Saddam's trial - Dangerous theater

BWhite · 2004-07-02 10:46:51

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common … 0.html]One report on Saddam's first day in court.

I have no intention of defending Saddam. Morally, he cannot be defended. Rather, this post is to highlight my opinion about the foolish manner in which we are proceeding.

1. The names and faces of the judge and prosecutors are to remain anonymous. Very bad from a Psy-Ops & political theater point of view. It sends a simple message. The new Iraqi government is afraid of Saddam's friends and other terrorists. Do we really want to send that message out on al Jazeera?

2. Nearly all camera time was on Saddam's face.

Ask any professional actor. Would you rather play the hero and get zero face time or play the villian and get almost all the face time? Faces shots humanize people. The back of a head or off camera voices or narrator's reading transcripts off camera are de-humanizing.

Anonymous, face-less prosecutors and judges will seem less human by TV viewers. It will be too easy for bin Laden and his ilk to spin this as a trial of a fearless Islamic man by puppets. If Saddam's face shows defiance and the other faces are not shown, the Psy-Ops subliminal message is very bad for us.

3. We should drop the charges concerning the invasion of Kuwait. In 1961 (pre-Saddam) Iraq signed a treaty to recognize a legitimate Kuwait government, under pressure from western powers.

Many Iraqi nationalists (whether pro or anti Saddam) believe Kuwait belongs as part of Iraq. We cannot allow that yet if we rub the Iraqi face in that point, we risk inflaming nationalist sentiment in favor of Saddam, since the accepted history in Iraq is that western meddling is the only reason an independent Kuwait exists today. Saddam did enough other bad things to hang him for. Drop Kuwait as one of the charges.

4. Being shot "while trying to esape" might be a better resolution than a full trial if it is like what we saw yesterday.

Saddam is right about one point. It is theater. So lets do it right.

~Eternal~ · 2004-07-02 10:54:46

Hopefully, the do not execute him is all I can say.

Palomar · 2004-07-02 11:05:55

*I agree with your points, Bill.

Yesterday I read a few articles pertaining to Iraqi sentiment towards Saddam, now that the trial is underway. Interesting (but not so surprising, given how most things seem oh-so "relative" to many people, i.e. they don't care unless it's happening to them personally)...Iraqis who suffered least under Saddam or whose regions were favored by him (along tribal lines I guess, and especially near/in his hometown) are portraying him as not a bad man who only executed and tortured people "who deserved it" and who "were a threat" to Saddam and the gov't. etc.

The people who suffered most, though, are (not surprisingly) calling for him to be publically strung up after execution so people walking by can throw a stone at the corpse, etc.

I wonder what Saddam's fate will be. Guess we'll find out.

--Cindy

Alt2War · 2004-07-02 11:45:38

Now, I'mm sure most of you know, I'm a bit of a peacenik. I don't care for capital punishment.

But... Is it not in Invasion, Occupation and Reconstruction 101 to kill the old king and his children?

Has not history shown this to be the case?

I do not condone the Iraq invasion, I do not care to occupy the country, and I am not happy how we have created a hot spot of terrorism on top of and right next to a vital and rare commodity essential to our immediate survival...

But...

We are where we are, occuping power. If we wish to insure that he or those sympathetic to him do not regain their authority, we should have killed Saddam. We still should.

Rxke · 2004-07-02 12:25:12

Remembers me of a novel i read. 'The porcupine' (Julian Barnes)

Similar situation: ousted dictator (East-bloc) gets public trial. The guy is not stupid, and it becomes quite... uncomfortable for the prosecuters, quickly.

"You should not work for the occupying forces" to the judge. Ouch.

And he could very well get some skeletons out of the closet etc...

Gennaro · 2004-07-02 12:26:45

Many Iraqi nationalists (whether pro or anti Saddam) believe Kuwait belongs as part of Iraq. We cannot allow that yet if we rub the Iraqi face in that point, we risk inflaming nationalist sentiment in favor of Saddam, since the accepted history in Iraq is that western meddling is the only reason an independent Kuwait exists today. Saddam did enough other bad things to hang him for. Drop Kuwait as one of the charges.

Worse, it will prove to these people that your puppet regime is a puppet regime.

While we're at it, you might better drop any charges on chemical weapons, or else a need could arise to press charges against Rumsfeldt and the American and German companies who supplied Hussein, so he could gas the Iranians and Kurds in the first place.

If there were legal proceedings against the deceased Churchill could be thrown in as well. After all he sanctioned gas bombings against insurgents in Iraq in the 20's, opposed to the then western puppet regime.

Personally I don't believe in political trials. Military defaet should be enough for a vanquished enemy, I've never understood the sadistic need to deprive him of his honour.

Ian Flint · 2004-07-02 18:21:52

What strikes me as the funniest thing (black humor, of course) in this "trial" is that the U.S. and Iraqi authorities are saying things like this:

Full Story -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5349298/]ht … d/5349298/

“Assume he’s innocent if you will, and let’s assume that, and let the Iraqi people through their courts decide,” Powell said...

two seconds later...

He contrasted the trial of Saddam with someone facing the justice system during Saddam’s rule.
“Can you imagine what it was like two years ago if he had arrested somebody? Do you think that person would have been considered innocent?” he asked.
“That person would have been in a grave by now.”

Sounds like a fair trial to me. ???

"Mr. Hussein, you will be given a fair trial, and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. It won't be like those lousy trials you gave all my friends who are now dead, you murderous bastard!!!

::smoothes out nervous twitch in left eye::

"After your fair trial you will be excecuted."

Ian Flint · 2004-07-02 18:44:22

About the Kuwait thing:

As far as I know, Kuwait used to be part of Iraq until the U.N. decided to "steal" it from the Iraqis. Hussein was simply doing what Abraham Lincoln did when the South wanted to become a separate country. Of course the specifics are different in each case, but Hussein was reclaiming territory that belonged to Iraq.

About the gassing of Kurds:

I don't know if Hussein ever publicly announced that he ordered the attacks, but if he didn't he can always simply point the finger at the other guy. Bush did the same thing with the CIA and the bad intelligence reports. If Bush doesn't take the blame then why should Hussein?

About Hussein's torture and unfair courts:

Two words -- Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib.

I agree that Hussein is an all around bad guy, but if the trial is going to be fair then he has a lot of technicalities to fall back on. If the trial is fair, I'm already on Mars.

John Creighton · 2004-07-02 21:21:03

I initially wondered if it was a good idea to charge Sadam for the Kuwait think. Maybe some Iraqis would be sympathetic. After thinking about it seemed to be a good move. It should he thought of them as dogs. I don’t know if Sadam ever used those words, although the translators and paraphrases seemed to say he did. But I think it was clear that was what he thought of them. It would help If I new more Arabic. Maybe he was just calling the pimps in Kuwait dogs. I don’t know maybe Sadam thought he kept order better? ???

Palomar · 2004-07-02 21:34:20

*I have a question.

If you held Saddam's fate in your hands, what would you do with/to him?

My answer: Treat him according to ethical humane standards and prison for life. I doubt he'd ever come to regret murdering thousands of his own people (I'm sure he's justified that long ago in his own mind and loses nary a wink of sleep over any of it), but surely he'd regret having lost power, prestige and privilege. That -- and living in very humble (but humane) conditions, scrubbing floors and doing dishes for the rest of his life (menial labor) -- may be adequate punishment.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-07-03 02:03:55

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … 0524]Yahoo

Diplomatic disaster in the making?

Saddam could ask... get this: the CIA to defend his case!

CIA published a report that strenghtens Saddam's statement he did *not* order the gassing of the Kurds, one of the prime charges he has to stand for...

Palomar · 2004-07-03 05:58:27

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … 0524]Yahoo
Diplomatic disaster in the making?
Saddam could ask... get this: the CIA to defend his case!
CIA published a report that strenghtens Saddam's statement he did *not* order the gassing of the Kurds, one of the prime charges he has to stand for...

*WHAT??

::shakes head::

I don't know what to say, except that this entire situation is driving me nucking futs.

--Cindy

~Eternal~ · 2004-07-03 14:25:40

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … 0524]Yahoo
Diplomatic disaster in the making?
Saddam could ask... get this: the CIA to defend his case!
CIA published a report that strenghtens Saddam's statement he did *not* order the gassing of the Kurds, one of the prime charges he has to stand for...
*WHAT??
::shakes head::
I don't know what to say, except that this entire situation is driving me nucking futs.
--Cindy

Dod Gammit Cindy I didn't know you had a fowl mouth

Ian Flint · 2004-07-04 08:33:01

Fhat the wuck are you potty mouths doing on this message board?

You know what "Heck" is don't you? It's where people go who don't believe in Gosh! :laugh:

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