Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

chat · 2004-08-01 02:38:11

Athanasius,

At some point of a teraform engineered bacteria would help to fine tune the last few bars of atmosphere.

Venus has little free water in the atmosphere right now, but it does have some.

Adding more water from asteroids or hydrogen seems the simple solution to making a nice home for the bacteria.
But adding even vast quantities of water or hydrogen to Venus will simply make an even more hostile place.

IMHO the only way to teraform Venus is to.

1. create a sun block of sorts to cool the surface enough so machines can work on the surface.
Smog satellites, asteroid collisions in orbit etc.

2. build a few birk chimneys to remove 50+ bars of atmosphere.
Or a very large particle beam to act as a chimney.

3. mine for hydrogen,iron and water.

4. engineered bacteria to remove the remaining toxins from the atmosphere.

5.giant magnets at each pole as a man made magnetic field.

6.plants and fungus and bacteria to stabilize the system.

karov · 2004-08-01 05:00:02

Again on the upper mantle venusian water reserves` extraction:
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According to the experimental data in melted basalt with temperature of 1000 C and pressure of 5000-10000 bars (depth 20-40 km) can be desolved 7-8% water by mass. Exposed on surface as lava, the upper mantle material quickly degases from its water content. On Hawaii - a hot spot volcanic formation - the water content of the erupting lava confirms the experiments done. The hot spots usually lead to shield volcanism - the lava spils sidewise, effectivelly loosing in the atmosphere its water and other volatile`s content and in near earth gravity forms 'shields' - hundreds of km wide and ~10 km high. There are theories that namely an asteroid impact caused the formation of Hawaii. Even if not so, I think that impactor induction of vulcanism is practically achievable for our water mining purposes on Venus.

In order to release one earth`s hydrosphere on the venusian surface we need to cause lava spil of ~20 E9 km3 from specially designed artificial or artificially excited hot spots in the venusian upper mantle. Under venusian crust are proven to exist very high pressure zones in mantle, allowing mountains a little bit higher than the isostatically possible to exist. A specially designed impactors ( very dense and hardened against atmosphere ablation, long and with sharp heads -- something like kilometer wide, several kilometers long steel arrows or rods) should be able to penetrate to the upper venusian mantle. Their velocity could be ~100 km/s, trajectory vertical, mass in many trillion tonnes and they simultaneously can inject their kinethic energy - transfomed in explosive release of heat - in the necessary depth with insignificant loses during atmospheric and crustal phase of the impact, increase enormously the pressure there, and leaving a hole to be released the pressure - innitial + added. Might be chosen such parameters of the impactor and the targeted layer, that the surrounding the 'injection' mantle mass to suddenly phase shift in liquid or boiling form in order the very eruption to last several decades longest.

If we take Mauna Kea as standart, adjust it to the venusian gravity at 15 km hight, 150 km diameter of the volcanic shield - we need 400 such artificial supervolcanoes to export from the venusian mantle the amount of one earth`s hydrosphere in several decades.

The projectiles could be produced in the Main belt from iron asteroids. Indeed no comparable with size of the final 'bullets' machines are necesarry. The natural iron/nicel alloy of the certain asteroid could be molten with modest-sized sollar furnaces and later to be cast in the needed form without shaping case via liquid-iron drops deposition... If we have 'robotic space based industry' it is simple and small task. The velocity could be achieved by , say gravity assists maneuvre with the Sun - whole percents of light speed are discussed as possible - vector change the orbital velocity of the impactor to pass around the solar rim...

The atmosphere of Venus will be hotter and denser after the eruptions but wetter, allowing Sagan scenario to be deployed, or would ease the colonisation of the venusian atmosphere with baloon-cities and buoyant countries...

karov · 2004-08-07 08:27:12

Chat, indeed several dozens of kilometers high brick chimney is a very hard task to be built even in the presence of the pressure support from the dense atmosphere horizontally from asside.
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Many other "hovering vacuumed tunels" for electromagnetical acceleration of cargo - plasma or put in containers - could be designed: for example - a vacuumed tube with very thin 'cloth' walls, attached to series of hot-air baloons on different altitudes in order the pipe to be oriented on the most effective 45 degrees according to the surface curve. The baloons have transperant upper hemisphere, and mirror one from inside bottom hemisphere. The transperancy/reflectablility is regulative in order the baloons to be managable vertically. The light excessively left from the heating the internal venusian air content is utilised for production of electricity. The electricity powers chemical processors for dissociating of CO2, the coils of the accelerator and the whole factory complex for processing of the rough venusian atmosphere in cargo for lifting in low venusian orbit. This 'gun' long dozens or hundreds of km spits the atmosphere to low orbit where, say solar sails ship it where it is demanded in the System. It could be easily calculated how much time it would take for getting rid of substantial part of the venusian atmoaphere, if let say, ~1% of the incoming solar radiation is effectivelly transfered in kinethic energy of accelerated products. The millions of pipe-factory compex`s units could be constructed by self-replicating machines in several decades with modest temp of reproduction programed. Remember that in 70-es NASA played with the idea for just 100-tonnes lunar SRS unit. Up to date many problems unsolveable by the tech of these years, could be solved. The carbon from CO2 is perfect for making very strong composites for the billions and billions of standartised containers, for the absorbing type ( Forward`s one ) of solar sails - deployed by the container in orbit after pipe- acceleration, etc. harware necessary for shipping of CO2, O2, N2 everywhere is necessary in the Solar system. The ready and filled with the different stuff self-propelled tanks with calculable and payable PRICE, could be offered from other interested parties ( Moon, Mars ) -- airbraking or lithobraking at destination, or on park solar orbits, waiting to be offered, payed and used. Notice, this resembles much to the petrol industry where the cargo of the already traveling tankers is subject of changing its proprietor as many times as possible, where the petrol is bought out before extraction and so on -- perfect deals for kinda space goods stock exchange market...
The energy demands of such complex could be satisffied by an array of closer to the Sun lasers -- see "Soletas and solasers" thread... -- which lasers to target with snipers` accuracy the photoreceivers of the pipes` power plants.
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From NEA or rather near-venusian asteroids material built hundreds of very massive space elevators towers. The rate of axial rotation of Venus is too slow the towers to reach the surface in sinchronous manner, but this is not necessary -- the bottom end of the elevator could be sunk in the upper layers and to constantly scoop the atmosphere for processing and lifting. The lenght of the tower could be hundreds of thousands of km, so at the top the cargo to have bigger than escape velocuty, indeed high enough to directly supply the whole Inner system, with little redirecting by solar sail means(?). The tower pushes against the atmosphere, so it could be used to siphon out the stuff, as the Pierson design for the much more faster spinning earth. Thousands of such scratch-scoop towers should be able to extract the signifficant necessary part is sound time scale...
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Rotavators -- thousands and thousands rotating short ( several dozens of km - cause the hundreds of gees specific acceleration is not essential when one lifts non-living things as compressed gases and carbon-nanotubes spools) non-sinchronous sky hooks, could excavate incrementally out all the venusian atmosphere, processed on buoyant huge rafts floating in the ~1 bar layer...
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Lofstrom loops and orbital rings and other dynamically supported ( opposite to the mentioned three up) schemes for doing the same jobs. The best way is the momentum exchange tech to be used for importing of mass ( hydrogen) in order the masses to be gravitationally and mechanically swapped/traded almost without additive supply iof energy...
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More details for the solar hydrogen mining:

- The closer to the Sun instalation scoops and accelerates protons or better recombinated after acceleration H to several thousands of km/s. In http://www.iase.com]www.iase.com you can see idea for 'multibarrel' electrostatical nano-accelerator able to speed up particles to ~10% light speed.

- An instalation supported in orbit deep enough within the venusian atmosphere to scoop enough CO2 and/or N2, catches the tight and powerfull beam of accelerated hydrogen, and electromagnetically decelerates it to v~0 km/s according to the venusian inertial frame. The electromagnetical energy of the deceleration is used to accelerate stuff for export - for example you recombine the H with CO2 to make water and export the carbon -- each high velocity imported H serves for exporting dozens of thousdands carbon atoms and O2 or N2 if there is demand abroad ( Luna, Mars, Vesta, tube worlds...)

Enough energy and instalations capacity -- and in mere decades you turn almost all the CO2 in H2O oceans and export the excessive carbon for off-venusian exploitation, lessen the atmo-pressure to 2-3bars... Later add more water, bioform the atmosphere and so on.

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The biggest adevantage of such brutal en mass process&export means is that for example the necessary 02 and N2 could be imported in direct form on Mars or Moon, without to be necessary slowly the local resourses to be processed biogenically. An earth-like atmosphere descending from the sky in mere decades, instead millenia of recombining, regolith evaporation, etc...

The Biggest-biggets advantage is that combined and simultaneous manner of teraforming many worlds at once + tube worlds incremental production establishes automatically space markets and allows this all to be started and maintained by private companies. The scale of work naturally falls in competence in the hands of global earth autorities, they give licenses, confirm courses and trajectories, legalise real estate trade, the interplanetary trade, charge the players with taxes and fees... like the way of regulation of the world`s air and sea trade... WE don`t need solar system government, or even don`t need planetary global governments, but working network of institutions...

SpaceNut · 2004-08-13 13:22:00

No need to land on the ground to create a place to live on venus. Create a balloon system and energy transfer exchanger from the heat of the atmosphere to create electricity to keep it flying non stop. Collect gasses from atmosphere for breathing and for water. Basically a floating atmospheric base. The same could work I think for an airplane like system as well.

karov · 2004-08-13 14:33:50

I agree. Look back the topic -- you`ll see this idea. Floating cities, countries, continents... entire artificial floating planetary surface... The human colonization of the habitable in temperature terms venusian skies is the inevitable begining of a process which leads toward total terraforming of the planet. Paul Birch in "Terraforming Venus Quickly" envisions hexagonal buoyant rafts at 50-60 km altitude with surface area of 30 000 km2 each... couple of hundred years later we see them as floating onto the introduced water oceans of Venus, islands. Such raft will have all the resourses and energy it needs for comfortable housing of several millions of people. Even if the planet is decided to be left as it is by its skydwellers, than ~1000 birch`s raft-islands can give enough living area and high living standard for ~equivalent of the present earth`s human population, covering <10% of the surface and leaving the ~90% rest as open aerial "high seas"...

SpaceNut · 2004-08-18 11:21:44

Venus: Inhabited World?
Interview with David Grinspoon

http://www.astrobio.net/news....thold=0

snipet:
The planet Venus is like Earth in many ways. It has a similar size and mass, it is closer to us than any other planet, and it probably formed from the same sort of materials that formed Earth. For years scientists and science fiction writers dreamed of the exotic jungles and life forms that must inhabit Earth's twin sister.

karov · 2004-08-19 01:30:01

Yes, I know about the idea.

If in the clouds of Venus native life is present, than this can give enormous advantages to sky-colonisation and later terraformation. The local cloudy life could be harvested and even agricultured - providing the necesarry biomass for the colonial baloon-cities. Thus we could simultaneously inhabit the planet and preserve the life as an act of interplanetary ecological ethics. Even if never the solid surface of Venus is terraformed, the total area of the floating colonies can comprise significant part of the overall surface on hight of 50-60 km - very well isolated from the local biomes. Imagine burch`s rafts covering 10% ~ 50 000 000 km2 of heaven-equivalent of habitable area...

SpaceNut · 2004-08-19 08:11:28

If we were to get a ship into the lowest possible orbit and to lower a syphoning tube into the atmosphere that is connected to a pump and storage system at the ship. One could start the process of not only teraforming but also for provide the ability to self sustain themselves with less support from earth.

dicktice · 2004-08-19 13:23:58

Please describe just how your siphon scheme would work from low Venus orbit. Could you test drive a version of it from LEO, for instance?

SpaceNut · 2004-08-19 14:31:48

I do not see that any problem other than Earth has a lot more atmospheric drag that a planet like venus does not.

dicktice · 2004-08-21 11:35:41

I do not see that any problem other than Earth has a lot more atmospheric drag that a planet like venus does not.

Don't you mean just the reverse?

SpaceNut · 2004-08-23 05:38:05

Yes and No but mostly maybe. My thought was with regards to simular altitude and not of is density.

On the syphon I have a couple of thoughts one is to hang from orbit the container and a compressor like unit, where external atmosphere is brought in though an intake and compressed into the container to be hauled up when filled.
I was thinking that it could be shaped like a plane and have the wings covered with solar panels to power the compressor unit.

The compressor is simular to a car engine in that the intake of atmosphere which is sucked into a chamber, on the down stroke, then the intake valves closes followed by the exhaust to compress the gas to the storage tank. The intake could be connected to a semi rigid tube that would be lowered into the atmoshpere from the orbiting vehicle. Probably miles long but I think possible. In either case use solar power and a electric motor to run the compressor.

Chill tank contents slowly and filter out liquids as they condense for later use into individual tanks.

chat · 2004-08-24 05:06:08

IMHO Getting the atmosphere of Venus to a higher orbit shouldn't be to tough.
Even co2 escape velocity speeds could be accomplished with todays technology.

A geo satellite carrying a very large particle beam focused on one spot on Venus, would heat the local atmosphere to escape velocity.

Something like a birk chimney effect, but without the need to build a chimney on the surface.

Collecting the escape gas for other uses shouldn't be to difficult once it has escaped Venus.

The same idea at Mars could have the reverse effect.
Geo polar orbit, with the beam focused on the ice cap, but only focused in one spot for short periods of time.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-26 05:56:56

Was Venus Alive? 'The Signs are Probably There'
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/v … 40826.html

karov · 2004-09-11 05:10:21

IMHO Getting the atmosphere of Venus to a higher orbit shouldn't be to tough.
Even co2 escape velocity speeds could be accomplished with todays technology.
A geo satellite carrying a very large particle beam focused on one spot on Venus, would heat the local atmosphere to escape velocity.
Something like a birk chimney effect, but without the need to build a chimney on the surface.
Collecting the escape gas for other uses shouldn't be to difficult once it has escaped Venus.
The same idea at Mars could have the reverse effect.
Geo polar orbit, with the beam focused on the ice cap, but only focused in one spot for short periods of time.

Chat, don`t steal ideas! :-) Quote them.

BTW, the particle beam system to export and transport CO2 from Venus is indeed artificial amplification of what the solar radiation and wind naturally do. If the insolation is bigger - more atoms and molecules will reach the escape velocity at the exobase. If the spectrum of this incoming amplified electromagnetic flux consists of shorter waves` photons - also the atmosphere dissipation could be increased sufficiently. The other solar natural mechanism for atmosphere deterioration is the solar wind stealing atoms from the exobase via pick up through its mag-field. The natural solar wind is quite weak, but combined these two effects + hydrogen-containing compounds ( water, amonia, methane...) photodissociation deprives entire planet of hydrogen for several dozens of millions of years on Venusian sun distance.

Hence: Point to Venus several thousand times bigger input of light and amplify via particle beam projector thousands of times more powerfull artificial "solar wind". Make the extra-EM radiation via hard UV or even X-ray lasers instaled on very near to the Sun ( several radii) solar light powered statites, together with as many thousands as necesarry particle beam generators.

The combined action of several MW/m2 of X-ray + thousands of times denser "solar wind" with ions moving with , say, not 500-800 m/s but with 10 000-30 000 m/s will strip the thick Venusian blanket in mere decades. This is lots of energy.

Such system is multifunctional - it allows us to send enormous power to interstellar distancies - to terraform every body in our system or to send huge relativistic ships abroad...

The exported CO2 - thousands of molecules for each incoming accelerated particle, readily could be captured and transported to the Moon or elsewhere in the System. The enormous power influx could be used to spin Venus faster and to be processed in mass production fast rude grand scale the local resourses from whatever depth in breathable atmosphere and oceans...

BUT, this scheme is politically IMPOSSIBLE, because the engineering lasers and particle beam generators are superweapon able to destroy the Earth for a blink of an eye. In the Solar system not - but in other systems this is plausible quick terraforming technology can be accomplished.

Finally, the terraforming is indeed only matter of how powerfull we are in processing and transporting on interplanetary distances masses of lunar or planetary magnitude!

Particle beam system is another kinethic structure or "Dinamic compression members" as Paul Birch describes it. See http://www.paulbirch.net]www.paulbirch.net.

karov · 2004-09-11 05:19:42

Dear space folks,

The export of CO2 from Venus is just way of CO2 - sequestration. Let call it "Orbital" or "Interplanetary Sequestration". It could be done through: chimneys, plasmic lightning-like channels, excavation via rotavators, siphoning by synchronous skyhooks, railguns firing packed portions shells...

The other sequestration methods, developed and practiced here on Earth now for lowering the CO2 industrial emisions are "geological" - injecting it in the crust and "oceanic" - freezing or liquifying the CO2 in non-gaseous phase state...

We need sequestration of CO2 and other substances in order to make livable planet-wide environment. On lower gravity worlds it is necesarry to sequester the water, too for example in order to not photodissociate and escape in the space through the troposphere natural or enchanced "cold trap".

karov · 2004-09-11 07:22:04

Also, very important means of geological CO2 sequestration is carbonisation of rocks. Sediments - biotically or abiotically formed.

Biological sequestration - bond the excessive CO2 in biomass.

The Venusian CO2 is too much - we should export it or liquify/freeze it and than export it...

dicktice · 2004-09-12 12:23:20

karov: I really long for you to apply the power of your obviously innovative mind to the practical aspects, first of all, of floating colonies within the atmosphere of Venus. Here, we have an apparently do-able scheme of approach, and all I read from you are undo-able (at least, in the forseeable future) surface terraforming schemes. Why the reluctance to "bite the bullet," you and the other Venus space-folks concerned with colonizing Venus, sooner rather than later?

chat · 2004-09-12 16:09:26

karov,

I wasn't stealing or quoting.
It was just my thoughts without reading *lol*

I agree about the particle beam easily being turned into a nasty weapon. (in the blink of an eye)

We could probably get the same result with a few geo orbiting lenses all concentrated on one location.
(boy scout trick to start a fire)
If we can get one spot hot enough it should act like an atmospheric jet spewing atmosphere into space.

That is less likely to be used as any kind of weapon, and the only cost a bit of fuel to keep in place.

The more i look at Venus the more i feel its a giant chemistry problem awaiting a simple scheme to solve the catch 22.

As newbies in the space game our only real easily accessible tools are iron asteroids and comets.

If we cant find a way to do it using them, then Venus will have to wait for 100s of years before we are ready to try grander plans.

I've always wondered if we could teraform Venus what would be the maximum amount we would spend to di it.
10 billion? 100 billion? 1 trillion?

The answer to that question is a real answer if we are really ready to make any attempt in the near future.

Do we cool Venus with shading, then work like mad importing hydrogen and bacteria and mining machines.

Or do we attempt to overheat Venus locally, dump atmosphere, then do the same as above without shading.

In my thoughts the overheating and removal of a good % of the atmosphere before we start seems less technically challenging.
If we removed 90% of the atmosphere we still have an abundant amount of nitrogen and co2 for conversion with hydrogen to h20.
And the immediate effect of atmosphere dumping will be a planet cooling.

Just my ramblings though

P.S. looked at my post on high pressure teraforming and just laughed.
Thats what happens when you stay up way to late

karov · 2004-09-19 01:22:37

Locally applied hotspot-jetting is better than global frying via solar laser/particle beam generator. As atitarev pointed out Venus needs 10% of the earth`s water to be covered 80% of it`s surface, so innitially we could concentrate on atmosphere stripping and later to import water, not only hydrogen.

Imagine, on hight of 60-100 km enormous fleet of selfreplicating with local resourses particle accelerators. Using concentrated natural or lasered light via mirror-lenses orbiting or statiting at Venus, supplyed one by one with surgically sharp targeting, these particle accelerators turn the atmospheric CO2 in plasma and in tight beams shoot it at receiving/redirecting station arround the planet. The receiver stations process it and export the carbon/oxigen ( or even 1-2 bars of N2) to where it is necesarry - the Moon, Mars, tube-worlds constructed in the Inner system... Such way as I 'insist' - the terraformation of the different bodies will be accomplished simultaneously - using the resourses from one planet to other and thus, also starting interplanetary trade with 'goods' of >10exp18 tonnes range. Mars or Luna or Mercury can be terraformed at once - directly, without innitial chemical processing of the local matter. Thus they in mere decades not centuries and millennia, could have the terran atmospheres with 21% O2 and 78% N2 + 'impurities' - falling out of the sky as O2/N2 carbon nanotubes containers + water microcomets produced and fired in from the Outer icy system.

It is matter of number of the machines and the shear power involved how many centuries would take untill the CO2 is reduced to the point necesarry for biosphere and crustal hydro-bounding.

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#276 2004-08-01 02:38:11

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#277 2004-08-01 05:00:02

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#278 2004-08-07 08:27:12

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#279 2004-08-13 13:22:00

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#280 2004-08-13 14:33:50

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#281 2004-08-18 11:21:44

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#282 2004-08-19 01:30:01

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#283 2004-08-19 08:11:28

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#284 2004-08-19 13:23:58

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#285 2004-08-19 14:31:48

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#286 2004-08-21 11:35:41

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#287 2004-08-23 05:38:05

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#288 2004-08-24 05:06:08

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#289 2004-08-26 05:56:56

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#290 2004-09-11 05:10:21

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#291 2004-09-11 05:19:42

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#292 2004-09-11 07:22:04

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#293 2004-09-12 12:23:20

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#294 2004-09-12 16:09:26

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#295 2004-09-19 01:22:37

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

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