Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

Palomar · 2004-07-27 09:53:52

*Just found this at space.com's "Astronotes" feature. It's in column format and updated frequently, so I'll have to copy and paste. Sorry if this is a repeat of something which may have been very recently posted; not intentional.

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July 27

Soyuz Tourist Trips to the Moon?

For those prospective space tourists among you, why stick around the Earth?

Constellation Services International (CSI) envisions Russian Soyuz spacecraft used for fly-me-to-the-Moon passenger service. The entrepreneurial firm unveiled their plan for the first time during a recent Return to the Moon conference, sponsored by the Space Frontier Foundation.

CSI "is in early discussions with potential partners to find out if there is interest in a commercial lunar flight in the 2008 time frame," said Charles Miller, President and CEO of the firm in Alexandria, Virginia.

The idea is to sell one of three Soyuz seats to a space tourist for an initial week-long stay at the International Space Station (ISS). The space sightseer and fellow crew members would then add to their travelogue by sojourning onward for a week-long lunar stint.

The Soyuz would require a kick-stage for the cis-lunar run. On the return leg, the craft would double-dip into the Earth's atmosphere, making use of a thicker-than-normal Soyuz thermal protection system en route to a parachute touchdown.

Miller noted that the former Soviet Union flew modified Soyuz craft - in the Zond series -- around the Moon and returned them to Earth over three decades ago. "It is obvious they can do it again. The Soyuz is more advanced and robust now than it was in 1968-1970," he told SPACE.com.

"We might be able to do this without a dime of NASA money," Miller said.

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--Cindy

JimM · 2004-07-27 10:35:40

The Soyuz would require a kick-stage for the cis-lunar run.

There's the rub. It wouldn't half need one. (And going via the ISS makes no sort of sense trajectory-wise, BTW.)

clark · 2004-07-27 10:46:09

They need a lander for the Moon. We're budgeting billions to develop a new one, and it will take several years to develop.

Fly around the Moon? Perhaps. Land on the Moon, not quite.

BWhite · 2004-07-27 10:55:13

They need a lander for the Moon. We're budgeting billions to develop a new one, and it will take several years to develop.
Fly around the Moon? Perhaps. Land on the Moon, not quite.

To fly around the Moon is still pretty cool. If people will pay $12 - $20 million to stay at ISS for a week, how much more will they pay to add a lunar circum-navigation?

= = =

Offer a package deal to tourists. Pay us NOW for a circum-navigation Apollo 10 style with no landing and you get a guaranteed reservation for when we later build a lander.

Use the proft from the above to pay for lander development as a joint venture with the Russian government, who would love to land on the Moon before NASA got back there.

Besides, they could even sell media rights. :;):

clark · 2004-07-27 11:00:27

How much will it cost? I think that is the important question.

A lunar trip requires more fuel and consumables, another seperate launch of the lunar hardware (i.e. the fuel).

$100 million or more?

BWhite · 2004-07-27 11:15:50

How much will it cost? I think that is the important question.
A lunar trip requires more fuel and consumables, another seperate launch of the lunar hardware (i.e. the fuel).
$100 million or more?

Nah.

If its an Apollo 10 "no land" trip then 1 additional Progress would be more than enough. And if the Soyuz is "left over" from an ISS support mission then the incremental cost would be minimal.

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-27 11:24:41

The TLI stage will not be a trivial piece of hardware... it would take at least one and perhaps two Progress-B sized vehicles for such a flight... and the question again begs...

How many multi-millionaires will do it?

Rxke · 2004-07-27 11:42:16

Anyone that could run the numbers on this?

Soyuz with restartable engine, refilled by Progress... It will probably arrive pretty empty at ISS... Burn for circumlunar, burn for Earth-orbit injection...

Hmmm. If one flight is 20 mil to ISS, could they do it for 50? (two passengers, cost of Progess(es) and docking, tanking-operation)

Keep in mind the (second) Progress could also double-up as delivery-boy for ISS, or at least trashcan, might reduce the cost marginally... It would be weird if it took *exactly* one or a multiple '100% full' Progress for refuelling, that's probably not even possible, tanks are not inside the pressurized stowage compartment...

How many people? There are surveys being done, it's wel into the errr 'less than hundred, more than ten' range...

BWhite · 2004-07-27 11:44:21

The TLI stage will not be a trivial piece of hardware... it would take at least one and perhaps two Progress-B sized vehicles for such a flight... and the question again begs...
How many multi-millionaires will do it?

If =ANY= do it then the Russians will be able to flight test a TLI with the cost shared between the Russian "taxpayers" and a private sector tycoon.

Seems like a "win-win" to me especially when the US chair of the House Appropriations Committee says he likes the VSE but there just is not enough money to do it.

We cannot escape taxpayer financed space missions for a long time to come (IMHO) yet why not supplement tax dollar funding in creative ways?

Rxke · 2004-07-27 11:44:42

It just occurred to me: imagine the first crew to go beyond LEO since the 70's to be partial tourist-class...

Now that would be pretty painfull!

Rxke · 2004-07-27 11:49:28

http://www.constellationservices.com/]Constellation Services International

Looks like a pretty big company? Not.

"Constellation Services International, Inc. (CSI) is an early stage orbital services company that is currently focused on cargo resupply to low Earth orbit (LEO) and satellite retrieval and repair. CSI is developing and patenting an innovative method to resupply space platforms in LEO using existing technology that we call LEO Express SM Space Cargo Services. "

But there's *nothing* substantial on their site...

clark · 2004-07-27 11:54:55

Can three live in a Soyuz for a week?

BWhite · 2004-07-27 11:59:07

http://www.constellationservices.com/]Constellation Services International
Looks like a pretty big company? Not.
"Constellation Services International, Inc. (CSI) is an early stage orbital services company that is currently focused on cargo resupply to low Earth orbit (LEO) and satellite retrieval and repair. CSI is developing and patenting an innovative method to resupply space platforms in LEO using existing technology that we call LEO Express SM Space Cargo Services. "
But there's *nothing* substantial on their site...

So what? They are a broker, nothing more. The real player is the Russian government and who they choose to broker the flight through is less important.

If even one Billionaire ™ would pay $40 million to fly an Apollo 10 flight trajectory around the Moon, the Russians can flight test a TLI with $40 million less paid by their taxpayers or the ESA. A flight tested TLI gets the ESA/RSA one major step closer to the Moon.

$40 million for the Apollo 10 mission and $80 million for a 2nd mission to help plant a Russian flag on the Moon? They only need ONE paying tourist.

Depending on when the $80 million is paid, the tourist could go before or after the flags of Russia and the EU are planted in lunar regolith.

Rxke · 2004-07-27 12:11:55

Can three live in a Soyuz for a week?

Design life: 14 days, so i guess that has to be manned (worst-case-scenario: not able to dock etc...)

BWhite · 2004-07-27 12:23:59

Can three live in a Soyuz for a week?
Design life: 14 days, so i guess that has to be manned (worst-case-scenario: not able to dock etc...)

180 days for ISS on-orbit storage with plans to extend to a full year.

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-27 12:30:06

Getting from Lunar orbit or loop-round-the-Moon down to the surface is still a big, big deal. I figure it would require putting 15MT at the least into Lunar orbit. Thats shaping up to be well over the nine-digit mark even if launched on cheap Soyuz R-7 boosters... Which cost on the order of $40M each.

You would need at least two, one for the lander and one for the TLI stage. Same thing with a strip-down Soyuz with extra heat shielding, if not two launches for the TLI stage + fuel. Thats adding up to be a cool quarter-billion at least, not counting development dollars.

Rxke · 2004-07-27 12:46:29

the 180 days is however in 'sleep' mode. But that's good, you could take your time, then.

2 days launch and docking to ISS. (so 14 days operational design time minus 2)

-shutdown while docked.
...... (max 180-14 days)

12 days left after undocking, whew, you could easily circle the moon a gazillion times, that way?

Rxke · 2004-07-27 12:52:14

A quarter billion is 6.25 launches? (40 mil each)

isn't three or four more realistic?

(No. No way you can land on the moon for 160 mil.) But hey!

250 million to land on the Moon? By GCNRevengers numbers? Is that cheap or expensive?

BWhite · 2004-07-27 12:53:10

To do this by itself, as a stand alone business idea, cannot work IMHO.

To do this to subsidize RSA development of hardware that can be used in a future joint ESA-RSA lunar mission is genius.

The ESA might be more squeamish about tourists than the Russians (just a hunch) and the tourist trips may need to be all Russian but if the Russians can get a $50 million subsidy from a non-taxpayer source and fly Apollo 10 as an all Russian mission, a joint ESA/RSA Apollo 11 is that much easier, right?

Rxke · 2004-07-27 13:02:09

Would you say nyet to someone who offers you the chance to land on the Moon for 250 mil, if that included a stint on the ISS as an extra?

Even if Lance Bass had to be the paying passenger ("Da, we need him for ourr centerr of grravity! But we have ways to make him shut up!")

There *must* be a catch, though...

(oh, yea, the non-existant lander... But i guess they have several blueprints: Lunochod, the sample-return missions, and hey, what's this? A... Apollo? Huh...)

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-27 13:17:13

Thats $250M for the launchers, not counting the payloads or TLI stages & tankage.

Rxke · 2004-07-27 13:50:27

I knew there was a catch! (heehee: pretty lame to call my own stupidness 'a catch'...)

Been Googling for the cost of Soyuz + launcher, most sites either stay mum or say it's not known (Tito, Shuttleworth payed 20 mi per seat...l, but cost probably closer to 15-10 mil, that's the price ESA pays, anyway)

However: http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:J9 … hl=nl]This article says:

"A typical orbital combination in the 1980’s cost approximately US$6 million to construct and US$20 million to launch. " Add inflation.

clark · 2004-07-27 14:00:39

We could just wait for Bigelow. His master plan is to build a lunar cruise ship.

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-27 14:33:18

I would imagine that an Earth Orbit Rendevous style Lunar mission that uses an extended Soyuz capsule plus a new lander and TLI stages launched by Zenit-II or Onega are going to run you around $500M at least, and thats just for enough mass for say 2 people and essentially no cargo to the Moon much less off it.

JimM · 2004-07-27 15:01:49

GCNR, I feel your $500 million price tag is far too low. The Russians have never ventured beyond LEO and it's a third of century since the Americans have. They have no man-rated lunar excursion module; they have no deep-space communication system; they have never demonstrated a manned Soyuz hyperbolic re-entry.... the list is endless.

Sure, they can cut a lot of corners that delayed Apollo and cost a lot of money, but you can't launch an expedition like this (and that's what it would be) unless there was a reasonable chance of sucessful return for all on board, including the tourist.

Which raises another thought. Can this mission be flown with one tourist and just two crew? I frankly doubt the mission can afford a passenger.

$500 million? By the time you've finished all your vehicle development and testing, make that $2 or $3 billion, and 3 or 4 years to lift-off. And these numbers are on the side of optimistic, I'd say.

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#1 2004-07-27 09:53:52

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#2 2004-07-27 10:35:40

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#3 2004-07-27 10:46:09

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#4 2004-07-27 10:55:13

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#5 2004-07-27 11:00:27

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#6 2004-07-27 11:15:50

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#7 2004-07-27 11:24:41

Re: Soyuz: Fly Me to the Moon

#8 2004-07-27 11:42:16

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#9 2004-07-27 11:44:21

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#10 2004-07-27 11:44:42

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#11 2004-07-27 11:49:28

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#12 2004-07-27 11:54:55

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#13 2004-07-27 11:59:07

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#17 2004-07-27 12:46:29

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#18 2004-07-27 12:52:14

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#19 2004-07-27 12:53:10

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#24 2004-07-27 14:33:18

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#25 2004-07-27 15:01:49

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