A Politically Correct Development Plan - Communism & Socialism & Capitalism

clark · 2004-06-10 09:42:28

I believe that was the most insightful comment I have ever heard from Cindy. :laugh:

Bill White · 2004-06-10 09:46:19

Bill, I agree with your analysis, and I suppose by proxy some of Scott's premise, but my point is this: Conditions on Mars will fuel two major trends, the one toward centralized "socialist" controls and the other toward self-sufficiency and independence. The latter will be further strengthened by the presence of the former.
Early on we will have the socialism described in this thread to some extent, but if we allow it to ossify we'll have problems later on. We need capitalistic factors in play if only to establish a precedent and create an impression of freedom and opportunity. Decentralization of vital systems will be the key. Every colonist having self-controlled life support is ideal, decentralized systems with multiple owners is more realistic, a single centralized system is the worst option.

Provided we can agree that attachment to ideology, whether capitalist or socialist, will be fatal if not tempered by pragmatism to accomodate the harsh conditions of Mars, i can other wise agree with you 100%, Cobra.

clark · 2004-06-10 09:47:32

Please don't forget my "kill switch".

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-10 13:09:40

Provided we can agree that attachment to ideology, whether capitalist or socialist, will be fatal if not tempered by pragmatism to accomodate the harsh conditions of Mars, i can other wise agree with you 100%, Cobra.

I concur.

But attachments to some ideologies are worse than others.

Please don't forget my "kill switch".

Oh, I think Scott's proposal already includes that as a standard feature, it just doesn't show up on the list.

Hmm, I see a novel here, or at least a short film perhaps. Pink Mars, a story of folly and well-intentioned misery.

clark · 2004-06-10 13:11:18

Pink Mars? :laugh:

I liked "Clark's Colony".

DanielCook · 2004-06-10 13:27:16

There's a saying about economics - every economist has a theory, and none of them are wrong (or something like that anyway ...)

Speaking off capitalism v socialism in the context of a single, small initial settlement just does not make sense. The production of goods and services will form a very insignificant portion of the initial settlement, especially if that settlement is largely supported by the off-world (Earth) economies.

Only once you have larger or multiple settlements will this become a question - and even then, IMHO, it will (initially) resemble more of a barter economy than either socialism or capitalism.

Either way - there are few pure socialist states left on Earth - the scandinavian countries referred to all have mixed economies - somewhere in between pure socialism and laisez faire capitalism.

Mundaka · 2004-06-10 14:29:54

Martian Republic · 2004-06-19 09:53:16

I don't like Communism, Socialism or Capitalism for any design of the first colony on Mars. I like the American Economic System based on the General Welfare and government banking system.

You finance building the infrastructure through an FDR type Treasury generated credit that can be tax deferred, you can have O% interest rates or written off the debt because the government owns the debt. It would be a Hamilton type self-extinguishing debt that he used during the First National Banking system.

I would have the central government own the water, air supply the main complex, the subways system, the space port, etc., but I would have family farms, private contractor to do the maintains on the subways system, run the factories, run the stores or hotels or restraints, but it would be under government regulations.

Larry,

~Eternal~ · 2004-06-19 13:19:41

American Economy most likely won't even suvive another 15 years on Earth.

smurf975 · 2004-06-19 13:46:52

American Economy most likely won't even suvive another 15 years on Earth.

I might be true if the rumors that I hear that oil producing countries want euro's instead of dollars for oil. As the value of the dollar is coupled to oil. As long people need oil they need dollars.

If the dollar then takes a plunge then all the government loans will be worthless to the holders and they will be selling them like crazy and the government can't pay its dept anymore.

~Eternal~ · 2004-06-19 14:23:17

Did you know that Iraq was going to use the Euro just prior to the way?

Interesting aye?

smurf975 · 2004-06-19 15:17:41

Did you know that Iraq was going to use the Euro just prior to the way?
Interesting aye?

Yeah it was that fact the let me to reading articles about the pending dollar crisis.

But I thought Iraq was already using euro's and Saddam made some big money out of it as the Euro was and still is rising against the dollar. It was changed back to the dollar after GWII

Martian Republic · 2004-06-20 13:08:19

American Economy most likely won't even suvive another 15 years on Earth.

Beside the fact that the Current economic system was not model after the American Economic system, but was model after the British system of free trade, free enterprise Capitalistic economy. And yes, if America keep doing what it doing right now, the United States is finished and so is it economy. That I'm in total agreement with you and you will get no argument from me.

For those of you that don't know what the real American System of Economics is and I'm also thinking about my fellow Americans when I make this statement about American Economic System. But, before I go over the economic system, let have a little history so you don't think I'm making this stuff up and that you might know that I have a valid argument.

This system was first pioneered by the puritans in Massachusetts and later Alexander Hamilton setup the First National Bank and it was a Federal Government Corporation that was owned and operated by the Federal Government. Abraham Lincoln gave the Treasury Department the power to create credit and he was able to fight a civil war, rebuild the South after the civil war and industrialize the North, which made the United States a world power. America go into a depression in the 1930's and FDR give the power to generate credit to the Treasury Department to create the credit to finance America's recovery from the Depression and get the United States ready to fight a World War, rebuild the rest of the world with the Breton Wood Agreement. Most of what the United States has done in space can be traced back to John F. Kennedy and he gave the Treasury the power to create credit though executive order 11110 and made the national mission statement that we are going to the moon in this decade.

So the American Economic system revolves around the Federal Government having the power to creat credit and invest that generated credit to building the physical economy up. You also have to couple that with tariff, duties and government regulations to make the U.S. Economy.

When ever the United States function within the perimeter of what the U.S. Constitution set down along with controlling the money system, credit and promotes the business activities to the best interest of the American, then America does very well as a Nation.

But, when America get away from the principle of what is written in the U.S. Constitution, then America does very poorly. Not only that, but if America continues with the policies of George Bush, America my even cease to exist as a nation. The Federal Reserve is a Private Banking System and is part of the disease that is afflicting America and the world banking system afflicts the rest of the world.

So for the United States to go back to that American System, we would have to put the Federal Reserve System into bankruptcy and tens of trillions of worthless dollars would have to be written off. We would have to do that, just to get back to "O" point on the debt we owe and we would probably have a conference to negotiate with the rest of the world and see what should and should not be paid with the rest of the world.

Now we going to have to restart the U.S. Economy again and our tax base is totally gone, so guess how we would have to do it. We will either give the Treasury Department the right to generate credit or form a Third National Banking system owned and operated by the Federal Government. Instead if putting this paper in the banks or in Wall Street and generating debt, we are going to invest in the physical economy like levitated trains, subway, factories, farms, mining, electric power plants, build new city, build space station, build city in space, etc. If the U.S. did this, the U.S. Economy would rebound, but the first few year would be a little rough, because the infrastructures inside the United States has been looted and is colapsing so it needs to totally rebuild America, it would take about twenty to thirty years to do that. Now the amount of credit that the United State would have to generate "PER YEAR" would be about "ONE TRILLION PER YEAR"! Now without the authority of the American Government to be able to generate that much credit, the U.S. could not rebound and will not economically rebound and nor could the United States possibly rebound economically. But at that rate of generating credit over a fifty year period the United States would have generated fifty trillion dollars of investment capital to rebuild America and to engage in space development projects. Once my country get out of the hole we dug for themselves and return to this "OLD AMERICAN ECONOMIC SYSTEM", we would not be worrying about what things are going cost in United States, in space or any where else for that matter.

Larry,

Socrates · 2004-08-29 14:23:21

Mr. Beach, Its almost perfectly politically correct, but your missing a few things. One the communists might outnumber the socialists (this would be especially likely to happen if China got to Mars) and thus be denied thier political freedom. Secondly there also needs to be a capitalist section of the Martian colony. Hey, I'm not a fan of capitalism, but I believe that if this was a truly politically correct colony it would have a few capitalists and I don't see any in you colony (although I admittedly speed read through you post )

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-08 04:26:41

Colombia’s first leftist president says war on drugs has failed
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ … has-failed

Canadian cancer scientist hoping for role on China’s Tiangong Space Station
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … gong-space

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-16 03:36:18

An Atheist America coming?

Christianity in the U.S. is quickly shrinking and may no longer be the majority religion within just a few decades, research finds
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christiani … -research/

A new report by Pew Research Center and the General Social Survey published on Tuesday found that the large numbers of people in the U.S who practice Christianity are declining. The religion's demographic has been dwindling since the 1990s, the report said, as many adults transition to an identity of atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular.
In the early '90s, about 90% of people in the U.S. identified as Christians, the report said. In 2020, Christians accounted for about 64% of the U.S. population, including children. Meanwhile, those who are not affiliated with a religion has grown from 16% in 2007 to 30% in 2020, according to the research. All other religions, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, accounted for about 6% in 2020.

Would America still be American without its founding Father religions?

'Communism - Just like Star Trek'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2809

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