Spirit & Opportunity *7* - ...continuing...

Palomar · 2004-08-21 13:39:39

How offhand you deal with the weather conditions on Mars, these days, Cindy. Broken clouds with a possibility of rain, tomorrow--I mean, tosolo?

*Huh? ???

There's not enough weather conditions on Mars.

First deagleninja's desire for Hubble to crash into James Webb Space Telescope (in one of the Hubble threads) and now this... :hm:

Maybe I should lay off watching "Dark Shadows" for a while, lest I suffer a fate similar to Vicky's.

Anyway -- sorry, I don't quite follow your statements (particularly that last, and the question).

(Wonders to self if next my husband will start scolding me and referring to me as Naomi!)

--Cindy

P.S.: Anyone here named Barnabas by chance??

dicktice · 2004-08-22 11:34:34

My tiny point was: Conditions on Mars, compared with last year, are almost familiar enough sol-to-sol by now to enable weather prediction, speaking ironically of course. On the other hand, the maniacal wish for two all-essential space telescopes to collide with each other is certainly not ironic--just mean-spirited blather by someone who needs to get a life.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-08-23 17:43:54

Slightly off-topic here, but I've changed my signature to something Rik said.
The pictures from Mars are 'bringing the place to life' for all of us but, for some of us, it's always been that way. Rik has expressed it, in a language not his own I might add, more poignantly and eloquently than many a native English-speaker might have done.
There is indeed something almost mystical about Mars to many of us; something we 'sufferers' of its effects understand without words among ourselves but find impossible to explain to others.
Rik's words have resonated powerfully with my own inner feelings.

Rxke · 2004-08-23 18:26:08

Phew.

Burning the midnight oil, chewing coffee-beans (I know...)

Don't know what to say...

Have a lot of things to do in 'real' life, but here I am, tinkering with a program called 'breve,' trying to figur out if it would be suitable to design robots with it. By 'genetic evolution.'

Impressive piece of soft. Barely scratching the surface. Changed the thingy into something with three segments on each leg, and changed the "survival-fitness-rules," and it's learning to walk!

We have become so powerful, so many tools to work out ideas...

Palomar · 2004-08-26 07:02:05

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-mer … .html]Stay Off the Sand

*Oppy somehow wound up 10 feet from where it was supposed to come to a halt. Also ran over some "fine soil" with little dune-like ripples in it by mistake.

--Cindy

Stu · 2004-08-26 12:01:20

Mmmm, nice pic!

http://img64.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img64&im … ...ewr.jpg

Rxke · 2004-08-26 12:51:17

Sigh... Thank you, Stu, although it makes my heart bleed, again... It is just too beautiful...

Josh Cryer · 2004-08-26 20:23:23

I have a pretty small monitor, so I put that picture on my TV. Absolutely beautiful. The bigger your display, the better (imho). Spirit has had some of the best views of Mars ever made. The images are always what I imagined Mars to be like.

Stu · 2004-08-27 01:05:03

Just found an intriguing little pic on Exploratorium...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … ...8M1.JPG

Now, assuming this is a sunset view, looking west, a twiddle with STARRY NIGHT suggests that those lights are, from the top: Venus, the Sun, and - very close beside it, making the Sun look elongated - Mercury...

And if I'm right, then Earth is just beneath the horizon, below the Sun/Mercury blob.

Of course, I may be way off here, the lights might be Phobos and Deimos or something else entirely, but nice to imagine it anyway...

Ah. I've just set the Location and time more accurately (just got up!) and if I'm right then the "extended blob" is actually the Sun and EARTH almost touching; Mercury is too close to the Sun to be seen.

If that's true... wow... a real tingle-up-the-spine moment...

REB · 2004-08-27 06:16:44

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … html]Looks like a no go to enter the dunes

Too Risky. I bet they are scared of the Sand wormn that lives there

Josh Cryer · 2004-08-27 07:53:41

Hmm, I dunno Stu, I set it up with Celestia and your first inclination seems right to me. Venus high in the sky, Mercury near the sun, the Earth below the horizon (having gone down about 20 minutes before that image was taken). *But* my attempt shows Venus very high in the sky, far out of the field of view of that image (in fact, I can't even make out another bright object, help me! heh).

May I ask what time/date you're putting in? I've come up with Aug 26 14:46:38 2004 UTC (give or take a few miliseconds ). Hope I decoded the jpeg filename right. Also, you wouldn't happen to know a current long/lat for Spirit and Opportunity, would you? I'm going on the initial location (doesn't really matter, though, they've only gone a few miles anyway, just curious).

dicktice · 2004-08-27 12:01:27

Looks as if our hoped-for "snowdrifts" at the bottom of the crater have turned out to be sand-dunes after all. Quite wonderful though, where those JPL controllers have taken us via that little rover. What next, I wonder?

Stu · 2004-08-28 05:47:31

Hmm, I dunno Stu, I set it up with Celestia and your first inclination seems right to me. Venus high in the sky, Mercury near the sun, the Earth below the horizon (having gone down about 20 minutes before that image was taken). *But* my attempt shows Venus very high in the sky, far out of the field of view of that image (in fact, I can't even make out another bright object, help me! heh).
May I ask what time/date you're putting in? I've come up with Aug 26 14:46:38 2004 UTC (give or take a few miliseconds ). Hope I decoded the jpeg filename right. Also, you wouldn't happen to know a current long/lat for Spirit and Opportunity, would you? I'm going on the initial location (doesn't really matter, though, they've only gone a few miles anyway, just curious).

Hey Josh,

Have to be honest and say my suggestion was based very much on a rushed playabout with STARRY NIGHT before I had to go out for the day. The image just set me thinking, that's all. I just put in the date and the rough original location then time-stepped back and forwards until I had something that resembled the Exploratorium pic.

Not exactly a painstaking scientific process, I know, but when your "other half" is reminding you that the shoe shop has a sale on what can you do?

It really was just a "what it", you know? Will probably turn out to be something else entirely... but you know me, I'm a sentimental dreamer, and I want to see Earth from Mars soooooo badly...!

Josh Cryer · 2004-08-28 06:40:54

Ahh, gotcha, Stu, that was actually what I intended to do at first, but while browsing the folder I found a http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/README]text file that told ya how to decode the filenames (I had an inclination they had some sort of metadata in their names). Figuring out the date was simple enough (especially since UNIX does its time by the second!), and I just used the original landing coordinates (14.5718 S, longitude 175.4785 E) for the location; Celestia is designed so nicely that the process is actually quite simple after that. I tried it with other pictures and the resuls were similar, but I can't get that second bright object to occur on Celestia... it's very weird. The one thing was that I could get the stars to match up pretty well (some specs in that picture could indeed be stars).

Not to invoke people talking of a conspiracy ("Bright light above Mars!), it could be as simple as me decoding the time wrong/getting the wrong location, etc.

I've always loved the pictures of Earth from Mars. The "blue" colored one sent a tingle up my spine. I think Earth rises before the sun does (again, by about 20 minutes), so wouldn't it be awesome if they took a really really long exposure of Earth while tracking it? (Assuming this is possible.) Perhaps one night they take a picture of the horizon, very long exposure, so that it's lit ever so slightly, then they do the tracking thing with Earth the next night, so that we'd have this nice early morning two day composite of Earth rise.

Stu · 2004-08-29 06:21:58

Anyone out there live in Minnesota..?

http://www.smm.org/mars3d/]http://www.smm.org/mars3d/

Wow, I would LOVE to see that! Is it an IMAX film, does anyone know..?

Palomar · 2004-08-29 07:10:01

Anyone out there live in Minnesota..?
http://www.smm.org/mars3d/]http://www.smm.org/mars3d/
Wow, I would LOVE to see that! Is it an IMAX film, does anyone know..?

*Hi all: I posted a related article a few months ago (can't recall which folder). IIRC, it is IMAX. If so, it could come to as near as Alamogordo (New Mexico Space Museum) for me! A mere 2-hour drive. ::fingers crossed::

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2004-08-29 07:19:37

Wow, that looks really cool. But to me it looks a lot like a documentary with still images which will be displayed using their 3d system (for example, when they rovers "land" in the documentary, and we get the first 3d analyglyph pictures back, you'd see what the scientists saw, etc). I'm just guessing from what I saw of the trailer. Could definitely be wrong.

Looks very very cool though.

Stu · 2004-08-30 09:20:03

Any other Exploratorium surfers out there wondering why Spirit suddenly seems to be taking a *lot* of pictures of the sky..?

Such as...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … ...5M1.JPG

Has someone at JPL spotted a tripod war machine stalking over the Columbia Hills or something..?

P.S. Cindy: sorry I missed your earlier posting re the Minnesota 3D film! Didn't mean to repeat your info.

Edit: Here's a nice new sand dunes pic from Opportunity to say sorry...!

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opport … ...1M1.JPG

Just stunning...

Palomar · 2004-08-30 10:49:00

P.S. Cindy: sorry I missed your earlier posting re the Minnesota 3D film! Didn't mean to repeat your info.
Edit: Here's a nice new sand dunes pic from Opportunity to say sorry...!
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opport … ...1M1.JPG
Just stunning...

*Hi Stu: No need to apologize. There's certainly no harm in a reminder. :;): (Besides...didn't want others to think American MS members are ignorant of the matter...lol)

Wow, that pic is stunning indeed. Little ripples on big ripples, sharp contours, inky black shadows. Quite an eyeful.

--Cindy

REB · 2004-08-31 06:08:38

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … ML]Perfect Picture from Opportunity

djellison · 2004-08-31 18:20:30

Hi guys - someone pointed me this way - I'm the chap who starter the mer.rlproject.com forum and who's pics you've been enjoying

Quick note on colours - Basically, I do the best I can based on the rubbish JPG's that JPL put out as 'raw' data. They're usually OK when you have a lot of white in the scene - say looking at the lander airbags - but when there's no simple white point for the auto-gain to lock on to, then the raw imagery varies terribly and the closer you get to the sky the bluer things become. The proper raw data has begun to be published, and I intend to do a series of some small panoramas based on it as and when they appear - probably no 360 degree pieces, they're just too big for my machine ( 24,000 x 4,000 anyone) - but certainly anything from one frame to 20 or more My grand plan is to write a book in the same mould as 'Full Moon' by Mike light.

Anyhoo - not seen it mentioned - you've seen the SW view from Clovis ( the line of three or four frames looking out over the rock onto the floor of gusev ) and the view to the NE - (the larger mosaic looking along the edge of the Columbia hills )

HERE - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=334 is the view looking roughly NW back toward Bonne.

Incase some of you havnt trawled back thru the old pages on the forum - here's a few of my fav works to date

Oppy :
Burns Cliff - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=201

Super Res of Backshell - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=175

First Trench - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … owtopic=77

Rat + Hole - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … owtopic=67

Early Outcrop - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … owtopic=23

Spirit ( by far the more talented photographer )

Columbia Approach -http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=247

Drive and Turn - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=238

Dont look back - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=202 ( still my desktop image - various sizes here - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=203 )

Distant Tracks - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=193

MONSTER TRUCK - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=181

Super Res imaging of Heatshield - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=177

Hows about photoshop? http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … wtopic=117

Empty Nest - http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … owtopic=38

Anaglyph that works -http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=32

Enough spamming from me - any q's about the piccies - let me know

Doug

Rxke · 2004-09-01 03:20:30

Thanks for the visit, Djellison!

Nice pick you got there... Seen them before at your site, but going over the best ones all in one go... wow. Great job. Really great job.

got a couple of questions, should i put them up here or at the http://mer.rlproject.com place?

djellison · 2004-09-01 04:02:32

Thanks for the visit, Djellison!
Nice pick you got there... Seen them before at your site, but going over the best ones all in one go... wow. Great job. Really great job.
got a couple of questions, should i put them up here or at the http://mer.rlproject.com place?

Either / Both - I could answer here and put an FAQ @ mer...

Doug

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-01 05:29:02

Very nice, Doug!

I am woefully ignorant of computerised images and must, therefore, rely on the skills of others. I was interested to see your disdain for some of the NASA 'raw' images and the colours involved.
Some of us here have been speculating about the colour of the sky on Mars for years now! I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be blueish if there isn't much dust in the area at any given time, though I've seen enough of terrestrial dust-storms to understand why it must be pink at other times.
Many of the NASA shots in the past have portrayed Mars as a lurid red with an almost orangy-pinky-red sky. This representation became so entrenched in the mainstream conception of Mars that it was duplicated in the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, "Total Recall", in which the scenery was a surreal colour reminiscent of Hades!
Without dwelling on the lunatic fringe's interpretation of NASA's colour rendering habits, suffice it to say they (NASA) seem, almost, to revel in making Mars look more alien than it really is.
I'm curious to know your views on just how blue the martian sky can actually be, at its bluest! If you get a minute, perhaps you could give us a few hints(?).
Many thanks!

[P.S. If you could keep your comments fairly straightforward, for the sake of us troglodytes(! ), I would be most grateful! ]

djellison · 2004-09-01 10:05:11

Well - I'm no scientist either - I'm a tempremental artist

The Raw jpg's that jpl puts out at the moment are useless. One can make NO claims about sky colour or any other colour for that matter. - I'll do my best to explain why.

Each image is treated individually to what ammounts to an automatic adjustment to show the best range of brightness. That means that even if the brightest thing in one image is infact only a mid grey - it'll be stretched so that it's white and everything stretches underneath it. In photoshop this is called 'auto levels'

Unfortunately - they do it to each image of each filter - ignoring its context to its matching images thru other filters.

Thus - if you're looking at nothing but sky - an L2 image ( near infrred) will be an averaged grey noise. So will L4, L5, L6 and L7.

Merge that in photoshop to get colour - and you get nothing but grey - because they're all averaged out the same way - even though in actual fact - the red channel should be brighter than the blue channel say.

Now - part of that auto-levels treatment is done on the rover itself. It takes greyscale images with 12 bit depth ( 4096 shades of grey ) - using exposure either specifically commanded, or its best guess based on previous images. It often then does a bit of a stretch on the image to turn it into an 8 bit image that is obviously, smaller in file size.

That then gets sent down to the ground - and reverse engineerd based on what the rover did to it to get a proper image that is an accurate representation of the brightness with that given filter. When you merge these in photoshop - you get a fair representation of the colour on mars.

However - to give the best dynamic range - they auto-level them agian here so at least one pixel is white and one pixel is black and the rest is stretched in between. THAT - is what you get with the Raw JPG's.

to give you an idea - this is an image made using L4, 5 and 6 filters of the Columbia dedication on the back of the HGA ( I know - a morbid target to test the issue - but an excellent one technically - with lots of variation in colour )

This is made using the raw JPG's from the nass website

This is made from calibrated IMG files from the PDS

See how the former has at least one pixel that is totally white - because of that auto-level treatment they've had. The properly calibrated file however - has no such tendency and looks far more 'natural'

This hue also matches that at the bottom image of these choice pieces of work by Justin Maki ( part of the MER team now ) of the Pathfinder field of view http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/MPF/science/PD … jun99.html - notice the picture of the airbages look just like the one I did of the back of the HGA on Spirit. Notice the sky colour. These are part of a peer reviewed paper on the subject.

Another comparisont that shows JPL raw JPG's - and proper PDS IMG's

See how things change from frame to frame from the JPGs. Notice also that because there is actualyl somethign white in the bottom frame - the auto-levels did little to ruin the bottom frame. You will find that images including airbags, sundial or IDD will usualyl come out well because something is actually white in the field of view.

Also note how the colour between the top and bottom frame is identical in the left set. These have been properly calibrated and released according to PDS rules and peer review at JPL - and it is from images like this that one can begin to make a judgement on the colour of the martian sky.

No - I dont think the sky would be bright red. I think its salmon pink. One thing is certain - the sky is packed full of dust. What colour is the dust? Salmon Pink / Beige. What colour's the sky therefore - Salmon Pink / Beige.

The closer to the sun you look however - the less you're seing dust that's lit by the sun, and the more you're seing light thats pasing THRU the dust instead - refracted if you will- and this can cause it to look a little more like it would if there were no dust at all - a little more grey - bordering on blue.

There is no conspiracy to make mars look more alien. There are some excellent papers that discuss the issue of proper photometric studies of mars.

For the very simplist test - look at the sundial on the rovers. If the sun dial is looking about right in terms of colour - then look at the two little mirrors - one each side just outside the white band

THAT - is the colour of the sky on mars - and when most of the sky is that colour - then the whole place is going to look that sort of colour (hint - what colour does a white piece of paper look on the floor of a room with bright blue walls - slightly blue ! )

This guy explains it more scientifically and quantitatively than I could ever dream of doing

http://www.atsnn.com/story/30048.html]h … 30048.html

So - conclusions.

1) Dont pretend you can make a call on colours based on the raw JPG's. You cant. They're not a scientific product.

2) Nasa isnt doctoring colours. Pancam team alone runs into dozens of people. Consider the Viking people, the Pathfinder people, and the MER people - there's THOUSANDS of people been involved in the seemingly simple task of taking photographs from the surface of mars. Are we to believe that they're doing the best job that science can of showing us what colour the place is - or are we to believe that actually - they're ALL part of one massive conspiracy to make mars a different colour than it really is.

3) The sky is salmon pink / beige typically. It varies a LOT however - depending on where you look ( with respect to the sun ) and how dusty the atmosphere is (huge seasonal variations depending on dust storms) - and where you are ( Meridiani and Gusev look different to one another, and different over time as the volume of dust in the atmosphere changes)

So there we go - no sexing up of mars is going on And when I make my pictures from the raw jpg's - all I ever do is adjust them to look as 'nice' as possible. Not accurate, not right, not fudged. Just ''nice'.

Doug

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