Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

karov · 2004-07-27 18:41:27

So, the osteoplasts move in the bone matrix and turn into osteocytes. The osteocytes have many processes which reach out to comunicate with the osteoplasts. They command them to work, because the osteocytes act as mechano-sensory receptors -- regulating the bones response to stress.

THIS IS THE POINT!!!

The stress is mainly due to gravity, also excersises and impacts and vibration. The overall distribution of the bone`s strenght depends on the distribution of stress - the thigh bone is very strong cause it withstends constant presure, the wrist bones are 'softer' cause usually are under lesser stress.

The osteocytes 'feel' the stress exerted over the bones -- piesoelectrically perhubs -- with ceratin receptors.

Feed the receptors differentially as they are fed in earth`s gravity with 'falce' signal emulating the signasls they receive in full G. Than osteocytes should command the osteplasts to act the same way as the body is in 1 G and hence to hold it in full G physiological status.

Hardly this job could be done by certain chemical injected or swallowed as a pill, to exist any danger of overdosing. Rather it will represent kinda 'regional gene terapy via modified viruses' or bunch of microscopic electrostimulators implanted or later , even nanorobots attached on each osteocyte`s stress-receptor and exciting the necessary amount of signal to arrange every bone to keep earth-condition. Although, biochemical 'pill' version is not excluded. The best way which don`t need constant maintenance is simply to block the osteoclast activity to earth level of minimal strenght of the bones -- via tinkering the existing genetic-proteomic circuit, without changing of DNA, but with imposing lowest level of bone-loss in lack-of-stress conditions. Something like bone-loss immunisation.

Of course, such cellular-manipulation approach, leads to thousands of exact technologies, but in priciple is workable, I think. It has enormous application here on earth also, and I agree it is 'golden mountain' for any company which teaches how to manipulate the human bones.

No mutants, no adaptees. Normal humans everywhere from 0 to >1 G. Free roaming all the differing in acceleration sites. Every time able to go back to Earth... or to stay years in any G.

dicktice · 2004-07-27 18:49:30

karov: I doubt that constant pressure in your example of the thigh bone will cause bone buildup, like muscle does under constant stress (according to Charles Atlas, anyway). Rate of change, rather, from the vibration plate experiments, will probably turn out to be the key to bone-buildup stimulus. Hope so, because it's do-able with compact hardware.

Rxke · 2004-07-28 02:18:39

I'm a dilletant, so wild speculations here:

Given the improvements of scanning techniques, would it be possible to image (make image) a 'stress-map' of our bones?

If yes:

There is now a new technique in cancer-fighting, that uses nano (not machines, just very small stuff) metallic(?) particles that are heated remotely *from outside* the body,(I guess through some kind of inductivity-resistance/current characteristcs of the particles generating heat..., or something, 3D targeting should be 'straightforward,' using standing waves or something like that) you inject them or imbibe them, they spread through the body, and from *outside* the body they can selectively target places to make them heat up. So you can locally 'burn' a cancer w/o cutting, w/o radiation etc. Technique has one big advantage, legally: it's not a medicine, because the particles do not do anything w/o the external stimulation, so no need for lenghty medical trials...

OK... Bind these particles with medicine for bone building. With the map you have, you can put people in a 'reverse scanner:' it stimulates the particles on the exact places you want, in the exact amount you want. at certain treshold (in this case below 'frying' of course, particles activate/release chemicals.

(Where do i file patent? )

dicktice · 2004-07-28 08:18:35

Sorry, but diletants aren't elegible for patents, possibly because of all the "should be straightforward" and "something like that" statements used to describe the "invention." Very entertaining--and scary--science fiction gimmick, though. . . .

karov · 2004-07-28 09:02:17

karov: I doubt that constant pressure in your example of the thigh bone will cause bone buildup, like muscle does under constant stress (according to Charles Atlas, anyway). Rate of change, rather, from the vibration plate experiments, will probably turn out to be the key to bone-buildup stimulus. Hope so, because it's do-able with compact hardware.

dicktice, I like the vibration plates, too.

They represent really compact hardware, but the most compact hardware is the bone cellular machine itself.

I believe that comperativelly soon we`ll find way of manipulating it, so it to behave as it is under 1 G -- no matter whether cellular-receptor level stimulation emulating the right signals of full earth gravity is signal for constant or vibrational stress.

When we know what kinds of stress stimulate to keep strenght the bones in the different body regions, and how exactly this stress is percieved by the bones -- than the point is to introduce that-kind-of-stress signals in the right receptors.

I`m also dilletant in medicine, but my general knowledge doesn`t expels as impossible or funny such cellular-level hardware reprograming solution of the bone-loss problem.

Tell me exactly where I`m wrong?

karov · 2004-07-28 09:23:47

Given the improvements of scanning techniques, would it be possible to image (make image) a 'stress-map' of our bones?
If yes:
There is now a new technique in cancer-fighting, that uses nano (not machines, just very small stuff) metallic(?) particles that are heated remotely *from outside* the body,(I guess through some kind of inductivity-resistance/current characteristcs of the particles generating heat..., or something, 3D targeting should be 'straightforward,' using standing waves or something like that) you inject them or imbibe them, they spread through the body, and from *outside* the body they can selectively target places to make them heat up. So you can locally 'burn' a cancer w/o cutting, w/o radiation etc. Technique has one big advantage, legally: it's not a medicine, because the particles do not do anything w/o the external stimulation, so no need for lenghty medical trials...
OK... Bind these particles with medicine for bone building. With the map you have, you can put people in a 'reverse scanner:' it stimulates the particles on the exact places you want, in the exact amount you want. at certain treshold (in this case below 'frying' of course, particles activate/release chemicals.

Yes, something like this. We need stress-map in order to know how-much falce stimulation to exert in the different bones. Or to dosage the medicine directly en situ. Or else...

A way of 'bone-loss immunisation' could be injection of modified emptied and filled with the right genetic program , virus pointed to connect only with the bone tissue, which not to change the DNA, but to reprogram the gene switch on/off in order to stop loosing mass on earth level-compatible stress as a minimum.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.ht … ...%3D3561

http://www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.ht … ...%3D2865

To dicktice this could sound as Sci-Fi, but such techs are rapidly developing now. Many of the new means also rapidly come into practise. Also, even the most sophisticated technology or tool first appears as just an idea...

karov · 2004-07-28 09:50:38

Excuse, me when I searched the links for quotation I found exactly what I wanted to point out, from the "Redesigning cells" part of "What is life? Can we make it?" article ( the first link in my previous post ):
============================================
Systems biologists think of cells as circuits, rather like the electronic circuits of silicon chips. The individual components are genes and proteins, and they are "wired" into networks in which specific elements regulate the behaviour of other components, for example by switching them on or off. Most genes encode the instructions for making particular protein molecules, each with a definite role in cell function. One gene might regulate another gene by generating a protein that binds to the other gene and prevents it from producing its own protein. Biologists are now mapping out this network of interactions, providing them with circuit diagrams of cells. They are finding that many of the motifs familiar from electronic engineering, such as feedback loops, switches and amplifiers, appear in gene circuits too. That is why systems biologists are as likely to be computer scientists or electrical engineers as molecular biologists.

It was inevitable that, once this engineer's view of the cell began to emerge from systems biology, the engineers would start asking what they always ask: what can we make? If cell circuits can be broken down into gene modules that perform well defined functions, what happens if the modules are rewired? Can one design new modules from scratch?
==============================================
You see this is manipulation one level up in respect with the gengineering -- we don`t change the code, the content of the one`s or thing`s chromosomes, you redesign the way of communication between the same genes-proteines circuits. ( The classical genetic engineering recombines ready DNA sequences... The synthetic biology works at the basic, lowest level -- building living structures from scratch, using even more than the normal 20 aminoacids and 5 nucleotides, hence encomasing the chemical realm of the field of the widest theoretical biology...)

Such tech is exactly what seems necessary for bones` manipulation without going out of the human genetical standard.

Notice that this is just the begining. WE have already the first practical results in this respect -- READ THER ARTICLE !!!

dicktice · 2004-07-28 18:19:20

karov: Well . . . oh hell, I'm out of your league when it comes to cell manipulation. I have the engineer's conception of a living stem cell capable of tailoring itself into whatever kind of specialized cell is required in whatever surroundings and replicating however many times to produce whatever part of the body . . . in other words, a regular little microprocessor controlled factory. Describing cells as mere circuits is understating not only their complexity but their versatility, as well. Which is the reason I have to stick to hardware: I'm too old to expect to see anything along these lines carried out in practical applications. Besides, governments won't allow anything like this, even experimentally, during my remaining lifetime. So, for me, it's back to monitoring the rocket engineers as they produce and launch the next generation rocketships, the spacemen who risk their exciting lives to blast off and work in them, and communications to enable me remain in the picture for as long as possible. It was nice to read your stuff.

karov · 2004-07-29 08:32:05

karov: Well . . . oh hell, I'm out of your league when it comes to cell manipulation. I have the engineer's conception of a living stem cell capable of tailoring itself into whatever kind of specialized cell is required in whatever surroundings and replicating however many times to produce whatever part of the body . . . in other words, a regular little microprocessor controlled factory. Describing cells as mere circuits is understating not only their complexity but their versatility, as well. Which is the reason I have to stick to hardware: I'm too old to expect to see anything along these lines carried out in practical applications. Besides, governments won't allow anything like this, even experimentally, during my remaining lifetime. So, for me, it's back to monitoring the rocket engineers as they produce and launch the next generation rocketships, the spacemen who risk their exciting lives to blast off and work in them, and communications to enable me remain in the picture for as long as possible. It was nice to read your stuff.

dicktice: I share absolutelly with you your notion about the cell as versatile, ultracomplex 'factory'. (Indeed the complexity of the intercellular and whole body regulation should not be left asside in the accounts, too). Absolutelly the same thing would say I , too, for the human cells -- read more carefully my oppinions and the supporting them scientific articles -- YES, the cell is processor, factory, super-complexity of circuits, the circuits are just the basic modules of gene-protein-gene interactions. Manipuilating certain circuits, distinct modules, might be enough for certain purposes and this is the first step of usefull intervention in the regulation of the cell - AS IT IS - without remaiking the underlying genome. If you leave the DNA intact without cut-paste operations on it, without to introduce non-human genes -- this in 'ethical' sense is the best way to tinker with them, remaining entirelly within the boundaries of the human genetic standart.

My oppinion is ,perhubs, such ''cellular informatics" is enough to solve the microgravity bone-loss problem directly in its intrinsic nanowet-hardware level. No genetical engineering. No synthetic biology. No inhumane measures. Just re-regulation of the existing modules in the genetic-protein cellular processors...

In that sense I also 'stick to the hardware' in this flow of thoughts of mine -- in even more conservative manner than you. The cellular machine exist from billions of years tested in countless natural 'experiments', we don`t change it , but re-command it... The rockets and upright cradles just now emerge from the yet, too shallow&narrow pool of the human knowledge and technology...

I don`t now how old are you, but experimentally there is huge activity in the field as you see, also the market applications shouldn`t wait too long, because such cellular informatics approach doesn`t contradict with the general opposition towards the genetical engineering, and have the potential to eradicate the several thousand of inheritable genetically determined deceases keeping the one`s genome intact. The bone-loss in micro-g could be counted as genetical decease killing all that want to live outside, and as such respects the necessary medical treatment: with centrifuges, cradles and with 'false-signaling' the bones, as well.

About the private space venturers - I admire them. The growth in the private sector is the only means to reach and conquer the space. These private corporations which now do suborbitals or plan LEO hotels and lunar flybys with existing russian tech will be the consumers of cellular informatics hardware tech, the same way as of the centrifuges and cradles...

I think that my stuff is the same in principle as yours. The exact choises of tech, could not be predicted now, but discussing the theme for low-g habitation we are due to make comprehensive nomenclature of possible solutions.

dicktice · 2004-07-29 13:17:27

karov: I'll stick to the hardware in my posts regarding gravity (and the relative lack thereof) problems and possible solutions, from now on. Especially the vibrating plate experiments in Star City, follow-on parabola flights and, hopefully, success leading to longer time testing inside the SST. Private space ventures, particularly LEO attempts, will have security clearance problems due to terrorism risk, to contend with, on top of all the natural problems imposed by orbital mechanics. Perhaps you--playing the part of "space lawyer"--might wish to create some interest along these lines, by starting a thread about that. A very timely topic to introduce at this time: I don't remember seeing it in New Mars Forum previously. Just a hint to tempt the oportunist in you.

atitarev · 2004-07-29 17:42:05

Happy birthday, Dicktice and all the best!

:band:

karov · 2004-07-29 17:57:59

Happy birthday, Dicktice!!!

dicktice · 2004-08-03 10:17:22

I'll be counting backwards so we may be passing each other, timewise, between respective birthdates. . . . :hm:

Palomar · 2004-08-03 11:55:40

*Thought I'd place this item here. I thought there was a thread entitled "Effects of Weightlessness?" but I can't find it with Search. :-\

Anyway, had to copy and paste as the article is in column format:

"Women for Space Study

The European Space Agency (ESA) is on the lookout for 24 female volunteers for a long-duration bed-rest study.

ESA officials said the selected candidates would remain in bed, with their heads slightly tilted down at six degrees below horizontal, for a total of 60 days, to simulate the physiological effects of an extended period in weightlessness as experienced by astronauts.

Why so gender-specific?

Researchers point out that little is known about how the female body is affected by weightless conditions. A majority of previous ground-based studies have been carried out on male volunteers. Also, relatively few women have flown in space to date. The study will help advance knowledge of gender differences in the experience of extended exposure to weightlessness.

This research can have clinical significance here on Earth too. The study improves methods to assist recovery by bedridden patients, and provides countermeasures to conditions associated with reduced physical activity.

The study, slated for January/February 2005, is a joint venture between the European Space Agency (ESA), the French space agency (CNES), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and the Canadian Space Agency (CSA).

Research will take place in the Space Clinic (MEDES) located at the Rangueil Hospital in Toulouse, France. Volunteers will live in the MEDES research facility for a total duration of 101 days.

Details about candidate requirements for ESA's Female Bed-Rest Study can be found at: www.medes.fr/ltbrw]http://www.medes.fr/ltbrw]www.medes.fr/ltbrw"

--Cindy

atitarev · 2004-08-03 14:23:56

Thanks, Cindy.

I'd like to know the results - is it on the ESA portal web site?

Rxke · 2004-08-05 07:33:44

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetra … Spacedaily has an article about it. With (EXPENSIVE!) phone-in numbers for further info...

and the mentioned link in the article leads to http://www.medes.fr/Clinic/Experiments/ … .html]this...

(Yay, a picture of Mars in the article!)

karov · 2004-08-07 09:21:26

So, if I sum up the ideas, including the necesarry logical condition the humans to be left with unchanged genomics, and hence no local lower-gees constant evolutionary adaptations to be allowed, than NOW, on the horizont two major 'hardware' approaches emerge:

1. Manipulate the WHOLE BODY to retain its muscle and mainly, bone strenght , emulating ~ 1 G gravity condition = via centrifuging the whole habitat or substantial part of it or via vertical body stance cradles. I agree that this closer to the normal environmental effects, and should leed to lesser unexpected side effects.

2. Manipulate PARTIALLY only the bones and muscles natural hardware on cellular informatics level. Experiments show that every other human phisiological system reaches in micro-gee new stabile state, except the bones.

The osteocytes , being bone-matrix fixed osteoplasts have stress-receptors and network protruding to the bone surface for commanding the osteoplasts` activity emision of biochemical and contact signals. Quite probably these receptors are piesoelectrical. That means certain level and frequency of stress over some cristals in the colagen-mineral bone matrix excites certain amount and quality - strenght, frequency... of ELECTRIC currants. These electric impulses are caught by the osteocytes` receptors which trigger the proper biochemical responce in the command mechanism of the osteocytes. Generally that electric impulses, lead to complex hormones and ensimes, proteomic and gene activating cycle - quite complex, but on single, primal electric step the process is trigered by simple, followable and comperativelly repeatable artificially variable.

Hence, the 'artificial osteofixation', the making of bones to behave as they are in ~1 G could be achieved via INDUCING in the osteocyte`s receptors the same electric signals according to the normal gravity`s four-dimentional ( body volume + time ) 'stress map'. I hope this could be achieved without injection of chemicals or gene terapy, but simply with out-of-the-skin electrical induction devices, exciting the necesarry level of impulses where they are needed to be mimiced the full gee... If such external body-contact devices are not working, implantation of nano- or microelectrodes along the bones could be implemented via existing micro-invasive syrgery methods + blood-fed glocose-oxigen power cells microchips for impulse pattern regulation...

karov · 2004-08-07 10:33:09

As an analogy with catching the circuts of other sences ( cause the receptor`s devices in the osteocytes are censory aparatus on themselves) similar ways of artificial vision and hearing:

If the eye or year drums are damaged, but the nerves electrically leading the transfomed from light or aerial vibrational energy signals to the cortex are non-damaged, than directly stimulating electrically the nerves provides the brain with signals without actual excitation of the retianae by incoming photons. This is the way now tried to be elaborated the visual neocortex to be provided with understandable data by electronic digital cameras. Already are present artificial electonic eyes for implantation, but with too low resolution abilities, yet. The problem is that the shear quantity of visual information is enormous.

It should be possible without actual stressing of the responsible bone cristals, i.e. in non-pieso way the same electric signals to be excited in the censory electric circuitry of the bones` loss/growth regulation as they are in ~1 G environment. The gigabits (?) of necesarry information should be, also far less in absolute amount and signals frequency diversity than the visual or audial income, so even quite modest in power microchips should be sufficient for osteal regulation emulating the earth`s mode.

I think even implaned in every bone`s mass mechanical microvibrators 'firing' in the needed frequences and cycle could be sufficient...

The scale and complexity of such method`s actual realisation depends entirelly from the sophisticatedness of the natural regulation mechanism, by it appears, when compare with similar techs of organic 'hacking', that it lies well within the scope of the nowaday technology and research abilities...

One 'conspiracy theory' about why we don`t have this yet, could be that the pharmaceutical giants don`t need one-way, simple and cheap cure method, than expensive, chamical medicines, not quite effective and providing constant income of money through dependency similar to the illegal drugs trade... :-) :-) :-)

Rxke · 2004-08-20 16:21:16

Breakthrough?

http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.a … tterHumans- 'Adonis'

karov · 2004-08-22 03:14:10

Breakthrough?
http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.a … tterHumans- 'Adonis'

Yes, I`m talking about such schemes exactly.

The major thing in this article is:
=============================================
"For me, the most exciting part is that the activity levels were the same in the two groups of mice. This means the mice that were lean with strong bones worked no harder than fat mice—it was under genetic control," Platt says. "What's really exciting is that this finding raises the possibility that we could develop new treatments for obesity and osteoporosis because TLR4 can be targeted by drugs and inhibited."
=============================================
Targeting a gene with drugs to be inhibited, means exactly the thing I pointed out for the 'gene-protein circuits hacking' without gene mutations. 'Genetic informatics', no 'genetic engineering'. The genome remains as it is without removing or changing of genes, or puting new ones in the chromosomes... the activity of the gene is regulated by external supply of certan biochemical. Notice, that in himans and mice the TLR4, forms gene-protein circuit with the 'signaling gene it needs called CD14. The laboratory mice from the described experiment had mutations in TLR4 or in CD14, but indeed it is not necesarry -- inject the proteins - synthesized exsosomatical - in normal produced by these genes... and with drugs you fight the microgravity bone loss. Of course it is not so simple, the mentioned genes have key role in the immune system, TLR4 percieves the sepsis bacteria. So, not only TLR4-CD14 gene-protein circuit, but the entire gene-protein processor node where these genes are involved should be examined for manipulation.

Imagine ' vacsine' for intevention in the work of this gene-protein complex networks... The basic humans keep their normal bone strenght no matter how big or small is the acceleration.

comstar03 · 2004-08-30 02:35:44

We work around these issues of genetics, If we need to have restricted workzones for child-bearing females in outer space. That might be a space issue that we need to accommodate early in space colonization development stages. Until a full process of artifical gravity can be developed.

dicktice · 2004-08-30 08:59:12

There's only one way to find out, and that's to do it. Voluneers won't be hard to find, either. Don't just dither about wondering and worrying about child bearing in microgravity, because that's the way of the future.

karov · 2004-09-11 05:31:10

Without experiments we can not pass. But to risk the lifes of volunteers and their progeny... The results could so much frightening for the public that this area of research to be abandoned or heavily restricted as the human cloning, nuclear tech or many others.

First sufficient data from Mars-Gravity-satelite like numerous tests should be collected and analised + substantial develpoment in the field of genetics/proteomics and especially the genetic-hormonal-cellular mechanisms of the osteoporosis should be reached before ANY experiments including human "guinea pigs".

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#76 2004-07-27 18:41:27

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#77 2004-07-27 18:49:30

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#78 2004-07-28 02:18:39

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#79 2004-07-28 08:18:35

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#80 2004-07-28 09:02:17

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

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Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#82 2004-07-28 09:50:38

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#83 2004-07-28 18:19:20

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#84 2004-07-29 08:32:05

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#85 2004-07-29 13:17:27

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#86 2004-07-29 17:42:05

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#87 2004-07-29 17:57:59

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#88 2004-08-03 10:17:22

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#89 2004-08-03 11:55:40

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#90 2004-08-03 14:23:56

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#91 2004-08-05 07:33:44

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#92 2004-08-07 09:21:26

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#93 2004-08-07 10:33:09

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#94 2004-08-20 16:21:16

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#95 2004-08-22 03:14:10

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

#96 2004-08-30 02:35:44

Re: Low gravities and colonization. A show stopper? - Any suggestions apart from exercising?

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