Post central for information on CEV - iformation station for the spacecraft

clark · 2004-07-01 14:18:30

He's being taken seriously by a lot of people in te industry, so...

No, the industry is taking his money seriously.

For some more fun, go check this out:
http://www.nidsci.org/bios/bigelow.php]President and Founder ; National Instutite For Discovery Science

But like I said, if he can make it work, more power to him.

cDelta · 2004-07-01 14:22:09

Speaking of people with an overabundance of money, what's up with Amazon.com's Jeff Bezos and his new company http://www.blueorigin.com]Blue Origin? It's been very hush-hush. And when I say hush-hush, I mean there is absolutely NOTHING known about what he's doing. Is it an SSTO, an X-Prize competitor, what? Anyone care to speculate?

clark · 2004-07-01 14:26:55

I can ask my one eyed hobo, but no promises.

Any takers?

Rxke · 2004-07-01 14:29:53

NOW I'm curious, with what you'll come up with, Clark!

Bring it on!

cDelta · 2004-07-01 14:30:12

So that's the source of your information. I knew it! You're a fake!

clark · 2004-07-01 14:34:39

Blue Origins is currently working on a sub-orbital vehicle designed to fly tourists to space and back in an afternoon.

That is in the medium term.

Long term goal is to build a fully capable human rated orbital launch system that will reduce launch costs and improve saftey.

The one eyed hobo is always right. Want to bet?

Rxke · 2004-07-01 14:37:20

Do not *ever* underestimate Clark's one-eyed hobo, cDelta, he has... Powers Bigelow's NIDS would be very interested in!

cDelta · 2004-07-01 14:38:28

Wow, Clark. Wow. You continue to amaze me. I wonder how far along Bezos is with hardware development? He would be doing us all a great favor if he just updated his website..

Rxke · 2004-07-01 14:38:35

Phah, we knew *that*

Yer hobo's getting old, clarky-barky!

cDelta · 2004-07-01 14:40:11

Call me naive, but I didn't know that. I had assumed...

Rxke · 2004-07-01 14:43:30

Assumed. Yes, point taken. Me too.

OTOH... So has the hobo, I'm sure. Although i doubt he has that sophisticated a vocabulary, heehee

clark · 2004-07-01 14:44:08

Sarcasm? Say it ain't sooooo. :laugh:

It's been very hush-hush. And when I say hush-hush, I mean there is absolutely NOTHING known about what he's doing. Is it an SSTO, an X-Prize competitor, what? Anyone care to speculate?

To be fair, you did state that absolutely nothing is known. But I conceed that some things are known.

Like Neal Stephenson (the Author) is working as an advisor for them.
That they are working with a bunch of aero-space interns and doing some actual building.
That they are working on reducing the costs of suborbital and orbital launches, and improving saftey.

But really, it seems that sub-orbital trips is their primary business model (currently). I would imagine that this is followed by selling related technology to other sub-orbital entries business models (they are approaching this from a different angle than Rutan).

I might add, they are working on a 20 year time scale here, with the goal being the "enduring human presence" in space.

But hey, what do I know.

cDelta · 2004-07-01 14:48:32

They don't call me the 'King of Sarcasm' for nothing. Actually, they don't call me that at all - I call myself that .

But, you know, Clark, maybe you are the hobo...posting via laptop outside of some unsuspecting Starbucks...

And, who is Neal Stephenson and why would he be on their payroll?

clark · 2004-07-01 14:49:18

The first one is free, the next one will cost you a nickel.

BWhite · 2004-07-01 16:07:28

The actual full scale model is called Nautilus, and is expected to weigh 40-50,000 pounds. Bigelow is already working out a deal to use Dnper rockets (Satan russian ICMB's) for the Nautilus. One of these things will provide 2/3rd of the exsisting ISS space.

Dnepr is waaay too puny for 40,000 pounds to 50,000 pounds to LEO.

Even Proton is too small for a full 50,000 pounds without some added boost (or a Proton pad in Kouru?)

Check out http://www.futron.com/pdf/FutronLaunchCostWP.pdf]Futron data.

= = =

5 segment Thiokol SRB plus liquid upper stage might be able to do 45,000 - 50,000 pounds. Otherwise, we are talking Shuttle B/C if Bigelow wants his hotel.

One shuttle B with 5 segment SRBs and we are talking TWO Transhabs maybe with a utility module to connect them.

= = =

Dang, I almost wrote a magazine article 6 months ago about how to finance a space hotel.

- - Sell 10 limited partnership shares for $30-$40 million each.
- - Sell name rights for $100 million (unless Bigelow wants dibs)
- - Sell advertising and marketing (Can you hear me now? Hey Verizon!)

Sorry, clark, I am repeating myself but cDelta is fresh meat.

= = =

PS - - An empty external tank is a dandy zero-gee sound stage and sports arena!

BWhite · 2004-07-01 16:11:54

And, who is Neal Stephenson and why would he be on their payroll?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Stephenson]Neal Stephenon is a sci-fi writer turned consultant.

Maybe I need a mid-life career move. :;):

Rxke · 2004-07-01 16:12:47

Judging from te pics, i don't think it will launch in one go, so njepr is still possible, i guess...

BWhite · 2004-07-01 16:18:41

Judging from te pics, i don't think it will launch in one go, so njepr is still possible, i guess...

Dnepr is smaller than Zenit. A SeaLaunch 3SL would be a better choice (perhaps) because of inclination issues.

Being on the equator really helps.

What about an unmanned Clipper? Add a cryogenic upper stage to the Progress R-7 and what is the throw weight on that?

GCNRevenger · 2004-07-01 19:43:59

You mean the Onega rocket, the R-7 with the cryogenic upper stage. It will cost and carry about the same as Zenit-II.

clark · 2004-07-06 10:05:57

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/c … ml]Private Initiative for Inflatable Space Habitat Lures Chinese Interest

By Craig Covault
07/04/2004 09:10:58 PM

Look what we were just talking about, and now it's in Aviation Week. :laugh:

The one-eyed man sees better than you might think...

China is eyeing participation in new privately funded U.S. space ventures, such as the Bigelow Aerospace inflatable habitat for biotech or other space-business endeavors.
A Chinese role in these ventures could challenge the U.S. government to focus more attention on space cooperation with China. This is especially so, since the U.S. State Dept. would have to rule on such commercial cooperation.
Bigelow is receiving substantial technical assistance from the NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC), which developed the original TransHab inflatable concept considered earlier for use on the International Space Station (AW&ST Dec. 8, 1997, p. 39).
Bigelow has taken over part of the TransHab technology under Space Act and other agreements with NASA, and space agency managers speak highly of the Bigelow. As part of these activities, Bigelow and NASA have just completed a second exclusive licensing agreement--this one for debris shield-related technology to be transferred from JSC to the company.
The Bigelow project involves more than two dozen established aerospace subcontractors and nearly 60 full-time Bigelow employees.
The team is working in 120,000 sq. ft. of floor space on a 50-acre site in North Las Vegas, Nev. These efforts have gone virtually unnoticed by the broader aerospace community. The company is preparing to add an additional 40,000 sq. ft. of space and several additional subcontractors.
It is well into the development of 25% and 45% scale inflatable flight test modules for a series of four privately funded unmanned orbital test flights during 2005-07. It has already developed substantial full- and reduced-scale inflatable ground test hardware.
THE ORBITAL demonstrations and ground test hardware are aimed toward the launch of a man-tended commercial "Nautilus" module between 2008 and 2010. The watermelon-shaped Nautilus would weigh 20-25 tons and, once inflated in orbit, measure 45 X 22 ft. with 330 cu. meters of volume. This is larger than the 25 X 27-ft. tractor-tire shaped TransHab and substantially bigger than any individual ISS module.
China Great Wall Industries managers recently visited Bigelow facilities in Nevada. They sounded out the company on the possible launch of Bigelow test or operational modules on Long March boosters or the in-orbit support of Nautilus by Shenzhou Chinese manned spacecraft.
The Chinese are also planning to develop their own small space station, which could theoretically provide orbital infrastructure for the docking of a Nautilus inflatable.

BIGELOW ALSO HAS signed a nontechnical framework agreement with the Kosmotras Russian-Ukrainian booster venture for the launch in 2006 of a second Genesis on a "Dneper" commercial launch version of the SS-18 ballistic missile. A formal contract for that launch is awaiting approval of a Technical Assistance Agreement by the U.S. State Dept.
Bigelow's in-orbit test plan involves:
Two Genesis flights. The 2005 and 2006 Genesis payloads would each be 3,000-lb. units measuring 15 X 6.2 ft. before inflation. Cameras and telemetry would observe inflation to double that size. The Genesis flights would demonstrate inflation technology, pressure integrity and debris-shield deployment.
Two "Guardian" flights. Also set for launch on the Dneper, these missions--planned for April and August 2007--would be 45% scale modules carrying critical life-support system test hardware.
Nautilus. Since the operational payload would weigh up to 50,000 lb. including docking interfaces, a Russian Proton, Chinese heavy Long March or U.S. heavy launcher would have to be used.

Rxke · 2004-07-06 11:39:02

I started a dedicated topic about it, forgot where we were discussing Bigelow...

It all sounds so weird... Chinese Government talking with American entrepeneur...

How can Bigelow do this, legally, I thought there was something like a clampdown on exchange of hi-tech to the 'evil' countries?
They mention it in the article, but I don't understand how or why he would be able to do this, while other companies can't...

clark · 2004-07-06 12:18:55

How can Bigelow do this, legally, I thought there was something like a clampdown on exchange of hi-tech to the 'evil' countries?

There is, however, that's really in the realm of anything that gives an "evil" country a military advantage or improves their military capabilities related to communication and launch. Boeing and Lockheed got slapped for giving China some technical details that allowed them to improve the accuracy of their launch vehicles.

DOD dosen't like the enemies ballistic rockets getting any better.

But that dosen't mean American corporations can't launch on foreign providers. US companies are routinely launching on Russian and chinese rockets. It's just cargo.

Bigelow shouldn't have a big problem launching stuff on the Long Rocket- but he may run into a problem if he tries to sell the Nautilis outright to them (need more details to really talk about something like that).

Now, he could probably lease space on a Nautilis to anybody, including the CHinese. This would kind of force NASA's hand into keeping up by way of producing their own version, or just joining in to watch those pesky Commies.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-07-06 16:37:40

Giong back to the Blue Origin issue, the fact that it's so hush-hush is either very good or very bad. It could be that Bezos has just found a place to throw his money away, or that they have learned from the mistakes of the rocket companies of the crash of '99, and are going to be quiet about what they're doing. Rotary Rocket was out yelling to anyone who would listen about every little development, and they folded. Scaled Composites didn't say a word until White Knight had already done 15 flight tests and they're now launching their test pilots into space. The results speak for themselves.

So it might actually be a good sign that no one from Blue Origin has been out screaming what they've been doing. Who knows? In four years Bezos might roll out a complete, tested, ready-to-fly SSTO before anyone else has a shot at it. Unfortunately, that's all that can be said at the moment...

cDelta · 2004-07-07 21:16:37

"NASA has hitched its wagon to us," Bigelow says. "They're here every other week now because this is the technology that they will depend on in the future."

Here's an exciting new article on Bigelow Aerospace's plans. It goes a bit more in-depth than we've seen and fleshes a few things out. Definitely worth the read.

http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2004/MER … 50261.html

A few salient quotes...

One of Bigelow's stated goals is the development of the first space hotel. A hotel in space would mean that Burt Rutan and other companies that are working to build reusable spacecraft, perhaps as part of a future "space airline," would have someplace to take their passengers. (Bigelow and Rutan have talked about working together, according to well-placed sources.) Bigelow is thus providing his own incentive to all the resuable rocket companies to step up the pace.

The first Genesis model is scheduled for a launch into space in November 2005. . . A second launch of a Pathfinder is slated for April 2006.

"We are definitely moving in the same direction and on a parallel path with Bob," says NASA's Miller. "He's come a long way in a short time and we want to make sure that he succeeds. We're building real hardware here and it's destined for space."

BWhite · 2004-07-07 22:10:00

Yeah, baby. Go Bigelow.

Data-mine my earlier posts about how to build a space hotel. It ain't all there but I'd say clark isn't the only one knowing some hobos.

But flying the hotel on Long March - - I didn't see that one.

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Re: Post central for information on CEV - iformation station for the spacecraft

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#186 2004-07-01 14:43:30

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#191 2004-07-01 16:11:54

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#192 2004-07-01 16:12:47

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#194 2004-07-01 19:43:59

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#195 2004-07-06 10:05:57

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#196 2004-07-06 11:39:02

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