Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

Rxke · 2004-07-27 15:22:01

they have never demonstrated a manned Soyuz hyperbolic re-entry.... the

The article seems to suggest they want to do some kind of aerobreaking (fishy, eh?)

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-27 15:22:04

Oh no, I mean the mission will cost $500M not counting development... i'm thinking how much it will cost to launch a modified Soyuz, a LEM-style lander, and two TLI stages powerd by storable (likly hypergolic) propellants on the Onega (~$60M each?) rocket. I'm quite sure that if you add up the development dollars, it will run into the low billions at least.

Hyperbolic reentry simply means entry from a highly eliptical orbit, which is a substantially higher speed than entry via a circular orbit.

Rxke · 2004-07-27 15:28:42

Hyperbolic reentry simply means entry from a highly eliptical orbit, which is a substantially higher speed than entry via a circular orbit.

Yes, I know, but in the article they say to do some kind of 'dipping' into the atmosphere, so possibly aerobraking to circularize the orbit... Before going down 'for real'

Palomar · 2004-07-27 15:29:12

*Since starting this thread I've been thinking about Apollo (especially Apollo *8*) throughout the day. Trying to imagine that experience -- seeing the Moon growing larger in the windows, then watching its oh-so-close surface sliding past below you. Going 'round the dark side of the Moon, witnessing Earthrise.

You can't put a dollar value on an experience like that.

I can't help wondering who'll be the first woman to orbit the Moon.

As for landing excursions: Very dangerous, as we know. Does anyone really think the tourist thing'll go that far?

I'd still rather get a move-on to Mars of course. But it's fun to consider the possibility of tourist trips to the far side of the Moon and back. :laugh:

--Cindy

Soyuz · 2004-07-27 15:30:33

I would guess the russians may be able to pull it off for less than 100 mil (circumlunar). They have a basis to work from and they know it works: Zond. You buy yourself a proton rocket for 50 mil and buy a modified Soyuz for 10mil. And you use 40 mil to modify the soyuz and the proton. You make a smaller version of the orbital module and you reduce the crew to two: a pilot and the tourist. I also would drop the ISS part of the mission. Remember that the russians pulled this off before: http://www.astronautix.com/project/lunarl1.htm]Lunar L1

Rxke · 2004-07-27 15:44:06

Thanks. Very interesting stuff.

" The 7K-L1 then made the first successful double skip trajectory, dipping into the earth's atmosphere over Antarctica, slowing from 11 km/sec to suborbital velocity, then skipping back out into space before making a final re-entry onto Soviet territory"

(parachute failed, however)

7k-L1 was a module for manned operations, flying unmanned

Rxke · 2004-07-27 15:48:57

They did one fully successful flight, that could've been manned. But sometimes re-entries botched, leading to 20-g landings. Ouch.

Of course, certain techs (esp. launcher) have matured seriously since then...

BWhite · 2004-07-27 16:12:07

Maybe the Russian do have a http://www.astronautix.com/articles/theghoax.htm]lander after all.

Very sketchy information but the idea that the Soviets erased history after losing to Apollo doesn't seem too far-fetched.

But who knows?

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-27 16:35:09

I think you might have forgotten to adjust for inflation Soyuz. The base minimum Soyuz-TMA costs around $50M a shot and probobly doesn't have enough fuel for TEI, the Proton or Zenit-II cost around $100M, give or take. The Russians have no TLI stage available or built, requiring it to be made from scratch... I can't see them doing that for less than tens of millions either. And then you have to talk cost for the Soyuz modifications.

SpaceNut · 2004-07-27 19:15:34

So even if you can find all of these museum pieces best case and reverse engineer all the given parameters for the design as a first pass. Using this info for the real enhanced design of these would be the way to go.

bolbuyk · 2004-07-29 06:43:41

They need a lander for the Moon. We're budgeting billions to develop a new one, and it will take several years to develop.
Fly around the Moon? Perhaps. Land on the Moon, not quite.
To fly around the Moon is still pretty cool. If people will pay $12 - $20 million to stay at ISS for a week, how much more will they pay to add a lunar circum-navigation?
= = =
Offer a package deal to tourists. Pay us NOW for a circum-navigation Apollo 10 style with no landing and you get a guaranteed reservation for when we later build a lander.
Use the proft from the above to pay for lander development as a joint venture with the Russian government, who would love to land on the Moon before NASA got back there.
Besides, they could even sell media rights. :;):

Copying a Zond is launching a Proton-rocket with the stage needed for the Soyuz (or manned Zond) to make a shot around the moon. This requires just 7 days and there's no landing ar even no orbit. Cost's will be higher due to more hardware and the extra cosmonauts that have to be paid vfor their taxi-tour. But eventually their mission can be fruitfull for other reasons. If this cannot, then the moon-tourist has to pay the whole smash, I guess about $100 million. I think there are candidates.

bolbuyk · 2004-07-29 06:47:25

Hyperbolic reentry simply means entry from a highly eliptical orbit, which is a substantially higher speed than entry via a circular orbit.
Yes, I know, but in the article they say to do some kind of 'dipping' into the atmosphere, so possibly aerobraking to circularize the orbit... Before going down 'for real'

Zonds did this succesfully with complete zoo's aboard.

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-29 08:47:32

This would still not be an easy-easy task, and you would need to risk putting people on the Proton or have to launch Soyuz ($50M) to dock with it. I can't see any way that this is going to cost under a signifigant fraction of a billion dollars.

BWhite · 2004-07-29 08:50:50

This would still not be an easy-easy task, and you would need to risk putting people on the Proton or have to launch Soyuz ($50M) to dock with it. I can't see any way that this is going to cost under a signifigant fraction of a billion dollars.

With soft currencies like the rouble, fixing a price in dollars seems risky. $100 million in US dollars or Euros may well buy many more roubles than the exchange rates published in the Wall Street Journal might suggest.

JimM · 2004-07-29 09:10:58

With soft currencies like the rouble, fixing a price in dollars seems risky.

Don't you mean, fixing a price in anything except dollars, euros, pounds or yens is risky?

BWhite · 2004-07-29 09:38:50

With soft currencies like the rouble, fixing a price in dollars seems risky.
Don't you mean, fixing a price in anything except dollars, euros, pounds or yens is risky?

Yup.

Except the "value" of large blocks of hard currency spent in Russia is most likely greater than the official exchange rate rather then less than the official rate. $100 million may go farther than we think.

Soyuz · 2004-08-02 08:34:23

The space review has a nice discription of this plan:http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1]Soyuz to the moon?.
With http://www.thespacereview.com/gallery/7]illustrations.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-02 09:09:24

The problem of how we solve to be able to do manned flight will come but making a profit by government run agencies will not.
That is where private industry must be allowed access to all technical design specifications maybe for a price but in order to allow a stepping stone of developement to occur not a reengineering to developement.
Also the next question is to what market will generate a profit one of tourism, mining, or just plain old settlement?

SpaceNut · 2004-08-02 13:39:26

How can we get Nasa to implement such ideas?

The nations space programs right now can not purchase anything of the kind from Russia regardless of the price.

How can we get the private industry to go for such concepts?

Could we buy from our Eurpean freinds the Automated Transfer Vehicle or do we have that same issue as before?

bolbuyk · 2004-08-04 05:33:57

The space review has a nice discription of this plan:http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1]Soyuz to the moon?.
With http://www.thespacereview.com/gallery/7]illustrations.

Looks really exciting, very realistic.

Rxke · 2004-08-04 06:28:20

To me, all of a sudden, it looks really expensive... In a "ain't gonna happen" kind of way

SpaceNut · 2004-08-04 06:55:53

Well one approach to high rising cost of Rockets from the big guy's is to tell them that we wish to have a price break. I'M sure they will laugh but if one is not given start shopping else where for what is needed. Even funding an upstart company for there designing of what is needed and or giving them working designs to which they would like to purchase for less would spear on competition in the industry.
I know, I'M way out there...

SpaceNut · 2004-08-04 10:18:16

I wondered just how long the russian were going to put up with Nasa and non payment for soyuz utilized to keep the ISS going. Not that much longer according to the AP. Russia Wants Payment for Space Trips
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....station

BWhite · 2004-08-04 13:20:33

To quote from SpaceNut's link:

Last year, Russian space officials said that a Progress supply ship flight cost about $22 million and a Soyuz crew capsule was slightly more expensive. At least two Soyuz ships and three Progress ships are needed each year to maintain the station and rotate its crews.

$22 million for a Progress launch and $25-$30 million for a Soyuz launch. I'd say that is cheaper than we have been discussing here.

One Proton could boost a lunar injection stage, no?

Grypd · 2004-08-04 15:08:42

It is really interesting that the russian flights where so cheap.

But the Usa will not allow Nasa mission to fly on these, Esa though is different as it has built a pad for the launch of russian rockets. This may give them an edge.

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#26 2004-07-27 15:22:01

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#27 2004-07-27 15:22:04

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#28 2004-07-27 15:28:42

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#29 2004-07-27 15:29:12

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#30 2004-07-27 15:30:33

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#31 2004-07-27 15:44:06

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#32 2004-07-27 15:48:57

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#33 2004-07-27 16:12:07

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#34 2004-07-27 16:35:09

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#35 2004-07-27 19:15:34

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#36 2004-07-29 06:43:41

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#37 2004-07-29 06:47:25

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#38 2004-07-29 08:47:32

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#39 2004-07-29 08:50:50

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#40 2004-07-29 09:10:58

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#41 2004-07-29 09:38:50

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#42 2004-08-02 08:34:23

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#43 2004-08-02 09:09:24

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#44 2004-08-02 13:39:26

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#45 2004-08-04 05:33:57

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#46 2004-08-04 06:28:20

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#47 2004-08-04 06:55:53

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#48 2004-08-04 10:18:16

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#49 2004-08-04 13:20:33

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#50 2004-08-04 15:08:42

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

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