Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

Mad Grad Student · 2004-08-05 22:14:34

http://space.com/missionlaunches/davinc … ]space.com

The X Prize is no longer just a one man show staring Burt Rutan, the Da Vinci Project, a Canadian team launching their rocket from a helium ballon at 80,000 feet, has now filed to attempt to win the X Prize! Scaled Composites can launch on September 29th, Da Vinci will make their first launch on October 2nd. Despite the three day head start, whichever team has the faster turn-around time will be the winner, meaning that Scaled is still not quite a shoo-in.

I almost don't want to be cynical on a subject like this, but I've seen the pics of WildFire, da Vinci's rocket, and it looks like Apollo 1 after the fire. I know they want publicity, but why did they roll it out when it's obviously not finished? Time will tell who's system will win. May the best rocket scientist win!

SpaceNut · 2004-08-06 07:31:41

Do not forget that there are at least two other teams equaly as close to doing test launches.
Also winning the prise will probably be the end even if the teams are successful with the multiple turn around times.

There just does not seem to be a profit to generate the interest level required for any of the teams to start booking tourist flights just yet.

There are other teams that are more interested in getting more tourist activity than to winning the prise also very close to doing flights as well.

If one of these companies or groups were to design an appropriate CEV capsule for Nasa purchase to be used on SDV, Atlas And On Delta's. Now that would be a great feat or coup for that company or group.

SBird · 2004-08-06 12:16:58

What I want to know is who they're going to con into flying Wildfire? They haven't had anything even remotely resembling a full scale test of their technology and they've move their laungh date up with a pilot on the first actual test of the integrated platform.

I wish the team the best of luck but I'm afraid that they're going to need a spatula to recover the pilot after the first flight.

C M Edwards · 2004-08-06 14:01:13

As I understand it, they already have a pilot, and have from the beginning of thei project.

And as for recovering him after the flight, I think enough of that ingenious cloth heat shield will survive that all you'll have to do is wrap the body in it.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-12 07:58:55

Some good news may be coming out of the destruction of the rubicon.

Forks: National publicity brings acclaim -- and possibly investors' bucks -- to rocketeers building a new Rubicon
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/sited … tml/170414

"The result: A slew of investors have e-mailed the cash-strapped company, saying they are interested in making an investment in the partners' dream of developing space tourism."

SpaceNut · 2004-08-13 07:33:28

X-prize contestant still in the hunt for the 10 million.

Canadian Arrow Drop Test Scheduled for Saturday
http://www.canadianarrow.com/

http://www.hobbyspace.com/AAdmin....04.html

Martian Republic · 2004-08-13 21:07:18

Do not forget that there are at least two other teams equaly as close to doing test launches.
Also winning the prise will probably be the end even if the teams are successful with the multiple turn around times.
There just does not seem to be a profit to generate the interest level required for any of the teams to start booking tourist flights just yet.
There are other teams that are more interested in getting more tourist activity than to winning the prise also very close to doing flights as well.
If one of these companies or groups were to design an appropriate CEV capsule for Nasa purchase to be used on SDV, Atlas And On Delta's. Now that would be a great feat or coup for that company or group.

I'm afraid your probably right.

The only possible short term solution for keeping private carriers into space after the X-Prize would be as alternate to the shuttle and Russian space craft to ISS. That assuming that they could reach the ISS, which most of them can't, so they would have to be re-engineered to do that and then the cost would be height too. You also might have to have government financing too, to do that.

So we back where we started from.

Larry,

GCNRevenger · 2004-08-13 23:21:46

It comes down in large extent to the physics and chemistry of the proposition. Chemical rocket engines have reached their limits of performance, they aren't going to get much better, already operating at >80% of the theoretical maximum for the lightest fuel in the universe (hydrogen). This is not going to change until the advent of high-hypersonic Scramjets or invention of crazy Metastable fuels or compact Fusion reactors.

Hence, no rocket will ever be able to reach orbit that is not very large because of the fuel needed and/or very complex with advanced materials, high pressure/temperature engines, complicated engineering. SpaceShipOne would need to be on the order of hundred(s) of times larger. Even using the air-launch scheme like Scaled Composits, no vehicle of useful size and payload can be built that will fit on a 747 jumbo jet. Since no startup has the money, manpower, or infrastructure to design very large or very complicated orbital vehicles... they won't.

Furthremore, it is unreasonable to believe in any small time outfit with limited experience, manpower, and facilities to develop a vehicle along the lines of what NASA wants the CEV to be. Nobody outside the big names (Boeing, LockMart, Orbital, etc) has a chance of making somthing like that.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-16 06:06:12

Canadian Ansari X Prize Entrant Takes the Plunge in Test
http://space.com/missionlaunches/xprize … 40814.html

Canadian Arrow team of rocketeers has moved one step closer to launching its own manned spacecraft with the successful parachute drop test of a crew capsule today.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-16 13:01:51

Try, try again: Space Transport Corp http://www.space-transport.com/ ., the Washington-based rocket team whose rocket blew up last weekend, is targeting Sept. 12 for the next test launch from the Olympic Peninsula, says Phillip Storm, the company's president.

"We’re going to fabricate two more identical Rubicon rockets. ... We're going to do another engine test in early September," Storm writes in an e-mail.

Storm says telemetry from the launch of Rubicon 1 indicates that the attitude control system "was fighting to keep it straight, even though the rocket was being torn apart."

"The rocket held in there pretty good even though one of the engines exploded," Storm writes. "I’m fairly confident a pilot could have thrown the parachute and been OK. The capsule was catastrophically damaged only on impact with the water. We’ll come up with some extra safety measures to ensure a command is sent for parachute deployment in the event of a failure."

Rxke · 2004-08-16 16:29:36

The pace is definitely quickening, http://www.hobbyspace.com/Links/RLVNews.html]RLV News has never been so busy before...

New startups, new contracts, new launchfacilities...

Space.com boom in the making?

SpaceNut · 2004-08-17 10:10:53

A study done by Futron corporation on Space tourism and marketing.
http://www.futron.com/spacean....ult.htm

SpaceNut · 2004-08-17 13:50:38

Though the falcon is not part of the competition it is however dealing with the same regulartory laws as a commercial industry.

Falcon rocket rides slow road toward flight
SpaceX deals with hurdles associated
with engine and environmental rules

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5725500/

SpaceNut · 2004-08-18 05:04:11

The Ansari X Prize hopes to do the same for space tourism. Scaled Composites’ chief engineer, Burt Rutan, believes that eventually passengers could experience a brief space voyage at a cost of $30,000 to $50,000 per person, with prices dropping in the long run to $10,000 to $12,000 each.
It is unclear what effect the popularity of the Ansari X Prize will have on U.S. government space spending.

http://www.easttexasreview.com/story.htm?StoryID=1855

comstar03 · 2004-08-18 06:58:14

All these competitors, are toy developers because what they are doing won't expand the space race for humanity, We need a real effort from Private Industry on a $3-5B Budget per year to build Infrastructure, ground launch facilities, development facilities, and Training academy for crews, ground and specialist personnel. Probably 50+ Multi-national corporations / Individuals funding $60-100M each in kind or cash to a non-profit research foundation for space development. ( Taxable deduction )

That is changing the fabric of the space race.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-18 07:45:57

All to service who, the elite of Nasa or the super wealthy. I do not think so. Space should be for everybody willing and wanting to go.

Yes the rockets are small but the knowledge that is gained by those that are attempting. This is done because it was not shared out of fear by The military, or Nations leaders and by Nasa. Not to mention the big guys in Lockheed and Boeing wanting to keep there piece of the pie.

So yes they are recreating the wheel but learning as they go to keep design, launch, operations and manufacturing costs down. This in its self will open up markets.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-18 12:32:35

• Aug. 17, 2004 | 6 p.m. ET
Space-race updates on the World Wide Web:
• Flight International: Could SpaceShipOne go orbital?
http://www.flightinternational.com/fi_issu....ode=106
• X Prize Foundation: Argentine rocketeers test escape tower
http://www.xprize.com/press_r....0040813
• Masten Space Systems: New entrant in suborbital market
http://masten-space.com/
• The Guardian: Space travel goes sailing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/space/article … 27,00.html

Mad Grad Student · 2004-08-19 22:11:04

Wow. Considering that for the first time ever the private industry is entering space with no help from any governement there are a lot of negative comments floating around here. I frankly am very ticked off with these statements; SSO is a toy? Maybe. In the same sense that the DC-X was a toy. Or perhaps in the same sense that the Mercury Redstone flights were utterly meaningless or that Sputnik 2 (Satelite that carried Laika) didn't really carry any significance. The X Prize vehicles are precursors to what will come down the road.

In one sense it will be far easier for the private industry to get into space than it ever was for the governments. All the groudwork is already laid for them. Engines, fuel tanks, structures, heat shields, and a host of other items are old hat now, all you really have to do is know where to look and put part A with part B. And they have an enormous motivator on them constantly, profit. For governemnt space programs, there is no real in-you-face reason to do things cheaply. Regardless of how much you spend on, say, a space station, your paycheck isn't going to be affected, for private companies, everything will need to be done cheaply just to stay afloat.

Scaled Composites spent about $25 million and two years on developing both SpaceShipOne and White Knight. That is a thiny fraction of what NASA would take to get the job done. In fact, and this really shows what a sorry state they're in right now, it's debatable that NASA would even be capible of building such a system while trying to construct the ISS at the same time. They would eventually spend a billion dollars or so on it, have cost overruns and schedule problems fly out of control, and just call the whole thing off, in all likelihood.

The private industry is capible of putting thousands of people into space and populating LEO. Beyond that, alas, it's the government's domain, and will remain so until they blaze the trail. Still, we are at the dawn of a new age here, please don't be so myopic as to think that Everyone will look at SpaceShipOne, think "Wow, cool!" and walk away. Scaled is coming.

Believe in the Rally Monkey! :laugh:

Rxke · 2004-08-20 00:42:23

Believe in the Rally Monkey! :laugh:

Heehhee..

Welll, judging from the latest news, a lot of commercial non-related businesses do. All of a sudden there's lots of sponsor-money being handed out. Or rather... Probably they don't really believe in it but (rightfully) judge those vehicules are a great way to advertize.

Now, imagine Coca-Cola or Marlboro or some other really big guys starting to sponsor, like in Formula One...

Ain't gonna happen tomorrow, they're probably waiting out, see how dangerous this all turns out, too many deadly accidents wouldn't probably fit with their company profile (hmmmm... OTOH... cigarettes aren't that healthy either..) but the X-Prize Cup could become an interesting place for teams earning money that way.
If done right, this could be as popular, hence profitable as drag-racing events etc.

Although the idea of a 'MarlboroShipOne' doesn't strike me as too attractive from a 'purist' view, things like that will surely happen. Already it's the Ansari X-prize, and we now have the GoldenPalace.com spacecraft, (Da Vinci)... more will surely follow...

Rxke · 2004-08-20 00:51:45

We need a real effort from Private Industry on a $3-5B Budget per year to build Infrastructure, ground launch facilities, development facilities, and Training academy for crews, ground and specialist personnel.

Infrastructure and ground launch facilities are or were all related to specific craft, so not much use to try and build some kind of generic stuff.

Anyhow, SpaceX *is* building their own platform. But I bet their facility will turn out quite a bit cheaper than similar stuff, built by government contractors.Same thing with the new private launch-sites. Infrastructure? Slap toghether som hangars and offices. Most X-Prize contenders "control-rooms" will probably fit in a large trailer...

About a trainingcentre, one of the Canadian teams is doing that too.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-23 05:26:51

If anything becomes of the xprize I hope it maybe a scare to the Big guys on the rocketry block and Nasa. For if any achieves orbital status, look out for private industry may soon to follow.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-23 11:43:38

Dangers in launch: Saskatoon potential target should rocket stray

http://www.canada.com/saskato....c7e9657

The da Vinci Project team, which is poised to launch a manned rocket from Kindersley in October, may be in for a rude awakening -- and Saskatoon should be prepared in the event the rocket becomes a missile, says a University of Saskatchewan physicist.

mboeller · 2004-08-23 12:23:36

If anything becomes of the xprize I hope it maybe a scare to the Big guys on the rocketry block and Nasa. For if any achieves orbital status, look out for private industry may soon to follow.

I don't think that you need the XPrize to scare the big guys. IMHO they are already (slightly) afraid of SpaceX. SpaceX promises to launch around 4.5 tonnes into GTO for around US $20Mio instead of the around US $80Mio the other companies charge. If they can really fulfil this promise then the big guys will be very afraid.

C M Edwards · 2004-08-23 13:06:05

Dangers in launch: Saskatoon potential target should rocket stray
http://www.canada.com/saskatoon/starpho … ...c7e9657

IMHO, Llewelyn is an old stormcrow.

He should learn the proper form for prophesies of this nature: "Either the balloon will launch, and Saskatoon will face destruction, or the balloon will not launch and Saskatoon will be spared." Llewelyn wants to have it both ways at the same time. :down:

SpaceNut · 2004-08-23 13:21:08

Then on the other side of the coin for Human the
Da Vinci rocket pilot faces real dangers.

http://www.canada.com/saskato....2ae54ca

Sophisticated aerodynamics, physics and engineering will propel Brian Feeney's attempt at the world's first private space mission, but these measures won't eliminate the danger of his planned launch from Kindersley and subsequent return to Earth.

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#1 2004-08-05 22:14:34

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#2 2004-08-06 07:31:41

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#3 2004-08-06 12:16:58

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#4 2004-08-06 14:01:13

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#5 2004-08-12 07:58:55

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#6 2004-08-13 07:33:28

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#7 2004-08-13 21:07:18

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#11 2004-08-16 16:29:36

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#12 2004-08-17 10:10:53

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