Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 14:09:49

All I'm really saying is this: while offering anonymous banking services is in many cases moral and legal, such terms will attract a criminal element along with the vastly legitimate majority. To begin such a practice on Mars in the earliest days of colonization will hang a spectre of gangsterism on the planet long afterwards. Maybe the economic benefits outweigh that concern, but I'm not convinced. Why taint the spirit of the endeavor if it isn't necessary? Making such a banking operation the economic cornerstone of colonization has far-reaching consequences, many of them negative.

Image is important.

smurf975 · 2004-06-22 14:14:18

Unless of course you and your bank see no reason to help in preventing the exploitation of women or children by would be smut peddlers and slave-traders.

I'm sure that east european sex-slave-traders have no problems setting a bank account in any country on Earth at this moment. As they are to small time to notice.

And if they get bigger then they can just set up a paper company in the bahamas or panama that manages their money as what happens now. Saddam Hussein had several paper companies spread over the earth to make sure his money could enter swiss under a bogus account.

You want to stop this? Then change international law first.

clark · 2004-06-22 14:15:33

international law isn't worth the paper its printed on.

smurf975 · 2004-06-22 14:18:09

Well you need common rules so everything works out. Or do you have another solutions?

clark · 2004-06-22 14:20:18

Put me in charge, put Cobra to death (don't trust that coup lovin SOB)

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 14:29:05

Put me in charge, put Cobra to death (don't trust that coup lovin SOB)

Hey! You're the anti-death penalty one, remember?

Coup! Coup! Coup!

JimM · 2004-06-22 14:30:18

Oh, I don't know, perhaps instuting a policy that allows you to identify the accounts with the individual might be a way to help.

... which would defeat the purpose of the bank in the first place.

The single and sole attraction of the Bank of Mars would be that the accounts are annonymous.

Your analogy is lame because it is effectively "I'm going to close my eyes so I'm not responsible." Yeah, the bank isn't immoral, it completely lacks any morality what so ever.

Not so. Have you never heard of the expression 'common carrier'? It simply means it's a service provided to everyone who can pay, regardless of whether what they do is moral or legal or not. That covers not just banks and airlines, but electricity, mail, gas, gasoline, water, clothes stores, supermakets, newspapers, TV companies, .... you name it. I could go on, and on, and on.

Your objection is what's lame here. It's ridiculous to suppose the whole of human life could or should revolve around the prospect that a tiny proportion of customers might be crooks or terrorists. Followed to its logical end, that would produce the most oppresive police state since the Gestpo, Stasi and KGB all rolled into one.

Go your way, and Al-Qaida have won.

quasar777 · 2004-06-22 14:33:55

vices will be an inevitably in OuterSpace. it will be impossible to stop them.

clark · 2004-06-22 14:37:28

Hey! You're the anti-death penalty one, remember?
Coup! Coup! Coup!

Yeah. But I'm infinitely malleable. Consider it something of pre-emptive self-defense. :laugh:

smurf975 · 2004-06-22 14:38:45

Oh, I don't know, perhaps instuting a policy that allows you to identify the accounts with the individual might be a way to help.
... which would defeat the purpose of the bank in the first place.
The single and sole attraction of the Bank of Mars would be that the accounts are annonymous.

It doesn't matter anyway. Any big time crook will set up a string of paper companies that can't be traced back to him. Unless you require Martian banks to do more investigation then earth based banks?

I'm sure that if Al Quada sets up an account on Mars and the US can prove it, that it will be closed, swiss banks would do the same.

clark · 2004-06-22 14:44:58

... which would defeat the purpose of the bank in the first place.
The single and sole attraction of the Bank of Mars would be that the accounts are annonymous.

Hmm, and I thought the purpose of a bank was to protect your legitimate assests from immediate theft, with the prospect of increased value at the end of the day. If the sole purpose is to hide your assessts, I have to ask, hide it from what? Now I can see the value if you are extradoniraliy paranoid, or if you receive your assessts through less than legitimate means (which tends to make you paranoid.... for good reason).

So you want to create a bank whose sole cache is that people can't see what you are doing. Why? What for? to what end?

Think what you want, but this is making yourself part and party to any of the criminal activity since you take active steps to prevent your ability to know who it is you are doing business with. You don't care where the money comes from, fine. You don't care what they do with the money you hide for them, fine. But it is wrong if it enables others to use your services to do ill to their fellow man.

Followed to the logical end... you're slipping down the slope, not me. But go ahead, scram about the various extremes, that are inevitably taken to their logical extreme. The bank would have the means to identify the customers, it chooses not to, so it becomes complicit in the crime.

"No officer, I don't know where the stolen cars come from. Some anonymous people bring in the cars, I chop em up, and sell the parts. We provide a service. no crime here."

smurf975 · 2004-06-22 15:04:29

So you want to create a bank whose sole cache is that people can't see what you are doing. Why? What for? to what end?

Privacy, you have a lot of family owned businesses that don't want to let everyone know how rich they are, an example would be the owner of Ikea.

Think what you want, but this is making yourself part and party to any of the criminal activity since you take active steps to prevent your ability to know who it is you are doing business with. You don't care where the money comes from, fine. You don't care what they do with the money you hide for them, fine. But it is wrong if it enables others to use your services to do ill to their fellow man.

So you are saying that the whole swiss bank account system is based on criminal money?

And no its not only the swiss banking policy but also because its a stable country that doesn't enter wars, changes sides and its neutral that make it attractive to many people

Followed to the logical end... you're slipping down the slope, not me. But go ahead, scram about the various extremes, that are inevitably taken to their logical extreme. The bank would have the means to identify the customers, it chooses not to, so it becomes complicit in the crime.

Two words: Paper companies. They are used all the time even for swiss bank accounts. So ID will not say much anyway. That is unless you are on some wanted list personally.

Alt2War · 2004-06-22 18:52:19

Neil Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is required reading for yall who have not read it.

Illegal does not always mean immoral.

Many things could be done with a data haven, including banking, revolutionary or subversive information storage, communication between oppressed people and those that wish to help them. Historical documents that might be in jeopardy of being erased from history by big brother governments.

JimM · 2004-06-23 01:34:51

Illegal does not always mean immoral.

... and I would add, immoral does not always mean illegal.

I'm no lawyer, but any honest lawer (if you can find one) will tell you that the law is there to prevent what is illegal, not what is immoral. The two rarely coincide.

The single and sole attraction of the Bank of Mars would be that the accounts are annonymous.

To clarify, I mean the single and sole attraction of the Bank of Mars in comparison with most other banks.

Hmm, and I thought the purpose of a bank was to protect your legitimate assests from immediate theft, with the prospect of increased value at the end of the day. If the sole purpose is to hide your assessts, I have to ask, hide it from what? Now I can see the value if you are extradoniraliy paranoid, or if you receive your assessts through less than legitimate means (which tends to make you paranoid.... for good reason)

Well, since you must surely be so squeaky clean, have nothing to hide, and not be paranoid in order to be able to make this your position, I'm sure we can all look forward to your immediate and full disclosure on this board of your complete financial status, including all income, assets such as bank accounts, shares, real property, cars, etc., and liabilities such as outstanding borrowings such as bank loans, mortgages, etc.

Once you've done all that, there might be some validity in what you say. Until you do, I suggest you get off your moral high horse.

(Incidentally, the Swiss banking industry developed the way it did because of the Calvinist beliefs of the section of the Swiss people who got into Banking. Today Calvinism is most truly represented in its Scottish form, Presbyterianism, but it was also the basis of English Puritanism and so was the religion of the Pilgrim Fathers who founded Massachusetts. I don't recall they were famous for their moral laxity.)

-----------------------------------
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-23 07:35:12

Many things could be done with a data haven, including banking, revolutionary or subversive information storage, communication between oppressed people and those that wish to help them. Historical documents that might be in jeopardy of being erased from history by big brother governments.

Indeed, both data havens and more specifically anonymous banks have noble as well as criminal uses. By supplying those services, you will no doubt be helping many people with legitimate reasons for wanting privacy. But you'll also be assisting in criminal activity. With a data haven, for every organization sending information to the oppressed and preserving historical records from Big Brother you'll have some scumbag hosting kiddie porn.

In a way a data haven is like a weapon. The thing itself is neutral, it's what it's used for that makes the difference.

Now, with an anonymous bank you will be serving a huge number of people with legitimate privacy concerns. You'll probably serve a few organizations with noble causes from being shut down by overzealous authorities. A small percentage of your clients will be terrorists, drug dealers and the like.

Guess which group is going to stick in the public consciousness?

If Mars uses some form of anonymous banking as part of it's economic foundation, it's going to create an aura of criminality that will not go away easily. Using the example of the Swiss, they certainly aren't considered a rogue state, but when you hear the words "Swiss Bank Account" what first comes to mind?

Everyone I asked (admittedly not a scientific poll) said "Nazis," "Saddam Hussein," "Idi Amin," or some other unsavory character or group. Sure, most of the clients are legitimate businesses and law abiding individuals, but they aren't the one's who people remember.

Anonymous banks and data havens may well be a viable and valuable undertaking for colonial Mars, just be ready for the consequences. Run with dogs and you'll pick up the stink.

I'm no lawyer, but any honest lawer (if you can find one) will tell you that the law is there to prevent what is illegal, not what is immoral. The two rarely coincide.

Actually, laws don't prevent crime. Laws define crime. It's when we start defining crimes with no moral basis that problems creep in. It's when things go too far and the law is itself immoral that we need data havens and untraceable funds in the first place. So maybe all this justification for such an operation is going at it from the wrong end. :;):

Palomar · 2004-06-23 08:03:24

Hmm, and I thought the purpose of a bank was to protect your legitimate assests from immediate theft, with the prospect of increased value at the end of the day. If the sole purpose is to hide your assessts, I have to ask, hide it from what? Now I can see the value if you are extradoniraliy paranoid, or if you receive your assessts through less than legitimate means (which tends to make you paranoid.... for good reason)
Well, since you must surely be so squeaky clean, have nothing to hide, and not be paranoid in order to be able to make this your position, I'm sure we can all look forward to your immediate and full disclosure on this board of your complete financial status, including all income, assets such as bank accounts, shares, real property, cars, etc., and liabilities such as outstanding borrowings such as bank loans, mortgages, etc.
Once you've done all that, there might be some validity in what you say. Until you do, I suggest you get off your moral high horse.

*Hi Jim. Maybe the person to whom you addressed the above is simply trying to rattle peoples' chains?

As for any moral standpoint said person might have...I doubt it.

Ever heard that song "Games People Play"? [Hint?] Yeah.

--Cindy

clark · 2004-06-23 08:32:43

Well, since you must surely be so squeaky clean, have nothing to hide, and not be paranoid in order to be able to make this your position, I'm sure we can all look forward to your immediate and full disclosure on this board of your complete financial status, including all income, assets such as bank accounts, shares, real property, cars, etc., and liabilities such as outstanding borrowings such as bank loans, mortgages, etc.

How about this, I'm sooo paranoid I don't have a bank account. I don't have a morgatge. Any money I do have is stashed in a sock (I ain't tellin you where that is!) or under a mattress. I ride the bus, rent, and barter with goods and services whenever possible.

There is a difference between telling my banking instution who I am, and telling you. Don't be a twit. :laugh:

Until you do, I suggest you get off your moral high horse.

Why does the song Rawhide come to mind?

Hi Jim. Maybe the person to whom you addressed the above is simply trying to rattle peoples' chains?

Look, it's Cindy! Way to post Cindy! Way to be on topic too! Alright, now this discussion can really take off! I am so excited!

As for any moral standpoint said person might have...I doubt it.

This? From you?

Liar.

JimM · 2004-06-23 10:17:20

How about this, I'm sooo paranoid I don't have a bank account

Well now, in that case I've got the very thing for you--an anonymous account at the Bank of Mars.

Hi Jim. Maybe the person to whom you addressed the above is simply trying to rattle peoples' chains?

Hi ... Cindy? Maybe, but then maybe I was just calling his pompous moral bluff. And now it's clear he's a man of moral straw--and perhaps financial straw too, if we are to believe what he says about his socks.

Actually, laws don't prevent crime. Laws define crime.

Quite. What I should have said was, 'Law defines what is legal, not what is moral'. Anyone who fails to separate what is legal from what is moral should steer well clear of a career in the legal profession.

smurf975 · 2004-06-23 10:23:31

How about this, I'm sooo paranoid I don't have a bank account
Well now, in that case I've got the very thing for you--an anonymous account at the Bank of Mars.

How does an anonymous account at the Bank of Mars work?

I mean ok to deposit money it will work but to retrieve money from it, you will need to some prove that the account is yours. And so setting one up would require information about you.

Grypd · 2004-06-23 10:43:13

Set up a bank acccount, EASY

All you have to do is set up the account with a passcode or more than one, a specific account number bank supplied you dont even need to leave the earth.

It might have branches in every capital city with a secure set of booths which have an encrypted channel back to the main bank on mars.

Other protections is that you could have a card or similar that will allow you to protect the account
you could even go super security in that the computer you use in the booth is destroyed so ensuring only you know the transaction.

clark · 2004-06-23 13:58:54

Maybe, but then maybe I was just calling his pompous moral bluff.

You're not sure? Or, perhaps you do realize how inane the idea of calling me out based on the notion that I need to submit my financial details to you.

You're not my banking instution, but the way you try to imply that I am some how obliged to inform you here, because I happen to believe that having some type of accountability within the banking sector is neccessary, is rather cheap. Surely you can do better than cheap slights of hand, and actually defend your pitiful exscuse of an idea.

And now it's clear he's a man of moral straw--and perhaps financial straw too, if we are to believe what he says about his socks.

You should see my shoes!

You're talking about setting up a banking instution that really only attracts those who want to hide where and how they get their money. You choose not to know who you do business with so you can claim immunity to any rules of ethics or liability. You don't care where the money comes from, or if your services further crime. That's not your business.

I said it before, what you propose is not immoral. It simply is devoid of any morality or scruples to begin with.

JimM · 2004-06-23 16:46:51

You're not my banking instution, but the way you try to imply that I am some how obliged to inform you here, because I happen to believe that having some type of accountability within the banking sector is neccessary, is rather cheap. Surely you can do better than cheap slights of hand, and actually defend your pitiful exscuse of an idea.

You're the one who set yourself up as a moral paragon with nothing to hide -- until you're asked to show you've nothing to hide. Then suddenly you do. Funny, that.

I set you a very simple logical trap that somewhat to my surprise you fell straight into. (Although I suspect you don't even realise this yet.)

So yes I'm quite sure, your pompous moral bluff has been well and truly called.

clark · 2004-06-24 09:30:35

JimM, I'm full of surprises.

This logical trap of yours is imaginary. Cheap tricks, I've seen them before. So when do you want to actually defend your idea? Or would you rather avoid that entirely and continue and try to denigrate my point based on the assumption that since I hide my financial details from you, I have no leg to stand on?

We can dance all you want.

I have nothing to hide, seeing as such, I freely submit my identity to my bank. I see the value in this. And, if for some reason an authority with the vested interest of protecting society from the criminal element needs to know who I am, I feel secure in the process that exists that allows them to find out who I am, so then we can have a discussion if necessary on where my assets come from. I think this process protects my personal financial details from the random prying eyes, while allowing those who have a legitimate claim in needing that information to gain access in a way that protects both my privacy and societies security.

You're the one falling down the slope, not I. But it's fun to see how smart you really are. :laugh:

JimM · 2004-06-24 13:41:42

JimM, I'm full of surprises.

What you're full of is not surprises.

This logical trap of yours is imaginary.

You're in it, imaginary or not, and still digging. Advice to those in holes like you're in is, stop digging.

Cheap tricks, I've seen them before.

I bet you have; they seem to be your stock in trade.

So when do you want to actually defend your idea?

The idea of opening a bank requires no defence in moral terms. There may be technical arguments this way or that, but that seems outside your area of interest.

...try to denigrate my point based on the assumption that since I hide my financial details from you, I have no leg to stand on?

Here you make it all so clear: I'm not trying to denigrate your point--you abolished your entire argument yourself by your answer. You just don't have the wit to see this yet, apparently.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-24 13:45:48

Quote
JimM, I'm full of surprises.
What you're full of is not surprises.

:laugh:

That made comin' to work today worth it.

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Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

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