The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

quasar777 · 2004-08-20 10:46:57

i don`t think we`re needing @ this point to worry about very many people on The Moon. obviously there won`t be a large MoonBase anytime soon. even if MoonReturn is only for short visit, it will get people to think about Lunar resources such as they are. let`s say a MoonReturn crew is there for a week, ok now how much longer could they remain in OuterSpace. wouldn`t it be entirely possible that since they were exposed to 1/6g for long enough to "rest" from MicroG, they could carry on further exploration? perhaps instead of returning to Earth, MoonReturn crew could theoretically be "resupplied" as it were. so why don`t we just live w/ the fact MoonBase will never be "big". small can also mean flexible.

Commodore · 2004-08-20 11:16:44

It's not relatively easy to have a permanent moon base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen, to all these people?

It's not relatively easy to have a permenant Mars base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen to all these people?

MarsDog · 2004-08-20 11:29:30

It's not relatively easy to have a permenant Mars base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen to all these people?

People design and implement techniques to use resources. All the resources are there on Mars. Solar cell manufacture would be the first step. From there, keep manufacturing everything needed. That is what people do on Earth, Mine and manufacture.

Dook · 2004-08-20 11:53:14

It's not relatively easy to have a permanent moon base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen, to all these people?
It's not relatively easy to have a permenant Mars base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen to all these people?

I never said we should have a mars base. In fact, I don't think there will be or should be any significant numbers of people on mars until it has an atmosphere. Up till then, scientists for visits of 6 mo to 1 yr.

Also, if we were to build a permanent base somewhere mars would be a much better choice than the moon. Just because it is close does not make it better. Mars has water, it has CO2 that can be converted to oxygen, and we can probably grow food in pressurized domes.

Commodore · 2004-08-20 12:20:34

It's not relatively easy to have a permenant Mars base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen to all these people?
People design and implement techniques to use resources. All the resources are there on Mars. Solar cell manufacture would be the first step. From there, keep manufacturing everything needed. That is what people do on Earth, Mine and manufacture.

Much of the same can be on the Moon. There are differences obviously, but theres quite a bit of overlap in requirements between the two.

Heres a http://www.permanent.com/l-index.htm]Link.

MarsDog · 2004-08-20 12:25:44

I never said we should have a mars base. In fact, I don't think there will be or should be any significant numbers of people on mars until it has an atmosphere. Up till then, scientists for visits of 6 mo to 1 yr

A breathable atmosphere, (breathable by compression), is unlikely because of the poisionous CO2, stored as ice, at the poles. Remember to burry the Carbon.
-
Enclosed settlements will be, because they are easy.
Some people will volunteer, after all, not all Europeans emigrated.

Commodore · 2004-08-20 12:51:12

I never said we should have a mars base. In fact, I don't think there will be or should be any significant numbers of people on mars until it has an atmosphere. Up till then, scientists for visits of 6 mo to 1 yr.
Also, if we were to build a permanent base somewhere mars would be a much better choice than the moon. Just because it is close does not make it better. Mars has water, it has CO2 that can be converted to oxygen, and we can probably grow food in pressurized domes.

I think it will take several permenant installations and several thousand people, both requiring considerable surface and orbital infrastructure to support any serious terraforming operation.

And thats not to say that there can't be or shouldn't be mineral expolitation of Mars in its current state, or as it transitions. In fact I'd bet it would be far easier in its current state because of the lack of liquid water or biomass to cover it, or a thicker atmosphere to complicate moving such mineral resources off world.

Plus, as technology progesses, I have no doubt that a normal earth-like life on Mars will be more than possible long before terraforming is complete.

Anyway, regardless of what happens on Mars, any serious manned exploration of the solar system will require materials of such mass that are not practical to launch from Earth. The moon has everything needed to create such things, and with a bit a creativity, support human populations.

Grypd · 2004-08-20 12:54:30

Quote Dook Aug, 20 2004 12;09

Robots working non-stop to build a long term space exploration for Humans into space? Where are you planning to send all these Humans?

Where do the people who control the Robots be when we are working on the Moon, Easy in offices located on Earth, doing shifts and handing over control of there robot to the next office in the chain as there shift finishes.

One thing we must do is to make the return to the Moon by people as effective as possible. And when we return it must be to stay and to exploit what is there. If we use robots to increase the Solar power grid and to actually build facilities and to mine the Moon this lets us use the more flexible Humans to actually do what they do best-THINK. As the robots are mining they will let the Humans do the surveying and exploration that is what we wish to do there, not the basics we should be overseers not grunts.

Commodore · 2004-08-20 13:04:24

Quote Dook Aug, 20 2004 12;09
Robots working non-stop to build a long term space exploration for Humans into space? Where are you planning to send all these Humans?
Where do the people who control the Robots be when we are working on the Moon, Easy in offices located on Earth, doing shifts and handing over control of there robot to the next office in the chain as there shift finishes.
One thing we must do is to make the return to the Moon by people as effective as possible. And when we return it must be to stay and to exploit what is there. If we use robots to increase the Solar power grid and to actually build facilities and to mine the Moon this lets us use the more flexible Humans to actually do what they do best-THINK. As the robots are mining they will let the Humans do the surveying and exploration that is what we wish to do there, not the basics we should be overseers not grunts.

It would still require a limited human presence on the surface to do maintainance on the robots, and oversee construction. Besides, we'd want geologic survey teams anyway.

John Creighton · 2004-08-20 13:37:22

Hopefully, we will soon have robots highly capable in both scientific exploration and construction. Once we have these robots then everything will change. P.S. I think the idea of a 100 m long space craft is a fantastic idea. Clearly an earth space craft must be much stronger structurally then one built on the moon. Clearly this advantage of the moon could translate into a larger space craft or a lighter space craft.

Grypd · 2004-08-20 14:02:07

It is what we do on the Moon that will help us when we go for a large Human prescence on Mars. If we can develop these robots we will learn what works and what does not, Eventually we will have robots able to operate themselves no longer telerobotic but operationally autonomous. This is when they will be of great benefit to the colonisation of Mars.

Martian Republic · 2004-08-20 17:53:20

It's not relatively easy to have a permenant Mars base. How are you going to feed, supply water, and oxygen to all these people?
People design and implement techniques to use resources. All the resources are there on Mars. Solar cell manufacture would be the first step. From there, keep manufacturing everything needed. That is what people do on Earth, Mine and manufacture.

Well, down here we have farms, factories, mining company to make all those things. We have government built infrastructure like road, rail roads, subway, water and sewer system, public school system, city air port and earth is a self-sustaining eco-system too.

When you say we should do on Mars what we do down here on Earth.

Do you really understand what your saying?

Do you really understand how much labor goes into making things happen down here and in every area that you take for granted or don't even think about it?

Unless you happen to have a 24 Century Star Trek Replicator in closet or something, it flat not going to happen.

Just to build the present day shuttle or Boeing 777 or 747 commercial jet liner it take tens of thousand of people at Boeing and another tens of people in many subcontractor that employ many more people. Even if you could cut that 20,000 to 30,000 thousand people down to only 2,000 to 3,000 people using new technology which are labor savers. It might be great down here to increase productive of the labor force, but it would still be too many people to be sending into space to make a colony self-sufficient. The reason that I use the shuttle and the Boeing 777 or 747 commercial jet liner as my example is, I know from personal experience what it would take to build those things. I have worked in the manufacturing department in making air craft or more pacifically, the landing gear and I know what it takes to build some thing like that. It called having infrastructure like government road to carry the resources or other business to help Boeing build there air craft, etc. Although you won't be committing that many people to one project, you will have to dedicate that many or more people to multiple sets of projects and if you can't do it, then you idea won't work.

Anybody that thinks that the Mars colony can be self-sufficient with 10 people or 100 people or even 1,000 people are in dream world, because it not going to happen.

We are not going to sneak up on this thing and colonize Mars or develop a self-sustaining colony on Mars on some incremental level. The more people you put on Mars, the more expensive it gets to keep them there and that just the way it is.

We are going to have to attack this problem from the front and decide that what we want to do and hit it head on.

Larry,

Commodore · 2004-08-20 18:45:04

Just to build the present day shuttle or Boeing 777 or 747 commercial jet liner it take tens of thousand of people at Boeing and another tens of people in many subcontractor that employ many more people. Even if you could cut that 20,000 to 30,000 thousand people down to only 2,000 to 3,000 people using new technology which are labor savers. It might be great down here to increase productive of the labor force, but it would still be too many people to be sending into space to make a colony self-sufficient. The reason that I use the shuttle and the Boeing 777 or 747 commercial jet liner as my example is, I know from personal experience what it would take to build those things. I have worked in the manufacturing department in making air craft or more pacifically, the landing gear and I know what it takes to build some thing like that. It called having infrastructure like government road to carry the resources or other business to help Boeing build there air craft, etc. Although you won't be committing that many people to one project, you will have to dedicate that many or more people to multiple sets of projects and if you can't do it, then you idea won't work.

Yeah, but how much of that could be automated?

You know what the great thing about Mars? No Labor Unions.

Theres a lot of work to be done in the automating and miniaturizing manufacturing before we can have sprawling factories.

I think alot of it is going to be done be small machine shops. And of course to most important component, the software to run the machines and machines that make the machines, can all be writen on Earth.

It amazed me just how quickly we could solve and upgrade problems ont he rovers by simply beaming up a patch.

Martian Republic · 2004-08-20 20:01:34

Just to build the present day shuttle or Boeing 777 or 747 commercial jet liner it take tens of thousand of people at Boeing and another tens of people in many subcontractor that employ many more people. Even if you could cut that 20,000 to 30,000 thousand people down to only 2,000 to 3,000 people using new technology which are labor savers. It might be great down here to increase productive of the labor force, but it would still be too many people to be sending into space to make a colony self-sufficient. The reason that I use the shuttle and the Boeing 777 or 747 commercial jet liner as my example is, I know from personal experience what it would take to build those things. I have worked in the manufacturing department in making air craft or more pacifically, the landing gear and I know what it takes to build some thing like that. It called having infrastructure like government road to carry the resources or other business to help Boeing build there air craft, etc. Although you won't be committing that many people to one project, you will have to dedicate that many or more people to multiple sets of projects and if you can't do it, then you idea won't work.
Yeah, but how much of that could be automated?
You know what the great thing about Mars? No Labor Unions.
Theres a lot of work to be done in the automating and miniaturizing manufacturing before we can have sprawling factories.
I think alot of it is going to be done be small machine shops. And of course to most important component, the software to run the machines and machines that make the machines, can all be writen on Earth.
It amazed me just how quickly we could solve and upgrade problems ont he rovers by simply beaming up a patch.

You missed the point.

Even if you could do a 90% automation out of 100% of what it take to manufacture things right now, the 10% that left, would be more than enough to sink any Mars colony and it self-sufficiency. But, I have worked with NC equipment and conventional machines to manufacture things. Although these NC/ Lathe, NC/Mills, NC/Muti-Axis or Numeric Control Machines can do more than Conventional Machines of Lathe, Mills, drill presses when it come to making things, they are also broke down more often too. Then you generally have to have a maintaince man fix it and he generally has to have the part to do that. But, if your on Mars and he orders that part from Earth. Well there could be a slight time delay by the time he get that part that he needs and when he can turn the machine back on. That assuming that they have the part in hand to send him in the first place. If they don't, then they have to manufacture it and send it to him at the next window of opportunity or launch window time. The problem is, the more complicated the machines are, the more they tend to break too or fail.

But, let me give you an example:

We had these NC/Machines. They have to function properly, because they have a program that they have to go by and if they don't, you have a problem. It could be anything from a circuit board, to a bad switch or stop or faulty programming. But, we had this NC/Machines that drilled a hole and decided to index without exiting the hole it drilled in metal. It wipe out the part, the drill, messed up both the head of the NC/Machine and even the fixture that was holding the part. So not only did they have to replace the circuit board that caused the problem, they had to replace a hole lot more that got broke after the malfunction of the machine. As much as I like technology and I push them in my post an lot, I know there limitation too. NC equipment of robotics is not a catch all for every thing that need to be done or could be done in space or for the Martian colony.

We also three Sundstrand of similar design that were conventional Mills. But, with conventional Mills, the operator can compensate for a bad machine or one that worn out. At least up to a point that is. The operator knows those machines, he can compensate for the way the machine will rock during the machining process and still get good part of those machines. If all else fails, you start playing musical parts between the different Sundstrands. You pull an engine off of one and you put it on one of the other and then you can start swapping out circuit boards between the Sundstrands to get one of them working. This is very labor intensive to do that, but on earth is works, but on Mars where you have a limited labor force. WELL, what can I tell you?

These are the kind of problems that your going to run into and just "SLAPPING A TECHNOLOGY FIX ON IT", just is not going to fix it.

Larry,

John Creighton · 2004-08-20 20:19:48

Well, the obvious hope is to either have machines that don't break down or robots that can fix the machines that break down. If you don't think it will ever come then you have no imagination.

Past thread of interest:

http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … 4]Critical Mass

Relavent Links:
http://sources.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advan … tents]1980 NASA reporthttp://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3053]Modern NASA report

MarsDog · 2004-08-20 20:22:41

It amazed me just how quickly we could solve and upgrade problems ont he rovers by simply beaming up a patch

Intelligent, innovative, motivated people make the crucial difference.
A regimented worker is encouraged to incremental improvement.
There were smart people a long time ago, such as Archemedis and Aristotle, but the industrial revolution came later because the average intelligence was too low. Similarly, present day industrial development could use a lot more intelligence.

John Creighton · 2004-08-20 20:38:10

Intelligent, innovative, motivated people make the crucial difference.
A regimented worker is encouraged to incremental improvement.
There were smart people a long time ago, such as Archemedis and Aristotle, but the industrial revolution came later because the average intelligence was too low. Similarly, present day industrial development could use a lot more intelligence.

Okay, but what is required to accomplish this? People clearly go to school long enough, especially if someone gets more then one post secondary degree. It is amazing how much training people think you need these days. What ever happened to learn by experience or on the JOB training?

You could require people to lean more in high school. This would probably require more teachers to have masters degrees, which would cost more money. It would also put more stress on students in an important stage in there development.

Other alternatives may be new drugs to enhance intelligence, reduce stress and increase motivation. Another alternative is improving human computer interaction with more intelligent software and direct brain computer links. Imagine the computer could access any expert system just by thinking about it.

The workforce is clearly getting smatter, we are clearly developing more tools to accomplish this and only time will tell the end result. The problem is there is know limit, the smarter people become the higher standard they aim for, the more complex theorems become and in the end people are going to need longer life spans and a better memory to digest it all.

One thing often overlooked is what will happen to are present day concepts of ownership and class hierarchies as things become easier to produce. Who is entitled to the wealth and who is going to fight the wars? Did you know that genetic computer algorithms with very little human input have infringed on many current and past patterns. They have also generated many new patters. The world is changing more then we are aware.

comstar03 · 2004-08-20 23:24:47

Objective is to explore into our solar system and also have the capabiliteis to move large scale facilities to remote locations within our solar system.

The Moon has many advantages : a permanent base could hold development personnel, crew training teams, scientific personnel, that could be up to 100.

You design an automated construction workforce to build, assemble, dis-assemble, transport, and re-engineer components, vehicles and modules sent from earth to build the moon base.

I could name CEVs and Also specialist vehicles that could be developed, The spacedock facilities on the moon could finish one CEV and commence developed of the second while the first just enter service.

Also the Development tools and control systems required for the automated workforce would provide experience for expansion to mars, for a large permanent settlement for the Mars colony.

deagleninja · 2004-08-21 00:01:40

All these dreams of Moon/Mars colonies pumping out starships is great, but rather unrealistic. As Bill White has said many times here, these thing can't happen unless there is a profit motive. No one is going to invest billions of dollars for these things unless they can turn a profit.

Obviously we need a lot of people to work and maintain these colonies with or without robotic labor, so what is the answer? Tourism. The private sector will soon make a stab at building a lunar resort of sorts. Should that prove even moderatly successful, then a Martian community isn't far behind. The japanesse have been looking into the feasibilty of this on the Moon for decades and I believe it's only a matter of time.

MarsDog · 2004-08-21 01:39:24

No one is going to invest billions of dollars for these things unless they can turn a profit.

Pyramids. Stonehenge, Easter Island statues, Maya temples, and the Apollo Moon Program. Men usually marry women for reasons other than $$$.
-
Also add worldwide social assistance, such as the Red Cross.

comstar03 · 2004-08-21 02:51:41

MarsDog,

You're Right, and deagleninja, yes the start up costs are high, but the returns are as well, becuase the first out there become the controller for the resources, Thus can get the return required for the startup costs and profit margin.

It can be done, I am not going to spell it out for your in great detail ( i could , but i am not ). Put it this way, Mars in not the objective it is self-reliance ( not relying on earth and the facilities on earth to expand the exploration )

Once that happens, the overall costs for maintaining and expand come down, and down, and then you improve the processes, transport, and communication.

It can happen , including , mining ore transporters, and Manned explorer vessels, and also launch unmanned explorer vessels and probe carriers.

if humanity thought that things are unrealistic then we would have not expand the frontiers from our dark ages, But that is not Humanity, we will grow and expand into space, and nothing will stop us , including other humans.

Grypd · 2004-08-21 05:25:18

If we want to start with this automated telerobotic means of developing the Moon it has one great advantage it can start now. With the robots extracting resources from the Lunar surface these resources can be sold to the consortiums that wish to have a prescence on the Moon and with the eventual use of Mass drivers the consortiums in space. But like everything it will take a long time to develop its an incremental pace, The greatest cost will be startup. But as in all things it takes political will and money. Somehow I doubt it will be there for a while and I only think a major space organisation could do it, the initial costs are too high for any private operator.

deagleninja · 2004-08-21 07:01:55

Comstar03 and Grypd, just about everyone here thinks this will one day happen, but not anytime soon.

Here's why:

The first back to the Moon or on to Mars isn't going to control either body. It is very expensive to just get there let alone bring along a personal military to protect said resource. Also, what would happen to the controling country here on Earth. Picture China saying that it was going to the Moon to exploit its resources and no one else better get in their way. Perhaps most importantly, there isn't oil on the Moon or Mars (as far as we know) or any other resource worth investing billions of dollars to reach, extract, and transport back. This is why I argue that tourism will open the door, because the only thing you can't get back here on Earth much cheaper is the view.

Don't get me wrong, the resources produced by any colony is going to be it's lifeblood for that colony. However, the Earth doesn't need ore or solar energy bad enough to get it elsewhere.

Comstar03, the rewards are there, but they aren't as tangible as a lump of steel or watt of solar energy. The true benefit of settling either place in an effort large enough that the colony will eventually be independent and grow under it's own power, is that whoever does it first will directly reap the new technology invented on a challenging frontier. Problem is, since it is new and alien, we can only guess what that might be (and people don't usually invest on guesses).

Everything has to be done in baby-steps. Put people on the Moon or Mars and you then have a greater need for faster/safer transport to and from. Large amounts of people had to travel to California before the governement thought it important to lay railroad tracks from coast to coast.

comstar03 · 2004-08-21 08:35:39

deagleninja,

Sometimes, I see you think in a 2D landscape, you don't see the 3D opportunities, Simply put it is not the cost you should be looking at, but the Long term development of space, technology, and innovation.

It will take time to develop the infrastructure for a different space programme , than the conventional programme, when the ground components are completed, then you work on the LEO components and re-supply mechanisms.

deagleninja,

You build components for the moon here on earth ( for testing and staff training and evaluation ) and blend them with income- generating earth based activities, Supporting and the ground testing and research, and stockpiling or supplies before commencement of launches.

By the time, the governments realise that they have a large private enterprise development in space they will be implementing there plan for LEO, Moon, Mars and Beyond. Then its catch-up for the governments and suppliers. You will understand when it happens.

Martian Republic · 2004-08-21 08:40:05

Well, the obvious hope is to either have machines that don't break down or robots that can fix the machines that break down. If you don't think it will ever come then you have no imagination.
Past thread of interest:
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … 4]Critical Mass

Relavent Links:
http://sources.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advan … tents]1980 NASA reporthttp://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3053]Modern NASA report

I have plenty of imagination, but that not the point.

But, you raise two possible options to your plan to see happen and become reality.

The first one is hoping the machines won't break down. Electronic component have standard of what a failure rate should be per thousand units and a how long it suppose to last before the unit fails or ware out. In the physical world where you have moving parts that rub against each other. You will have ware and tear on the machine and will ware out and break down. These are physical laws that govern this universe and we can not change those laws of physic. So not having machine breaking down is not an option. But, we can design machines that break down less often with new techniques.

Your second answer is have robots that can fix things. I am assuming that we are talking about AI or artificial intelligence in robots. Your assuming that a program in machine language can solve problems like a human can. Although AI can emulate thinking process, it can duplicate the thinking process. An AI emulating the thinking process is basically a series of "If then or else" commands along with other types of commands to run our robot that can fix things. Now that robot can only operate with the perimeter of that AI emulator to fix something and anything that out side that AI emulator it can't fix. Just to drill a simple hole on an NC/Machine it might take ten to twenty commands to drill that hole or lines of code and this is on a fix location too. Our robot is going to have to be mobile like a human is so it can service those machines and the line of code will go up dramatically too. Our robot that fixes thing has to have a dependable power supply. Because if it doesn't, it will drop the program that in RAM Memory and have to reboot and go back to "O" point or a point of references. But, even if it doesn't shut down or lose it power with program as big as it needs to be will be subject to fault errors or just miss on of the execution lines in the code or even a hole section of the code. But, back to our NC/Machine when they proof a tape to do a new job which may have hundreds of thousand of lines of code, which I admit is one of the bigger programs that they write to do a job and it on a fix perimeters too or boundaries. It will generally take several months to program it and take it out to the machine and run and modify the program and run it again until they get right. Your probably talking about a tenfold increase in lines of code for a mobile unit to do the same thing and that just one project too. Your going to have thousands or tens programs to do different things. So you will have to add that to the list of programs that you have to keep on line. Some of this can be shorten a little bit by having subroutines to perform certain operation that are common between programs, but it will still be a hug program that will be a work in progress and pronged to errors. Like your home computer is down is. While our robot that fix thing is fixing thing, it too can develop a problem too. So we need a second robot that can fix the first robot that broke down.

I could go through a hole list of things that that robot that fixes thing would have do and so would need a program so it could do it. This is just a short list of things that our robot has to do. Lose an allen wrench, strip the threads out hole, dinged up the head of a screw or broke off the head of a screw, but threaded part is still in the hole. I don't know what kind of code that they would have to write for just these problems that our robot going to run into that humans take care of day in and day out and don't think anything about it.

Larry,

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2004-08-20 10:46:57

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#27 2004-08-20 11:16:44

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#28 2004-08-20 11:29:30

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#29 2004-08-20 11:53:14

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#30 2004-08-20 12:20:34

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#31 2004-08-20 12:25:44

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#32 2004-08-20 12:51:12

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#33 2004-08-20 12:54:30

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#34 2004-08-20 13:04:24

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#35 2004-08-20 13:37:22

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#36 2004-08-20 14:02:07

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#37 2004-08-20 17:53:20

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#38 2004-08-20 18:45:04

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#39 2004-08-20 20:01:34

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#40 2004-08-20 20:19:48

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#41 2004-08-20 20:22:41

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#42 2004-08-20 20:38:10

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#43 2004-08-20 23:24:47

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#44 2004-08-21 00:01:40

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#45 2004-08-21 01:39:24

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#46 2004-08-21 02:51:41

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#47 2004-08-21 05:25:18

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#48 2004-08-21 07:01:55

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#49 2004-08-21 08:35:39

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#50 2004-08-21 08:40:05

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

Board footer