Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

melkor · 2004-07-11 19:23:53

Oooh...a thread which my background in psychology prepares me for...

What we appear to be dealing with here is a delusion, which is to say a system of thoughts or beliefs that are contrary to reality. Specifically, this is the "Grandiose" subtype, of which the APA'shttp://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/dsm4classification.htm]Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Ed. says:

"This subtype applies when the central theme of the delusion is the conviction of having some great (but unrecognized) talent or insight or having made some important discovery."

Grandiose delusions may result from several different problems, but two of the most common, and problematic, are bipolar disorder (manic depression) and schizophrenia, paranoid type. Ant, do any of the following apply to you:

male, age 17-22
sometimes see or hear things others cannot
believe you are under surveillance

or

sometimes get depressed for months at a time
go on out-of-control spending sprees
sleep less than 4 hours per night

Ant, if any of the statements above fit you, (I doubt you'll take this advice but I feel compelled to try), please see a psychologist or psychiatrist or at least talk to a general practitioner. These things can be controlled, but left to run their course they are often life-ruining (or -ending) conditions.

And, as for the topic, I really don't see the gravity wheel becoming useful for interplanetary transportation. I mean, even if it works, what's a spinning piece of cardboard going to get you?

JimM · 2004-07-12 02:04:53

Ant, do any of the following apply to you:
male, age 17-22 ...

melkor, in reply to one of my earlier post he said he was aged 43. More details are there, earlier in the thread, although they seem like gibberish to me. I had asked him how old he was because I wondered if he was an ill-educated and confused youngster.

And, as for the topic, I really don't see the gravity wheel becoming useful for interplanetary transportation.

I believe that what he thinks he's on the point of inventing is an antigravity machine, which if it were possible would certainly revolutionise interplanetary transportation, not to mention interstellar transportation.

However, the history of science and technology is littered with examples of antigravity machines promised by their so-called inventors, who then fail to come up with the goods with depressing regularity. An added twist in the case of this so-called 'gravity wheel' is that it's a perpetual motion machine into the bargain, which has the virtue(?) of making it doubly impossible.

But it would be handy if it worked, like it would be handy Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy were real, and if pigs had wings into the bargain.

I mean, even if it works, what's a spinning piece of cardboard going to get you?

Hah! I'll remind you that another Scotsman (ant lives in Scotland) John Logie Baird invented television back in the 1920's, and he used a spinning piece of cardboard to make his earliest models work.

So there!

MarsDog · 2004-07-12 13:36:07

In order to extract energy, gravity has to change over time.
Tides are the most powerful example, but the Gravity Wheel would have to turn very slowly. Ant could try harnessing the atmospheric pressure fluctuations. Or tap into electromagnetic energy.

JimM · 2004-07-12 14:26:49

In order to extract energy, gravity has to change over time.

According to the Theory of Relativity, gravity is a geometric phenomenon rather than a force. Therefore it does not have to change and does not extract energy.

Alternatively, Quantum Theory would lead us to believe gravity is a quantum particle (like an electron or a photon) called a graviton, which no-one has managed to detect yet. Such a particle does not 'extract energy' in any meaningful sense to us in the macroscopic world.

If you can resolve (mathematically and precisely) the descriptions of gravity in these two theories, you would have produced the holy grail of modern physics, the Theory of Quantum Gravity, and be well on your way to the ultimate, a Theory of Everything and a sure-fire Nobel Prize in Physics.

So far this challenge has Stephen Hawkings and friends beat, but I look forward to your suggestions.

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-13 14:46:35

Thanks for your input. On Monday, I recieved the order of material I'd been waiting for. I have been drilling away for the past two days.

I have just (2000 GMT) completed all 6 arms at 1 to 45 square.

Tomorrow Wednesday 14th, I will be buying the axle and fitting the arms to the wheel.

A bit earlier than I expected. I'll know within 2 days worst case, this time tomorrrow best case.

SPEED AND TORQUE

I believe the Wheel demonstrates minimum energy so it will be relatively slow, however it's torque is not minimum as the arms are from 7 to 15 bars thick, for structural reasons.

With alteration to its square matrix the speed (more squares) and torque (more weight in the square matrix) can be varied.

I hope to prove my theory eitherway - within two days.

Ant

G
GOD

Feyona · 2004-07-13 15:35:31

Hi,

totally messed up a reply to this topic, sent it to Melkor privately which wasn't meant...sorry Melkor...as the point I was hoping to make wasn't directed at only you, but was generated by your response to Ant's mental health.

Why should it matter what state someone's mind is in or not?? what famous names through the ages were 'mad' genius? i am not saying that I think Ant is one of these, but neither could I say he is not, but as my own background in psychology would teach me, i would NOT pick open a scab and leave it bleeding....melkor you did just that and justified it by insinuating that you are somehow 'qualified' to do so.

I joined this list to learn about the possibility of mankind reaching Mars, I have been interested in this for some time, i have no illusions that I might actually understand some or any of the science talked about here, my interest in Mars might be described as a spiritual quest. What interests me is the possibility of a new and fresh start, learning from the mistakes from Planet Earth, and not using Mars as an opt out clause...by that I mean, I dont feel that populating Mars with all that is dysfunctional on earth to be a viable solution nor an ethical one, anyways...that is probably off topic for this thread and I am sure some kind person will direct me to the buttons that Ineed to push to start a new thread and understand cyberspace.

much love and light
Feyona

GraemeSkinner · 2004-07-14 01:59:56

I can understand one vote for 'A' in this poll, but come on, admit it, who was the second 'A' voter?
50% have so far gone for 'E' including me.

Graeme

JimM · 2004-07-14 02:47:34

Feyona, what concerns me is not ant's state of mind, but rather that the machine he tells us he is building is utterly incapable of working for more than one basic reason, and as such should not be taken seriously.

The most basic of these basic reasons is that his contraption is a perpepual motion machine, which is to say if it worked it would get something for nothing. The Universe is just not built like that.

Put simply, a perpetial motion machine is a machine (or any other process) that is more than 100% efficient. That is impossible, period.

Whatever sort of society develops on Mars, it is not going to happen by means of impossible machines... by magic.

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-14 09:18:11

who was the second 'A' voter?

I had the opportunity to vote first and did but forgot the too in the question...

Ant

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-14 09:44:02

Put simply, a perpetial motion machine is a machine (or any other process) that is more than 100% efficient. That is impossible, period.

If I do get this wheel working today or tomorrow and I am very confident I will, then the impossible will be possible and our understanding of energy will be changed.

I understand the Gravity Wheel to be the FIRST application. Without a Gravity drive how do we develop antigravity?

Ant

Earthfirst · 2004-07-14 11:54:03

Gravity kicks ass, like when you jump up it pulls you down, it is just like a bully, in large groups and mass it is strong, but alone it is weak.

JimM · 2004-07-14 13:07:07

If I do get this wheel working today or tomorrow and I am very confident I will, then the impossible will be possible and our understanding of energy will be changed.

Our understanding of energy, and everything else...

I'll believe it when I see it. Or more exactly, when it is certified by people we can trust to know what they are talking about.

Lauder is not so far from Edinburgh. Persuade a professor of physics at Edinburgh University that your machine really works, and you will start to convince people generally. Not before.

Without a Gravity drive how do we develop antigravity?

Just run this past me one more time:

How does a gravity drive get us antigravity?

ANTIcarrot. · 2004-07-14 18:09:28

Technically it is possible to build an apparent perpetual motion machine. That is to say, a machine that is gaining energy from a source which we cannot identify or masure. Some kind of quantum generator may run this way for instance. But somehow I doubt this gravity wheel is quite the same thing.

ANTIcarrot.

JimM · 2004-07-14 19:47:57

Technically it is possible to build an apparent perpetual motion machine. That is to say, a machine that is gaining energy from a source which we cannot identify or masure

ANTIcarrot, What you are saying is a machine might look like a perpetual motion machine because we don't have sufficient knowledge about how it functions.

I grant you that. But in the end, it will turn not to be a perpetual motion machine. Either it has a source of energy we did not know about yet, or we are victims of a conjuring trick.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-07-14 23:47:09

Either it has a source of energy we did not know about yet, or we are victims of a conjuring trick.

Something like a 1000W motor stuck on the back of it perhaps :;):

As soon as someone invents frictionless materials, thats not subject to gravity acting upon it, I'll believe it can achieve perpetual motion.

Graeme

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-15 01:22:54

Technically it is possible to build an apparent perpetual motion machine. That is to say, a machine that is gaining energy from a source which we cannot identify or masure.

The solar system works as a apparent perpetual motion machine. Gravity and the planets have ratio's that comply with square and square root ratio's. I am not claiming to have invented a perpetual motion machine, the joints will wear etc., it will not last perpetually. I am tring to use a square ratio to create a rotation motion through oscilation.

To give an update. All arms have been put on the piece of hardboard. When I get back this afternoon, I will be adjusting the arms and completing the mechanism that closes one arm when the other opens. The unbalancing motion appears to be 'only just' enough. I will soon know if E=6*45 is the minimum solution or not.

Perhaps the paranoid 18th century inventor http://www.besslerswheel.com]Bessler did build a Gravity Wheel and died with the secret as to how.

Ant

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-15 01:41:13

Technically it is possible to build an apparent perpetual motion machine. That is to say, a machine that is gaining energy from a source which we cannot identify or masure.

The solar system works as a apparent perpetual motion machine. Gravity and the planets have ratio's that comply with square and square root ratio's. I am not claiming to have invented a perpetual motion machine, the joints will wear etc., it will not last perpetually. I am tring to use a square ratio to create a rotation motion through oscilation.

To give an update. All arms have been put on the piece of hardboard. When I get back this afternoon, I will be adjusting the arms and completing the mechanism that closes one arm when the other opens. The unbalancing motion appears to be 'only just' enough. With this matrix I cannot see it going faster than 1 rotation every 2 seconds. I will soon know if E=6*(one to)45^2 is the minimum solution or not. I hope I don't need to add '0'!

Perhaps the paranoid 18th century inventor http://www.besslerswheel.com]Bessler did build a Gravity Wheel and died with the secret as to how.

As it is considered impossible, who will look? Only those that believe. Belief in my opinion is the quest for the impossible. I have enough evidence now to suggest an early meeting for our Action Plan Review Meeting scheduled on the 6th August.

Ant

JimM · 2004-07-15 03:16:21

The solar system works as a apparent perpetual motion machine.

Apparent, but not real.

Tidal forces will eventually cause all planets and other objects in the solar system to fall towards and then into the sun. In actual fact things will never get to that point for the earth, as the sun will become a red giant before this happens to a significant extent, swallowing the four terrestrial planets in the process.

Examples of the tidal effect are numerous, but the rings of Saturn are the best known. The rings are the detritus of a satellite that eventually spiralled down to within the Roche limit, at which point the tidal effect of Saturn's gravity is greater than the gravitational attraction of the particles making up the satellite, causing it to break up and form the rings.

The earth's moon will eventually, billions of years from now, spiral down to the earth's Roche limit and break up into rings too. Already, the reason that the same hemisphere always faces the earth is due to tidal forces, as is the lengthening of the earth's day from about 10 hours a couple of billion years ago to the 24 hours we know today.

Ian Flint · 2004-07-15 10:40:33

Isn't it neat how, in a couple of billion years (or something like that), the Earth and the Moon will be at eachother's synchronous orbit points. Now that would be a cool way to build a space elevator -- a bridge between planets.

Grypd · 2004-07-15 13:59:01

Is it not that the moon is actually breaking away from the earth and will in about 2 billion years break free.

JimM · 2004-07-15 14:22:48

Isn't it neat how, in a couple of billion years (or something like that), the Earth and the Moon will be at eachother's synchronous orbit points. Now that would be a cool way to build a space elevator -- a bridge between planets.

But it's such a looooooong time to wait...

Grypd · 2004-07-15 15:45:23

Ah but if the moon does break free we may well have at last a decent spacecraft. It will take about 2 Billion years to get anything to happen at the rate we are going.

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-15 15:55:50

Well I have tried to put it together and I have finished what I can do. The axle keeps bending under the weight of the 6 arms. I cannot continue until the axle is stronger. I'll look for a different one.

I have a few demonstration video clip of a 3 armed 1 to 45 square I intended to publish it somehow on stargrail.co.uk but it won't let me without unreasonable cost.

The AVI video file size is 3 MB. Email me at anton@stargrail.com and I'll send you it or a smaller one depending on demand.

In the meantime contacting the 'Establishment' is pointless without a working machine. This attitude will now be reviewed formally on the 25th July.

Ant

JimM · 2004-07-17 04:57:47

The axle keeps bending under the weight of the 6 arms.

Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that an antigravity machine can't support its own weight?

Have you considered giving the thing a quick coating of cavorite, as recommended by Mr Wells?

ant of stargrail · 2004-07-17 06:42:53

The axle keeps bending under the weight of the 6 arms.
Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that an antigravity machine can't support its own weight?

The weight of each arm is about 5 Kg. With six arms the machine is 30 Kg., that's without the weight of the hardboard etc.

The machine I am making is not an antigravity device, it is a Gravity Wheel. It displaces weight proportionally as an oscilating wave round an axle to produce a rotating motion.

I will have smaller AVI files of the 3 arm effect this evening. The 3 MB file is not being recieved.

Ant

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#26 2004-07-11 19:23:53

Re: Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

#27 2004-07-12 02:04:53

Re: Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

#28 2004-07-12 13:36:07

Re: Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

#29 2004-07-12 14:26:49

Re: Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

#30 2004-07-13 14:46:35

Re: Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

#31 2004-07-13 15:35:31

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#32 2004-07-14 01:59:56

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#33 2004-07-14 02:47:34

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#34 2004-07-14 09:18:11

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#35 2004-07-14 09:44:02

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#36 2004-07-14 11:54:03

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#37 2004-07-14 13:07:07

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#38 2004-07-14 18:09:28

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#39 2004-07-14 19:47:57

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#40 2004-07-14 23:47:09

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#41 2004-07-15 01:22:54

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#42 2004-07-15 01:41:13

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#43 2004-07-15 03:16:21

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#44 2004-07-15 10:40:33

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#45 2004-07-15 13:59:01

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#46 2004-07-15 14:22:48

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#47 2004-07-15 15:45:23

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#48 2004-07-15 15:55:50

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#49 2004-07-17 04:57:47

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#50 2004-07-17 06:42:53

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