How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

Rxke · 2004-07-09 00:43:24

Nice page, several animations with solarstorms, more particularly the 'Haloween' solar storm interacting with Mars' atmosphere...

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/2004/ … .html]NASA

Palomar · 2004-07-09 05:14:03

*Hi Rik: Yep, fascinating stuff. There's a related article in a Science & Technology folder; a thread entitled "Fastest Space Storm --"...information in that article ties in with yours.

Speculation concerning CME's stripping away the Marsian atmosphere...

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-07-13 06:54:03

I didn't like the animation of Mars.

As an advocate of terraforming, I find it distressing to see Mars losing its air. I want to add air!

Palomar · 2004-07-14 15:32:45

*According to the link Rik provided in his initial post:

"Mars reacts to solar storms differently than Earth because it has no significant magnetic field, but a series of small, localized fields as in the animation. As a result, the supersonic solar wind directly interacts with the Martian ionosphere allowing oxygen to escape. Credit: NASA / Nagoya University; Credit: NASA"

If one day terraformation commences on Mars -- including thickening the atmosphere of course -- how will they tackle this problem? We've discussed the magnetic field issue in different threads, but not pertaining to the solar storm element (IIRC).

There are variables involved of course (chance, random events). How often -- on average -- does a solar storm wallop Mars? Etc. A CME erupts from the Sun or a nasty bout of solar flares -- Mars or any other celestial body may or may not be "in the line of fire" (recently one CME's vast energies were flung towards Saturn).

I'm curious how Marsians would "stay ahead" of the situation, especially how persistent they'd need to be and at what percentage of heaviness (-? not the best word but I'm not a scientist!) would the atmosphere have to consistently be at in order for it to stop "blowing away" like this during a solar storm. Also, what are the chances the magnetic field situation will make attempts at thickening the atmosphere futile?

--Cindy

Grypd · 2004-07-14 15:52:47

It has been suggested that you place a reasonable sized ship/assembly between the sun and Mars it will be just a massive magnetic Field generator so providing the missing field.

Problems galore though
1) It will have power generation costs that really only can be solved by Fusion

2) Inversely by repelling the solar wind the assembly will actually attract some particles posing a very high radiation exposure to the assembly.

3) The technology to make this device will be a long time coming

Shaun Barrett · 2004-07-15 06:30:31

I don't think there's much we can do about Mars gradually losing any atmosphere we may create around it. Losses due to Mars' relatively low gravity would be very slow by the standards of human existence, though 'sputtering' would tend to worsen that situation.
The lack of a global magnetic field, responsible for the vulnerability of the upper martian atmosphere to direct erosion by the solar wind, would mean the occasional massive impact of a CME, too, which would no doubt accelerate the atmospheric loss during those events.

But even taking all this into account, a 500 millibar atmosphere, say, would still take many millions of years to lose a significant percentage of its bulk.
I don't know how often we can expect a CME event to hit Mars head-on, maybe nobody knows for sure (?), and it's clear that an artificial magnetic field would maximise the longevity of our newly-constructed martian atmosphere. But I think we're going to have plenty of time to develop the technology we need to make a magnetic shield for Mars or, at least, figure out ways to 'top up' the air as it leaks oh-so-slowly into space.
After all, our species is only about 200,000 years old and may not last much more than another 200,000 in our present form (who knows?). As I've mentioned before, the average species lasts about 4 million years before evolving into something different or going extinct. Compared to these time scales, our new martian atmosphere will probably still be in fine form millions of years after we're gone.
So why worry?

Palomar · 2004-07-15 07:24:08

So why worry?

*Erm...

Shaun, I feel like I've fallen into the Twilight Zone. You're completely pro-terraforming and ask "why worry"...while you are familiar with my musings regarding terraforming.

Help me out here. ::scratches head::

Sorry, I can't resist ribbing you a bit. It just seems ironic is all.

--Cindy :;):

::twilight zone de-de-de-de music in background::

REB · 2004-07-16 06:18:26

It is also possible that much of Mars’ CO2 was absorbed by Mars Northern Ocean and Hellas sea and turned into Limestone. With out plate tectonics, the CO2 would not be recycled. This theory should be easy enough to prove. Just go to those locations and look for limestone in the bedrock.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-07-16 07:40:13

All I was saying, Cindy, is that I don't think the lack of a magnetic field, CMEs and sputtering notwithstanding, will be a serious impediment to creating a long-lived atmosphere around Mars.
I was under the impression you were thinking Mars would be losing its air faster than colonists could replace it:-

I'm curious how Marsians would "stay ahead" of the situation ..

Also, what are the chances the magnetic field situation will make attempts at thickening the atmosphere futile?

Oops! I think I see what you really meant now. You're not concerned with how long an atmosphere will last once it's created, you're wondering whether we'll be able to make one fast enough to keep ahead of losses during the process!
Sorry! I'm with you now.

I think the answer is yes, putting it simply.
We may be unlucky during the the decades of atmosphere production and get an unusually large number of CME 'hits', which would cause atmospheric thinning, but I think the subliming of the polar caps and massive outgassing of CO2 from the warming regolith will be more than quick enough to outstrip even anomalously high losses from solar events.
After all, the evidence of long-lasting open water on the martian surface is quite compelling (unweathered olivine being the major fly in that ointment! ) and it seems Mars must have hung on to its atmosphere for a geologically significant period, even after its original global magnetic field disappeared.

No, if it's a nice thick atmosphere you want on Mars, I feel confident we can create one and I'm sure it will, at least in human terms, be as good as permanent.

[I hope that reply was a little more coherent! ]

Shaun Barrett · 2004-07-16 07:48:53

Hmmm.
And as for the 'not worrying' bit, I suppose it is a sliding scale, isn't it?
Given your reservations about terraforming, the more concern there is about atmosphere-creation being futile, the more worry there is for the likes of me and the less worry for you! And vice versa.

Ah well ... c'est la vie!

Palomar · 2004-07-16 09:08:51

Also, what are the chances the magnetic field situation will make attempts at thickening the atmosphere futile?
Oops! I think I see what you really meant now. You're not concerned with how long an atmosphere will last once it's created, you're wondering whether we'll be able to make one fast enough to keep ahead of losses during the process!

*Yep.

Hmmm.
And as for the 'not worrying' bit, I suppose it is a sliding scale, isn't it?
Given your reservations about terraforming, the more concern there is about atmosphere-creation being futile, the more worry there is for the likes of me and the less worry for you! And vice versa.

*Well, I'd definitely be more comfortable with the notion of terraforming if it means attempting to tweak back from dormancy whatever *native* Marsian lifeforms might exist and coaxing them along to their full development versus hauling a bunch of Earth flora over and attempting to superimpose it onto Mars. Just a few comments...(not wanting to get off-topic; god knows we've got so many t-forming threads already established!).

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-03-08 12:54:46

It would seem that the Earth is not immune to the solar storms and that we lose ozone from it.

Ozone Loss Tied to Wind, Solar Storms

Once trapped in Earth's magnetic field, the electrons spiraled down along the magnetic field lines to enter the atmosphere at the poles in the same way lower-energy electrons do, kicking around air molecules in the process and creating the aurora light shows.
The more energetic electrons from the Halloween solar storms, however, caused some O2 and N2 molecules, which make up the bulk of Earth's atmosphere, to break and re-group as NO molecules. NO has a nasty habit of stealing an oxygen atom from any nearby O3 (a.k.a. ozone), thereby making it just everyday O2

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#1 2004-07-09 00:43:24

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#2 2004-07-09 05:14:03

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#3 2004-07-13 06:54:03

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#4 2004-07-14 15:32:45

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#5 2004-07-14 15:52:47

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#6 2004-07-15 06:30:31

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#7 2004-07-15 07:24:08

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#8 2004-07-16 06:18:26

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#9 2004-07-16 07:40:13

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#10 2004-07-16 07:48:53

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#11 2004-07-16 09:08:51

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

#12 2005-03-08 12:54:46

Re: How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies

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