President of India calls for joint - US/Indian habitat on Mars by 2050

Bill White · 2004-06-25 20:38:33

http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/techno … .html]Link here - - he also wants mining to commence as well.

Intensive partnership between the two countries using space exploration, particularly mining of minerals by space industries from moon, asteroids and establishment of first habitats in Mars was another point he suggested.
He said he visualised in 2050 an Indo-US team establishing a habitat on Mars, setting up mining industrial units in space and working on a joint programme to destroy or deviate asteriods when the earth is endangered.

Palomar · 2004-06-26 05:32:13

*Shouldn't he be more concerned with adequate housing and nutrition for the hundreds of thousands of Indians who live in abject poverty? ??? So many people in such dire conditions -- living in very poor shacks, drinking dirty water.

Is that situation going to be any better by 2050?

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-06-26 05:40:58

Well, in an indirect way he *is*

It's all about education etc. Current thinking in India is that getting more 'hi-tech-savvy' will better conditions more efficiently than errrr... the traditional poverty-measures they used to implement.

For instance: India's (particularly in the USA) famous 'outsourcing' of computer related jobs (like helpdesks etc.) allows a lot of people to earn more money, today, that gets passed down to poor relatives, is the thinking.

Some kind of heavy investing in tech, to make sure India gets out of the 'underdeveloped poor country' picture.

The farmers are not impressed, though, that's why the 'landslide victory' of the opposition took place in recent elections... They didn't notice too much of the positive effects it had (wich was mainly in the cities...)

Palomar · 2004-06-26 06:52:39

setting up mining industrial units in space and working on a joint programme to destroy or deviate asteriods when the earth is endangered.

*There's the "altruistic motive" mixed in with the real motive. It's always about "keeping Earth safe from asteroids" isn't it? Fact is, MARS is much closer to the asteroid belt than we are -- asteroid belt lies sandwiched between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter.

It's just about mining and exploitation.

I really doubt we'll see domestic and agricultural-oriented colonies on Mars any time soon. That's what I want...not all this "rip it up and process it" mentality.

Will the Solar System look like one huge trashed-out BLIGHT in 2000 years? I sure hope NOT.

Continued scientific research and study of our Solar System is more important than anyone's crass greed. We don't need to repeat the mistake we made with Earth multipled across the Solar System.

--Cindy

JimM · 2004-06-26 07:03:23

He said he visualised in 2050 an Indo-US team establishing a habitat on Mars

One must eat, so this sounds like a wonderful idea.

Is it too early to place my order?

I'd like mulugatawny soup, chicken tikka dubiaza, chicken vindaloo, onion bhajee, special fried rice, pashori nan bread, and mango pickle. Oh-- and lots of ice cold beer to wash it all down.

JimM · 2004-06-26 07:17:23

Will the Solar System look like one huge trashed-out BLIGHT in 2000 years? I sure hope NOT.

Look around the Solar System today. It looks like it's trashed-out right now. That's the natural condition of the universe, you know.

If there was a thermonuclear war on the moon tomorrow, once the dust settled it would only look different from now in so far there would be some new craters to add to the enormous existing collection already there.

Us humans can really only make the Solar System better. I know that's not PC, but it just happens to be true.

Palomar · 2004-06-26 07:23:12

Will the Solar System look like one huge trashed-out BLIGHT in 2000 years? I sure hope NOT.
Look around the Solar System today. It looks like it's trashed-out right now. That's the natural condition of the universe, you know.
If there was a thermonuclear war on the moon tomorrow, once the dust settled it would only look different from now in so far there would be some new craters to add to the enormous existing collection already there.
Us humans can really only make the Solar System better. I know that's not PC, but it just happens to be true.

*Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

By the way, do you look often at photos of the Solar System?

I doubt you do.

The Solar System looks trashed out now? I completely disagree. It's beautiful. Contrasted to what it'll look like (a trashed-out blight) if exploiters and greedy, unscrupulous people have their way.

Take a look at some photos returned by probes. Get a clue.

And since India is your nation's (England) old colony, why don't YOU join up with them on Mars?

As for your comments about the moon and what it'd look like before and after a thermonuclear war: Silly. But you're entitled to your opinion, of course.

--Cindy

JimM · 2004-06-26 07:43:59

The Solar System looks trashed out now? I completely disagree. It's beautiful.

I agree it's beautiful... beautiful trash heaps, you might say--"Mangnificent desolation." Because whatever you may think, that's what it is today. The entire collection of objects orbiting the sun, from speck of dust to Jupiter itself, consists of the detritus left over after the formation of the sun itself. Any other interpretation is self-delusional.

Another common self-delusion is that we, as a species, are powerful enough to make any significant impact on that in the forseeable future.

And since India is your nation's (England) old colony...

England is not my nation. Wherever did you get that notion from?

smurf975 · 2004-06-26 13:38:25

England is not my nation. Wherever did you get that notion from?

Your profile
---

Anyway people have very different views on what’s beautiful and what’s not. One person like the glass skyscrapers, the other likes seeing snow topped mountains.

---

Telling that India should first cater its poor before going to Mars is a sensitive subject.

As you can simple give as counter argument, well look at the US! Or when the space program started in the 1950ies how well of were Americans? You will possibly answer this with well they aren't any starved people here!

And India does have some form of universal healthcare and in that side Indians are better off.

Well I'm not Indian nor American so its not really my bizz.

JimM · 2004-06-26 17:04:02

ME: England is not my nation. Wherever did you get that notion from?
YOU: Your profile.

Just because I live there doesn't make it "my country".

I'm Scottish, if you want to know. There is no deeper insult than calling a Scotsman an Englishman.

Of course England is full of Scots running the place for them(*). We look upon this as missionary work.

(*) Tony Blair is Scottish, for a start.

Rxke · 2004-06-27 02:13:29

Of course England is full of Scots running the place for them(*). We look upon this as missionary work.

Excellent!

Friend of mine, a truly archetypical Scottish 'Highlander,' complete with thick accented voice like gravel over bedrock, long hair and towering height, once told me this little story:

He was in France, with some fellow Scottsmen and well... Despite the EU and all that, the French *still* don't like the English a bit, so when they heard his talk to his friends, they assumed he was English... Wich he really hated.
One day they were in a industrial town when a gang came up to them, ready to beat them up, and he, in his best french, roared "aay-coss, aay-coss!" (Ecosse being Scotland in french)

Took them a while before they understood him, but once it sunk in, all hostilities stopped, and they were "good guys," allowed, even welcome to enter the gang's territory...

Anyway on-sub-topic:

beauty of the solar system or open pitmines...
Objectively you have to acknowledge all bodies except Earth are 'just' bunches of rock, but it's the 'red' vs 'green' argument all over again...

I think India is looking for the riches in space because they are 'hungry' (not only for food) It's fairly easy to be red when you're well-off, but if your life depends on it... Farmers in the Amazon don't slash and burn for fun, it's because they have a family to feed. The big wood-cutting enterprizes, OTOH... is that genuine 'hunger' or greed?

JimM · 2004-06-27 04:58:52

Scotland and France have been allies against England since 1295. This is known as 'the Auld Alliance' in Scots and 'la Vieille Alliance' in French. It is (or was) very close indeed. French and Scots are still automatically citizens of the other country when they go there. The personal guards of Jean d'Arc as France fought England were all Scots, and these soldiers went on to become the Garde Écossais, the fiercely loyal bodyguard of the French Kings until the French Revolution. One of Napoleon's Marshals was named Macdonald.

Even today, it lives on. On a couple of occassions when trying to swing business deals in France I have let it be known that I'm not Englsih but Scots, and the tension could be seen to fade away, the smiles appeared on the French faces facing me, and the deals were done. And when England is playing France at Rugby or Soccer, all Scotland will support France. Mind you all Scotland will support whoever is playing against England, still known as the Auld Enemy.
-------------
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

Objectively you have to acknowledge all bodies except Earth are 'just' bunches of rock, but it's the 'red' vs 'green' argument all over again...

I'm not sure what you mean here by 'red'. But certainly if extreme greens were to put a total lock in exploitation of the Solar System, then the prospects for the human race would be pretty hopeless.

To survive, we are going to have to exploit the Solar System sooner or later. But the worst possible damage we could do to the Solar System would be so minor, it would be practically invisible. People who do not appreciate the shear scale of the Solar System should go and study this before they criticise from a false basis.

For instance, the 'surface area' of the Solar System (if you could imagine it spread out as a plane from the sun to Pluto) is so vast that divided equally between every human on earth today, each of us would have about 60 times the entire surface of the earth to call our own.

Or contemplate the Big Red Spot on Jupiter -- a storm that has lasted for at least 400 years and is about five times bigger that the entire earth.

Humans polluting the Solar System? Ridiculous. We are just not anywhere nearly powerful enough.

Rxke · 2004-06-27 06:35:20

Red vs Green comes from KSR's novels, and is being used widely in the terraforming or not debates (Mars)

I took the liberty to expand it to all bodies, heh.

Red: leave (Mars) as it is, the rocks etc. have intrinsic value.
Green: Terraforming, or introducing life, adds to the overal 'worth' of a planetary body. Greens are not the greens here on earth, insofar they would approve industrial works (like greenhousegasses factories, pumping up huge amounts of subsurface water, make use of nuclear power etc) to 'tinker' with the planet.

So a 'Marsgreen' could in some cases be looked upon as evil by an 'Earthgreen'...

An 'Earthred' would be all for industrialisation (Socialists/communists workers-paradise.) A Marsred certainly not...

Confusion abounds.

JimM · 2004-06-27 07:35:18

Red vs Green comes from KSR's novel

Sorry, I should have thought of that. And what does that make a Blue?

Grypd · 2004-06-27 09:54:42

A Blue, Me at the moment seeing how little advancment in solar system exploration is going.

India has a society which is becoming more and more technically literate and it sees itself as becoming a world superpower in the future. These dreams though need resources and with Indias high population and resource shortfalls it is looking at space as a way to expand economically and to increase its countries stature. With the low wages costs and the rapid learning curve it is going through it may well be that India will be that major force in the future. People of the west seem to think of India as a third world nation this is very wrong it is a country which trains more computer engineers each year than the amount of graduates from Britains universities in total.

And for those who are interested I am scottish and I am from the highlands.

Timeslicer · 2004-06-27 10:33:22

Sorry, I should have thought of that. And what does that make a Blue?

I think a "Blue" would be someone who is willing to completely re-arrange the mass of the solar system according to human best interests. The name would derive from the (presumed) need to import truly massive amounts of hydrogen to Mars in order to create oceans there - and of course that H2 has to come from somewhere else.

Red- The solar system is beautiful as it is, and humans should not disturb it.
Green- If we modify the planets to be more livable for humans, they'll be even more beautiful - with much of the original beauty preserved.
Blue- It's all just matter and energy, folks! We can rearrange it to suit ourselves!

smurf975 · 2004-06-27 11:20:52

I think of India as a second world country.

bolbuyk · 2004-06-28 07:04:30

The point 'give that money to the poor, not to Mars' is one I thougt we have learned is not correct. It is surprising to me this point appears on a forum like this. The poor are not only a concern to countries as India, China or Brazil, it's a worldwide one, so US and Europe could also be attacked by this point, and many do.

I think poverty and so are not primery a problem of lack of money but of political instability. In much cases it appears people have no money to eat, but lot's of it to fight.

Spaceflight can make some unity in a nation, the technical development is very fruitful as is the identity of a country in the world.

Yesterday I saw photo's of poor Indian people and I saw they were remarkably vital and creative. I think that are very good ingredients for making something beautiful. But when the country is disturbed by political issues appearing from Islam and Hinduism...

atitarev · 2004-06-28 07:22:03

I think what India does is great. Should a country become rich before they can do something big? Maybe it's their way of getting there. Somehow, I think some day space exploration and all related industries (it's actually ALL industries - starting from agriculture to high tech) will boom again when people start making some money out of space.

If settlement of Mars starts, it will never stop (and continue to other planets)! They will want all the infrastructure and environment we have on Earth, including education, health and entertainment, then we will want better ships, both natural and technical scientists will be in high demand. Mars will offer better wages, once transportation costs drop. Brain wash on Earth will cause improvement of conditions on Earth - it's just a demand and offer arithmetics. :laugh:

BTW, I am not naive, I just believe that's going to happen. I don't believe much in Nostradamus but didn't he predict a millennium of complete prosperity and peace?
...
China was very poor a couple of decades ago, now it's not so bad thanks to innovations and good management of the economy.

Dook · 2004-06-28 09:56:40

The primary reason there are poor people is a lack of jobs not food. There is plenty of food worldwide to feed everyone it's just that some cannot afford it. India's caste system expects the poor to stay poor and the rich are expected to stay rich. It is unthinkable for an untouchable in Indian society to become President. To some degree these rules are being broken down but it's not happening fast enough. India does not do enough to help it's poor. There are too many children who sleep on the streets. Building a space infrastructure should go hand in hand with soup kitchens and welfare benefits for those in need.

smurf975 · 2004-06-28 10:17:29

The primary reason there are poor people is a lack of jobs not food. There is plenty of food worldwide to feed everyone it's just that some cannot afford it. India's caste system expects the poor to stay poor and the rich are expected to stay rich. It is unthinkable for an untouchable in Indian society to become President. To some degree these rules are being broken down but it's not happening fast enough. India does not do enough to help it's poor. There are too many children who sleep on the streets. Building a space infrastructure should go hand in hand with soup kitchens and welfare benefits for those in need.

So a space colonization program could benefit the poor in the long term. That if they manage to get to the space colony. As it will be probably be a mix of a lot of nationalities, they can leave their cast system behind them. Basically why now a lot of people are fleeing their countries and head to the western world but now they can go to space and perhaps be more wanted as space colonies will be always be short of hands as I think in space colonies economic growth will never stop and grow as there is nothing to stop them from doing so except war. This is off course until there is balance reached between Earth population wanting to move and Space based people ability to reproduce.

However a problem will be if we export also culture to space. So perhaps you will have Muslim, Christian and Hindu kinds of separation and hatred. Or the culture of have and have-nots. However automation, cheap production methods (robotics) and an endless supply of resources will stop the "have and have-nots culture" like cheap plastic goods and mass production did on Earth in some limit. But in space this will be even greater.

Not saying there will be no rich and poor, just that poor have anything they need, the rich just have it gold plated.

C M Edwards · 2004-06-28 14:50:45

If Mike Melvill, why not Abdul Kalam?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-03-02 08:09:41

Budget propels ISRO's space, moon hopes
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1942873,0008.htm
Chandrayaan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan

dicktice · 2007-03-02 12:14:58

What would be the incentive for religious fundamentalists (say) to go into space, in the first place? I for one, found embarrassing the biblical passages read by the Apollo 8 crew members when they reappeared from behind the Moon. The sight of the distant Earth, climbing above the Lunar horizon, should've elicited something more indicative of the obvious isolation in space of the home planet, and the importance throwing off any reliance upon imagined deities to maintain it habitable. Gee, I wonder what the secular alternative remarks might've been, if those three astronauts hadn't been Bible thumpers?

RobS · 2007-03-03 19:40:42

I don't think they were Bible thumpers; they may not even have been church goers. In the USA, it is common to use Bible passages in situations like that. I was a secular 15 year old (a nominal Christian) that Christmas eve and was very moved.

-- RobS

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