Russians may have lots of friends in the ESA, but they have sure saved our bacon on the ISS.

And I like private international efforts too. SeaLaunch and its US/Ukraine cooperation has been very successful.

Barring some unforeseen disaster, it's just a matter of time. And the stuff we are doing here will make us better prepared. big_smile

Offline

#52 2004-08-05 06:36:19

EarthWolf
Member
From: Missouri, U.S.A.
Registered: 2004-07-20
Posts: 59

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Hello,

Actually, I have to admit that the ISS program is doing worthwhile science towards possible manned deep-space exploration and applied research, such as commercial applications and Earth sciences. Call me a hopeless romantic, but I hope to see a human on Mars or a return of manned missions to the Moon before I die. Sorry for my last post.  sad

Cordially,

EarthWolf


" Man will not always stay on the Earth. "

Konstantin Tsiolkovsky

Offline

#53 2004-08-05 11:35:24

Morris
Banned
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: 2004-07-16
Posts: 218

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Call me a hopeless romantic, but I hope to see a human on Mars or a return of manned missions to the Moon before I die.

Me too. But, in my case, it may be close.

Sorry for my last post.  sad

??? Don't be sorry. You have initiated some of the  most vital threads on the board.

Offline

#54 2004-08-05 22:05:20

RobS
Banned
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

This is a fascinating thread; I'm sorry I didn't read it until now. I've been writing Mars novels for several years and I use them as "scenarios' to try out ideas and see where the ideas go. One aspect of the novels has been the issue of local autonomy versus terrestrial oversight. In my "Mars Frontier" novel, which has volumes 1 and 2 and part of volume 3 on the web (I am currently finishing vol. 11, though) things have played out this way:

1. Columbus 1 brought 6 people to Mars. NASA ran the expedition, but like ISS the crew was international: 2 Americans (including the commander), 2 Europeans (a Frenchman and a Scot), a Russian, and a Japanese. Three stayed at the end of the 26-month cycle (which I call a "columbiad" because the missions are named for Columbus, and a "columbiad" can mean a period of time associated with Columbus). The first six established a base of operations that came to be called colloquially "the outpost."

2. Columbus 2 brought 8 more, so Mars had 11. At the end of the second columbiad, one couple accidentally got pregnant.

3. Columbus 3 brought 13 more; of the 11 already on Mars, 9 stayed, so Mars had 22. When the baby was born (a boy, named Marshall, partly because it sounded like Mars), the problem of getting him a birth certificate became legally complicated because he was not born in anyone's official jurisdiction. NASA ran the outpost, but the territory was not American; and his parents were an American and a Scot, so two different national jurisdictions claimed the right to issue a birth certificate. In frustration, the 22 on Mars signed the "Mars Declaration" which established a local government (not county, national, or planetary). The jurisdiction of the local government included a square 15 degrees of latitude high and 15 degrees of longitude wide, or about 750,000 square kilometers. That block of land was designated Mars's first "borough." "Borough" is an interesting word; in the case of New York City, it refers to a division of the city; in the case of Alaska, it refers to a huge chunk of the state that elsewhere might be called a "county." The word's ambiguity was useful because the residents didn't know whether they were establishing what ultimately would be a township or a county.

4. Columbus 4 brought 18 more; another child was born; their total population rose to 33. On Earth, NASA's leadership of the Mars effort became controversial because of its high operating costs and its refusal to adopt the Swift shuttle, a private spacevehicle able to place ten tonnes of cargo in low earth orbit for $1000 per kilogram (1/6 the cost of the existing system). Furthermore, the transportation system was sort of "open source"; the vehicles could be purchased by anyone. The French purchased their own interplanetary habitat. The Chinese wanted to send astronauts. So a new treaty was passed, establishing a "Mars Commission" to coordinate all exploration and settlement of Mars. It was given all responsibility over the planet. National representatives served as a trustee council and appointed a Commissioner to run everything. He was on Earth, but in practice the Marsians had to make a lot of their own decisions because of isolation. The greatest isolation occurred at conjunction, but by Columbus 4 there was a communications relay satellite several million kilometers from Earth that was available during conjunction to maintain most communications.

One thing that happened in the fourth columbiad is the sale of land to owners on Earth, individual and corporate. This raised a few hundred million dollars only; demand wasn't very strong. Mars also exports several tonnes of fossiliferous rock for sale to the Earth public for about $30 per ounce ($1 per gram).

5. Columbus 5 brought 18 more; with children, population hit 54. Toward the middle of the columbiad, gold was found near Cassini crater, 6,000 kilometers from Aurorae Borough (eastern Marineris). Aurorae grew large enough to need a store (the first private enterprise) and began to sell condos to permanent residents (cost, about $14,000 per square meter; a typical 50 square meter unit cost $700,000, but salaries are five times higher than on Earth and average about $500,000 per year. An imported 1.5 ounce/45 gram candy bar costs $50.)

6. Columbus 6 brought 40 more; population rose to 92, but 16 resided in Cassini, which became the second borough. An attempt to steal gold and a date rape/rape situation resulted in the residents of Aurorae Outpost having to choose juries twice (one arrival in Columbus 5 had been a man with a law degree and an MBA to run the outpost store, but he ended up become their part time judge as well). Both defendants were found guilty, sentenced to house arrest (from which they had to work daily) and "rustication" back to Earth, with the promise of little or no prison sentence on Earth if they cooperated. The incidents drove home the need for planet-wide coordination of legal and criminal matters, so a "Mars Authority" was elected to coordinate these things for a "Mars Commonwealth." Both are ambiguous words as well; there is a Palestinian Authority and a New York Port Authority, in both cases powerful but nonsovereign organizations; and there is the Commonwealth of Independent States, the British Commonwealth, but also the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. It is the latter sense of the word that is meant; a commonwealth is a state-like jurisdiction having as its purpose the common prosperity and wellbeing of the residents within its jurisidiction. I find it quite a nice word. They chose it after debating whether to call themselves a "colony" or not.

The Mars Authority has four major institutions: the governor, who is the Mars Commission Commissioner or someone he chooses; the Mars Residents Council, elected by all residents on Mars based on legislative districts that are identical to the boroughs; the Mars Landowners Assembly, elected by all property owners (most of whom are on Earth, some of whom are corporations and some Mars Society dreamers), and a judicial branch consisting of judges chosen by the governor and ratified by the Council and Assembly.

Columbus 6 also saw a strengthening of the authority of Aurorae Burough. Rather than electing a clerk, treasurer, and chair and making all decisions in town meeting, the residents got tired of town meetings every Sunsol afternoon--they'd prefer to play volleyball, swim, and watch tv instead--so they voted to establish a borough council to pass legislation, consisting of the clerk, treasurer, chair, and two at-large members, to be increased by 2 more when the borough population hit 100, two more when it reached 500, two more when it reached 1,000, and two more per 2,000 residents thereafter. This became the standard system expected by the Mars Authority, which had the authority to charter new boroughs. Boroughs acquired authority to establish day care and schools. The Authority established a 1 mil (1/10 of 1%) property tax to pay for services.

7. Columbus 7 brought 46 more residents; 18 children were born; population rose to 147. Gold was found at Dawes as well and a third borough was chartered. Because of severe economic instability on Earth and a global recession, gold rose to $750 per ounce ($25 million per tonne) from $300 per ounce ($10 million per tonne) and Mars made lots of money, though it still only covered about half its costs through exports. Other exports--platinum class metals, deuterium, argon for ion engines, nitrogen and carbon for the moon, methane for propellant in Earth orbit--also increase.

8. Columbus 8 brings 69 arrivals; the Mars population hits 233. Transportation costs drop to about $10 million per arrival through the use of reusable vehicles, Martian propellant exported to Earth orbit, economies of scale, and the continued drop in the cost of the Swift shuttle.

9. Columbus 9 brings 108 people; Mars population hits 361; two more boroughs are established based on gold mining. A smooth dirt track 6,000 kilometers long connecting all 5 boroughs, from Aurorae to Cassini via Dawes, is completed, with solar powered refueling stations every 700 kilometers. This allows robotic freight trucks to drive back and forth.

10. Columbus 10 brings 196 people; Mars population reaches 608. Because the price of transportation has now droppd to $5 million per arrival, a wealthy Japanese businessman decided to fund a Zen monastery on Mars. Not to be outdone, a wealthy Nigerian sends 16 members of a Nigerian Christian church, a wealthy Iranian sends 16 Shi'i Iranians, and 12 Mormons pay to go to Mars as well. A wealthy new age cult sends 16 as well, and they go off to establish their own borough. This forces further devolution of authority to the Commonwealth from the Mars Commission and to the boroughs from the Commonwealth, especially after the new age borough has a major dome blowout and three are killed by the depressurization. As a result, the Commonwealth establishes a Safety Board; the Commission establishes an Emergency Corps; and the Commissioner loses his authority to serve as Mars Authority governor. Henceforth the Mars Council nominates and approves a "Chief Minister," the choice of which the Commissioner and the Mars Assembly must approve. The Chief Minister is a member of the Mars Council and is the day to day chief executive of the Authority. The Commissioner retains veto power over legislation.

11. Columbus 11 sees 363 arrive; Mars population reaches 1,100. The Authority exercises its newfound responsibilities. An attempt to carve out a piece of Aurorae Borough as a new borough fails, but the collection of pressurized domes is recognized as a separate 'outpost' instead. This establishes boroughs as more like counties.

That's as far as I've gotten. You can see that authority gradually shifts from Earth to Martian institutions, often as a result of crises: a crime, the arrival of a group of new agers seeking to go off on their own, a depressurization accident, etc. Most Mars governmental terms are modified terrestrial nonstandard terms, such as borough, commonwealth, clerk, chief minister. I have assumed that Marsians (they use "Marsian" to refer to human things on Mars and "Martian" to refer to natural things on Mars; hence Martian geology but Marsian ballet) strive to balance individualism with collectivism in a way that is different from Earth because of the need for both individual creativity and high levels of cooperation to survive.

The Martians are speculating that at the projected rate of expansion, Mars will have 4,000 people in another twenty years (the 11th columbiad sees years 22 and 23 on Mars) and will be largely sovereign by then. The 4,000 will have an gross domestic product of about $2 billion, larger than many small, poorer nations on Earth. Even in the eleventh columbiad Mars has become a base for visits to asteroids in the inner solar system and the asteroid belt; by the twentieth columbiad Mars may very well be a major player, sending spacecraft to Saturn or Uranus. By the 11th columbiad it is producing spacecraft hulls for export to Earth (because its reusable shuttles can launch 40 tonnes to low Mars orbit, more than any launch vehicle Earth has, and because it has the technology for making airtight domes, which can be adapted to the making of inflatable vehicles).

Anyway, that's where the scenario has been going. You can read it all, eventually, on my website, http://rsmd.net.]http://rsmd.net.

             -- RobS

Offline

#55 2004-08-05 22:23:59

Morris
Banned
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: 2004-07-16
Posts: 218

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Wow, Rob. Thanks. What a tremendous amount of work. And thanks for posting your personal web site. I read your resume and was most impressed.

When I was in college, I arranged for a presentation on the Baha'i faith to be give to our philosophy club. I don't remember a thing that the speaker said, but she seemed really dedicated.

Offline

#56 2004-08-06 09:45:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,913

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

So back to the question of home rule or representation from afar.
I guess the question comes back to support for those that are there. If no support from Earth and they feel like they are ignored. Then probably they will ignore Earth rule as well and feel that they can do it for themselves.

Offline

#57 2004-08-06 12:19:51

Morris
Banned
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: 2004-07-16
Posts: 218

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

So back to the question of home rule or representation from afar.
I guess the question comes back to support for those that are there. If no support from Earth and they feel like they are ignored. Then probably they will ignore Earth rule as well and feel that they can do it for themselves.

That's probably true, but one of the main issues has to do with what locus of government is dictated by the situation that the residents are in and the question of whose concerns are involved. For example, misdemeanors might well be handled through local control. The residents are the ones who have to deal with the behavior and are in the best position to understand what punishments might be most appropriate.

On the other hand, a military base or a complex science project which is integrated with activities going on elsewhere might need to have primarily external control of it's activities. And if private organizations have made substantial investments in anticipation of financial returns, they will need to have a say through their corporate boards and perhaps by providing input into some of the laws.

I have some vague memories of an article I read a few decades ago on how Royal Dutch Shell handled their worldwide enterprises. It seems that they insisted on detailed information be sent to a central location so that a "big picture" could be developed of the status of the overall enterprise, but they had a policy that the specific actions needed to deal with a situation would be determined locally. Some such model might be practical for a Martian environment.

Offline

#58 2004-08-11 02:45:05

RobS
Banned
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Morris, I agree that essentially two things drive Mars settlement: local actions on Mars and money on Earth. So there will have to be a mix of autonomy and terrestrial involvement/oversight. The balance of those two will determine the degree of Martian "independence."

Offline

#59 2004-08-11 06:57:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,913

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Your both talking eons down the road of not exploration but of settlement and until the numbers, race, and cultural difference either brought or developed there occur these things will most likely not come to pass. Unless some hardship or greed is introduced into the equation that would cause civilized people to act irrationally.

Offline

#60 2004-08-11 11:49:17

Morris
Banned
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: 2004-07-16
Posts: 218

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

Morris, I agree that essentially two things drive Mars settlement: local actions on Mars and money on Earth. So there will have to be a mix of autonomy and terrestrial involvement/oversight. The balance of those two will determine the degree of Martian "independence."

Yes, and this will occur at all stages of development. In the very early stages, it may be that there will be a "mission" rather than a "settlement" structure but then the role of external control will be greater due to the purpose of the mission and the entity, most likely government, which will be controlling it. Then the role of finance will be more hidden, but still very much present, e.g. the current conflicts for funds within the NASA budget, funds for Hubble, funds for ISS, funds for RTF shuttle, funds for space exploration vision, etc.

Since so much of that will evolve from the circumstances of the moment, perhaps current attempts to work on this issue should concentrate on some structure which will anticipate multiple interests/influences. It may be politically expedient to delay formalization of any such structure until a point is reached where some structure is necessary.

That would allow military/science missions of various countries or groups of countries, private businesses, privately sponsored settlements, etc. to exist side by side until they start interfering with one another in some way. But by then, it may be too late. For example, one group may have "corraled" most of the relatively accessible water resources (if there are any).

My preference would be for international agreement on a rough plan governing basic ownership issues. For example, would an initial settlement propose a plan which is then approved by some agency? The agency could operated on guidelines which would give each settlement what it initially needs and then perhaps a charter for expansion. For example, a settlement (e.g. Scott Beach's New Euthenia) might have formal provisions for expansion while a science mission may have essentially no expansion needs. The alternative would be a "homestead act" approach which gives everyone the same initial amount of territory. The latter is simpler but doesn't take into account different mission/settlement needs and purposes.

I would also think that early on the participants might well want to make contributions to some forms of infrastructure, e.g. a communications system which can be relied on under all Martian weather conditions. This would provide wireless radio/tv, telephone, data communications, and global positioning services for all groups. It would provide the basis for dealing with emergencies. Of course, once you have a communications system, a lot of other things become possible, for example shared news/education/entertainment services.

Offline

#61 2004-08-29 14:06:05

Socrates
Member
From: Durham, NC, USA
Registered: 2004-08-29
Posts: 26

Re: Colonial Policy: Direct Rule or Home Rule?

I'm all for total Martian independence from the Earth. If there's anything that can be learned from America's colonial period it's that when the homeland (or in this case homeworld) is a year's travel away it's impossible to either a) let the colonies govern themselves to a degree or b) not to actually enforce some of the more trivial laws you make in order for the homeland in controll (to a degree)


"If you want to know what is in a man's heart, then give him power" Abraham Lincon

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB