Space Elevator gets more funding

HombrePequeno · 2002-08-13 10:50:00

Seattle-based HighLift Systems is hosting a conference this week to meet with investors and other parties potentially interested in a device that could open the final frontier to the masses within 15 years because of the space elevator's relatively low costs and extremely high traffic volume.
NASA has given HighLift a US$570,000 grant to continue research into the elevator and the company has received an indication of support from the European Space Agency, which has representatives attending the Seattle conference.
"With a system as inexpensive as ours, every nation could have a space program. Most universities could have a space program. And a few corporations could have their own space program," said Michael Laine, the company's president.

Source: National Post

Phobos · 2002-08-13 16:45:40

It's about time someone with deep wallets gave space elevators serious consideration. I think someone should create a "people carrier" attachment for a space elevator with a glass bottom. I'd love watching the Earth slowly fade into a blue marble surrounded by blackness.

HombrePequeno · 2002-08-13 23:06:25

Honestly, I think Brad Edwards' space elevator is sort of like the Mars Direct of space elevators. Before his design, people basically only talked about huge elevators that would cost hundreds of billions of dollars. This design brings the price down to an affordable level. Now if we built one of these on Earth AND on Mars, Mars missions would really be in business.

Phobos · 2002-08-14 22:41:34

Do you have any links to sites with Edward's space elevator ideas? I really think this is the direction we should be striving to go in since it will drastically lower the price of getting into orbit and thus potentially open space to the masses. I wish NASA would take the radical step and do heavy research on space elevators as a substitute to building new launchers. It's hard to get enthusiastic about the new shuttle NASA is designing when it's probably going to end up being another $10,000 a pound to orbit wonder.

C M Edwards · 2002-08-15 06:41:36

Look here, Phobos:

http://www.niac.usra.edu/studies/

This is a list of some studies NASA is funding, and Edwards's elevator is among them. The studies are listed alphabetically by principle investigator's name.

Palomar · 2002-08-15 11:46:07

I'd love watching the Earth slowly fade into a blue marble surrounded by blackness.

*If you've ever watched "Looney Tunes," you've seen it Phobos! Well, except that rocket Bugs Bunny somnolently climbed into was SPEEDING away from the "Oyth."

:::in a merry mood:::

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-15 12:26:18

Hmm, I couldn't quite calculate how many cubic centimeters or carbon nanotubes would be required.

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-15 12:34:41

Where are they getting all the carbon nanotubes? Surely 100,000 kilometers is a lot?

John Creighton · 2002-08-15 15:53:11

Forgive me for being the pessimist but what happens if it falls down? The elevator better be very light. We don't wish to drop an asteroid on our selves.

HombrePequeno · 2002-08-15 16:46:37

Do you have any links to sites with Edward's space elevator ideas? I really think this is the direction we should be striving to go in since it will drastically lower the price of getting into orbit and thus potentially open space to the masses. I wish NASA would take the radical step and do heavy research on space elevators as a substitute to building new launchers. It's hard to get enthusiastic about the new shuttle NASA is designing when it's probably going to end up being another $10,000 a pound to orbit wonder.

The link in my sig is the official website for it. It's got quite a bit of stuff under the Downloads section.

Forgive me for being the pessimist but what happens if it falls down? The elevator better be very light. We don't wish to drop an asteroid on our selves.

If it did fall down, most of the part that falls down would burn up in the atmosphere. It really depends on where it's severed. It's light by space elevator standards, coming in at 850 tons for the cable and something like a 600 ton counterweight.

Phobos · 2002-08-17 01:36:44

I was milling around at those websites and I began to wonder how often you'd have to replace the ribbon due to fatigue caused by wear and tear. Anyhow, I found it discouraging how NASA claimed space elevators won't be feasible until sometime around the year 2100. Personally, I think NASA is little pessimistic in their estimates. Considering the technological progress of the last 100 years I'm sure we'll have viable space elevator technology developed way before then!

Shaun Barrett · 2002-08-17 02:12:35

Am I understanding this version of the space elevator correctly?
There's no asteroid ballast. A paper-thin ribbon of nanotube material is attached to a floating platform in the Pacific Ocean. The other end is attached to a rocket and launched straight up for a distance of 100,000 kilometres. Its own mass out past geosynchronous orbit will be enough to counterbalance its weight below GEO.
Do we have rockets that can travel 100,000 kilometres straight up? How do you avoid damaging the ribbon with rocket exhaust on the way up?
I think I must have this all wrong in my head because I'm finding it difficult to visualise.
Will someone please set me straight?!
:0

Palomar · 2002-08-17 11:26:19

Honestly, I think Brad Edwards' space elevator is sort of like the Mars Direct of space elevators.

--------------
High Lift Systems

*Thanks for the link. I've been trying to visualize what a "space elevator" would look like. Interesting.

--Cindy

Preston · 2002-08-17 12:09:38

The first rocket doesn't lift the ribbon on takeoff. Accoring to the site, "The NIAC work laid out a detailed description of a possible space elevator program. Initially, a small, carbon-nanotube-composite ribbon (10 to 20 cm wide and microns thick) capable of supporting 990 kg payloads would be deployed from geosynchronous orbit using four rockets and a magnetoplasmadynamic upper stage. Climbers (230) are sent up the initial ribbon (one every 3 to 4 days) adding small ribbons alongside the first to increase its strength. After 2.3 years a ribbon capable of supporting 20,000 kg climbers would be complete."

I can't find out where it says how thick the final ribbon is. Also, would it be tapered like other designs?

HombrePequeno · 2002-08-17 13:17:19

I was milling around at those websites and I began to wonder how often you'd have to replace the ribbon due to fatigue caused by wear and tear. Anyhow, I found it discouraging how NASA claimed space elevators won't be feasible until sometime around the year 2100. Personally, I think NASA is little pessimistic in their estimates. Considering the technological progress of the last 100 years I'm sure we'll have viable space elevator technology developed way before then!

The climbers can patch up the wear and tear when they go up. I can't say how often they would need to do it though. Maybe every month or so.

You can't really blame NASA for being pessimistic. Heck, space elevators might not become feasible at all. While I don't think it'll take 100 years to figure out if it's feasible, there's still a lot of work to be done.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-08-22 02:38:24

Thanks Preston!
I thought I must have had everything wrapped around my neck sideways because it didn't seem to make any sense!
Now I understand why some people see this as the 'Mars Direct' of space elevators. It does indeed seem to be a relatively 'cheap and cheerful' version of the elevators I've heard about up to now.
I must admit, I was always inclined to think we wouldn't be able to build an elevator until we acquired the skills to manoeuvre a carbonaceous asteroid into geosynchronous orbit and build a nanotube factory on its surface. In other words, I imagined a start date some time in the 22nd century!
This idea is much more attainable. In fact, I believe it could really be done in a 15 to 20 year time-frame, as High Lift Systems suggests.
I'm a bit unclear, still, as to how the ribbon is to be lowered from GEO to the floating platform. Presumably the trailing end would be subject to high winds at various levels in the upper atmosphere and might be difficult to control(? ) Or have I got the wrong end of the stick again?
In any event, I suppose that is a minor point. I'm very excited about the whole thing and, to be quite frank, would be prepared to invest in such an enterprise without hesitation. A functioning space elevator (or how about an even half-dozen? )would be a monumental advance for humanity and turn us into a genuine spacefaring species. The commercial prospects aren't to be sneezed at, either!

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-23 14:53:02

The elegance of this elevator is astouding. It's much like how we build long bridges. First send a wire across, then send multiple wires along that wire, strengthing the whole structure in the process.

Some questions that need to be answered, though are:

During the inital deployment (when the first wire is lowerd from GEO), how do you get around inertial stress? One would assume that you would slow the lowering at a certian point, but even then the weight of the structure would increase exponentially. Can a ribbon of carbon nanotubes really handle that kind of stress?

They say that the elevator would avoid lightning, but how would it react to the highly charged magnetosphere? Is GEO still inside the magnetosphere? (I believe it is not.)

I really like this idea, despite my questions as to its feasiblity.

Phobos · 2002-08-23 20:08:21

I'm a bit unclear, still, as to how the ribbon is to be lowered from GEO to the floating platform. Presumably the trailing end would be subject to high winds at various levels in the upper atmosphere and might be difficult to control(? ) Or have I got the wrong end of the stick again?

This is one of the things I wonder about to. Once the cable gets deep enough in the atmosphere I imagine you'd need to develop some kind of system that would catch the cable from high up and guide it down to the platform. If the space elevator can just reel that ribbon all the way down to the platform with no external help, I'd pity anyone who challenges it to a game of darts. :0

During the inital deployment (when the first wire is lowerd from GEO), how do you get around inertial stress? One would assume that you would slow the lowering at a certian point, but even then the weight of the structure would increase exponentially. Can a ribbon of carbon nanotubes really handle that kind of stress?

I wonder if they've already calculated the types of stresses that would happen from inertial forces. Also, would the cable stretch over time? From what I've read, carbon nanotubes have 100x the tensile strength of steel, so hopefully they can withstand the forces.

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-24 00:47:43

This is one of the things I wonder about to. Once the cable gets deep enough in the atmosphere I imagine you'd need to develop some kind of system that would catch the cable from high up and guide it down to the platform. If the space elevator can just reel that ribbon all the way down to the platform with no external help, I'd pity anyone who challenges it to a game of darts.

I think it would have a small weight on the end. Perhaps a couple of pounds. Granted, the wind would still blow it around a bit, I don't think this will be much of a problem (they're designing it to be in an area where wind is scarce). Plus, you have to consider how straight this wire will be, I suspect the weight of it will cause it to be very straight, and very stiff.

I wonder if they've already calculated the types of stresses that would happen from inertial forces. Also, would the cable stretch over time? From what I've read, carbon nanotubes have 100x the tensile strength of steel, so hopefully they can withstand the forces.

Yeah, carbon nanotubes can handle a whole lot of force. Perhaps I exaggerate inertial forces, but when you think about it, you can just imagine how strong they could be. Just imagine lowering a string with a one pound object on it. What happens when you slow that string down? The object becomes heavier. Just like you become heavier when an elevator is going down and stops. The question is how heavy the wire becomes at whatever speed the lowering is. Since the inital wire will be amazingly light, this probably isn't a problem after all.

But I suspect everything can be calculated with sensors. I can imagine a device on the lower end of the wire that contains simple microthrusters. The sensors would detect the rate of decent (using a laser measuring device), inertial mass (simple stress scale), and proximity to the destination. As you approach earth, you decrease your rate of descent, but never more than an inertial mass stress point. Say, half of the tensile strength of the wire.

The microthrusters would make sure that the descent is as straight as possible. As you enter the atmosphere, you obviously will have some turbulence problems, but since most of the wire exists outside of the atmosphere, I do not think this will be a problem (think of a wire that flips about on its very very end... no big deal). It could even have high powered microthrusters for use inside the atmosphere.

Adrian · 2002-08-24 04:01:23

I'm subbed to a mailing list called sdcv@smartgroups.com, and they've recently been in contact with Brad Edwards. He's looking for volunteers to do a few things, including:

I just got off the telephone with Space News. They want to do an article on the space elevator and are considering it for the cover and they would like some artwork. Do you know of a volunteer that would like to do cover art for Space News on the space elevator? It would need to be 600dpi, 8.5x11 and depict the space elevator in a realistic and interesting scene. They will need it by Sept. 15. Let me know.

also

"1. Short stories, articles or novels on the development and use of the elevator such as what you are working on. The stories should portray the uses, social impact and technical attributes of the system so that the idea can be part of the social conscience. Get the word out in an interesting way essentially.'

"2. Assemble a coordinated effort to inform politicians of the possibilities and public support.'

"3. If someone out there knows about rubber tires and tread-type traction systems we will need a study of the tread design on the climber. We have an initial one but an independent study of the problems that could be encountered and what design aspects we need to have would be good. This needs to be a quantitative, detail analysis and will require some time.'

"4. Design of a ribbon tensioning system for on the anchor. This system needs to keep a set tension at 20 tons or less across the ribbon in a very uniform fashion and contain a take-up spool. The final ribbon will be one meter wide but this will be built up with many smaller ribbons so either a method to combine the individuals onto a single large spool or 230 individual spools with different tensions needs to be set-up. Again a quantitative effort.'

"5. A study of the available orbital debris tracking systems and how they can be used to get good accuracy on objects down to roughly 1 cm in LEO. A good place to start is a study by Loftus in 1993 out of JSC.'

Looks like Brad has got a long road ahead of him. Nice that he's doings things in the open though.

Adrian · 2002-08-26 03:35:47

Just got this from SDCV mailing list - it's Brad's idea of what his climber might look like. Apparently caused a lot of discussion on the Space Elevator Group when he sent it there:

Shaun Barrett · 2002-08-26 06:08:18

Hi Adrian!
I'm really not sure if this is of any use to you at all, but there's a book I've had on my bookshelf these past 16 years called "Endless Frontier. Vol. II". It is a collection of essays edited by Jerry Pournelle with John F. Carr.
On page 160, there is an essay, written in 1982 by Charles Sheffield, called "How To Build A Beanstalk".
Sheffield was President of the American Astronautical Society at the time this book was first published, 1982, and also a member of the Board of the L-5 Society.
It's a fascinating essay and begins by surmising that the age of rockets will soon come to be regarded in the same light as the age of dinosaurs!
I don't know if this is the kind of stuff you're looking to sift through, but it's an interesting read anyway. And incidentally there's an essay called "Redeemer" on page 404, by someone called Gregory Benford!

Phobos · 2002-08-26 21:48:09

"1. Short stories, articles or novels on the development and use of the elevator such as what you are working on. The stories should portray the uses, social impact and technical attributes of the system so that the idea can be part of the social conscience. Get the word out in an interesting way essentially.'

It's funny that you should mention space elevator fiction considering that on the way home today I was thinking that it might make an interesting action movie to have a bunch of terrorists plotting to blow up a space elevator in the future and of course have some tuff dude singlehandedly take them all out. Hmmm, it would probably be better to come up with something more original and less plot driven though.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-08-27 05:15:11

Hey, Phobos!
You must have a copy of this book I've mentioned: "Endless Frontiers. Vol. II".
Immediately following the essay called "How To Build A Beanstalk", by Charles Sheffield, is a fictional short-story by the same author called "Skystalk". In this story, they describe 'buckets' which ride the space elevator carrying raw materials and other supplies ... about 400 of them, going up and down, at any one time.
Anyway, the point is that terrorist blackmailers have managed to get a 4 megaton fusion bomb into one of the ascending buckets. Authorities were given 72 hours to meet certain demands.
It's a rollicking good story and I don't know why they haven't made it into an Arnold Schwarzenegger sci-fi blockbuster already!

Phobos · 2002-08-27 22:40:52

Anyway, the point is that terrorist blackmailers have managed to get a 4 megaton fusion bomb into one of the ascending buckets. Authorities were given 72 hours to meet certain demands.
It's a rollicking good story and I don't know why they haven't made it into an Arnold Schwarzenegger sci-fi blockbuster already!

Kewl plot. I think someone should take that plot and turn it into a James Bond thriller. I can just see 007 speeding up the tether with snazzy high powered rollers in his boots to disarm the bomb just two seconds before the terrorists flip the switch. I can't think of a better way to get the concept of space elevators into the mass consciousness than to incorporate them into entertainment.

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Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

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