The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 05:22:20

This is the link to the space.com exclusive on John kerry's views:

http://space.com/news/kerry_report_0406 … 40616.html

A couple important things to note:
1)Kerry supports the restructuring of NASA to be bolder and more efficient

2)Kerry states that the new initiative lacks the funding needed to make true change.

Before a lot of Bush supporters jump in and say 'but hes timing this to counter Bush's speech and the commission's release of suggestions', I know. Yes, this is a politically timed statement. NASA and its problems are not center-stage in public interest, so he is making his statements at this time and we probably won't hear more from him about it unless this becomes a hotter topic of debate in public opinion.

I think that the important thing to note is that he has taken a stand on the issue (albeit a mild one) and we can now vote for Kerry with the assurance that we can collectively hold his feet to the fire.

For example: Budget deficits are being reduced during his administration. NASA isn't recieving additional funding. Where's the beef Kerry?

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 05:27:35

I think that the important thing to note is that he has taken a stand on the issue (albeit a mild one) and we can now vote for Kerry with the assurance that we can collectively hold his feet to the fire.

:laugh:

Oh, that's good. I'm not trying to be condescending, but don't you think that maybe, just maybe you're grasping at straws here, given Kerry's less than exemplary record of consistency?

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 06:25:10

Cobra, you know as well as I that Democrats try to paint Republicans as greedy ba$tards, and Republicans try to paint Democrats as 'wafflers'. Politicians in general have a problem with consistency so Kerry isn't the exception to the rule.

Clinton was often critisized for changing his stance on issues based on popular opinion and I never understood why. Isn't a representitives job to represent the public? If the public majority thinks a certain way, don't you want your leaders taking that stance? Is it better to have a politician tell you what is right and wrong and to take a stand regardless of what the public wants?

The only time that a leader should take a stand contrary to what america (and the world) wants is when the public is stuck in ou-tmoded thinking such as discrimination.

And btw, as much as I support space exploration I would vote for Kerry because I disagree on Bush's policy on 90% of the issues. So even if Kerry wanted to burn NASA to the ground, I would still vote for him.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 06:35:33

Clinton was often critisized for changing his stance on issues based on popular opinion and I never understood why. Isn't a representitives job to represent the public? If the public majority thinks a certain way, don't you want your leaders taking that stance? Is it better to have a politician tell you what is right and wrong and to take a stand regardless of what the public wants?

I suppose that could all come down to a fundamnetal difference in philosphy. If you take the perspective that leaders should always be representative of their people, then we should always have a waffling poll-reader that bends with the wind.

I would argue that leaders should lead and therefore need core beliefs and the fortitude to stand by them even if unpopular.

And I'm certainly not saying Bush qualifies, he's done plenty of waffling and fudging himself. Just not as a rule.

And btw, as much as I support space exploration I would vote for Kerry because I disagree on Bush's policy on 90% of the issues. So even if Kerry wanted to burn NASA to the ground, I would still vote for him.

I hear you there, I'm on the other side of that stance. I disagree with 90% of what Kerry would do, based on his record, and even if he wanted to rebuild the World Trade Center on Mars I wouldn't vote for him. Fundamental, irreconcilable differences of philosphophy and we're not even going to start shooting at each other, ain't America great.

dicktice · 2004-06-17 11:00:54

Am I the only one who thinks John Kerry could play the part of President Abraham Lincoln in a movie almost without any makeup?

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 11:14:53

Am I the only one who thinks John Kerry could play the part of President Abraham Lincoln in a movie almost without any makeup?

Now that you mention it... slap on a fake beard, yeah...

Except for his demonstrated inability to act convincingly.

Rxke · 2004-06-17 11:15:47

(Dang! now i can clean my keyboard from spilled-through-the-nose-coffee *again!*)

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 12:21:19

Cobra, I too believe that leaders should lead. As much as I disagree with Reagan policy, he was a leader. I realize that your opinion of Clinton must be pretty low, but I count him as a strong leader too. Bush I & II, Carter were not strong leaders. I can't cite more examples because these are the presidents I have grown up with (30 yrs old).

However, being lead does have it's drawbacks. For example, our parents were our first leaders. Imagine if nobody ever reached adulthood, what would the world be like? As I'm sure you realize, there comes a time when people must lead themselves. I don't feel that either side is taking measures to produce literate, intelligent, independent thinking Americans.

Both sides have had their chance at bat so to speak. the republican sollution seems to be a sink-or-swim tactic where they cut public education funding and strive for things like school vouchers which only help already well established schools. Democrats want to raise the level of public education funding but that doesn't seem to help either.

I am forced to conclude that the problem is the system itself. Thinking back to my school days, it seems that the smartest kids were freaks/nerds (outcasts) and kids from wealthy families. I can attribute the 'preps' being smart by their having educated parents and computers in their homes. Some of the freaks were smart probably for similar reasons. The vast majority of students are rather dumb to be honest. Why is this?

I believe it is rooted into the very nature of our culture. From a very earlier age we are encouraged to conform. The sex of a baby determines what toys the child gets. Later on, peer pressure forces kids to one side or the other. As adults we live in a world where we have very specialized jobs.

In school and at home, I was told countless times that the way to make more money was to get a better job. To get a 'better' job you have to have a 'better' education. See where I am going with this? Not once did anyone tell me that the way to make the most money is buy things cheap and sell them at a higher price, or to develop something that people MUST have!

Also I must point out that the most important thing that most of us will ever do is to raise a child. Not one parenting class is offered at the high school level.

Perhaps it is time to scrap reading, writing and arithmetic and start teaching people how to be literate, intelligent, independent thinking adults?

clark · 2004-06-17 12:34:06

Perhaps it is time to scrap reading, writing and arithmetic and start teaching people how to be literate, intelligent, independent thinking adults?

How exactly do you create independant thinking adults who are intelligent and literate without teaching them reading, writing, and aritmetic?

I believe it is rooted into the very nature of our culture. From a very earlier age we are encouraged to conform.

No, it is our nature to conform in order to develop an identity by which we are able to understand and navigate within the world.

In school and at home, I was told countless times that the way to make more money was to get a better job. To get a 'better' job you have to have a 'better' education.

You're talking about opportunity and choice. In order to have more opportunity, you must choose things that lead to greater opportunity. Like learning another language, developing your inter personal skills, becoming good at cooking, learning to play a musical instrument, becoming competant at driving a vehicle or shooting a gun. Education and experience provide one greater opportunity, more opportunity means more choices that you get to make.

Universal education and meritocracy allows for the greatest amount of choice and opportunity for an individual. It's up to you to make the most of it, and it isn't anyones fault if you were told differently. Get a therapist and hash out your complaints about your parents.

Also I must point out that the most important thing that most of us will ever do is to raise a child. Not one parenting class is offered at the high school level.

I think of important things like finding the cure for cancer, ending world hunger, bringing about peace in out times, finding goodwill among men, making heaven here on Earth. Maybe we should teach classes on that. :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 12:35:14

Unfortunately one person's attempt to create "literate, intelligent, independent thinking adults" is another's attempt at indoctrination. Who decides what's independent, intelligent, etc?

Perhaps what we really need is to not have specialized education degrees. Math, engineering, literature; these fields attract people interested in the subject matter for its own sake. Education, on the other hand, tends to attract people who "love children" or want to "make the world a better place." University education departments are the academic slums. Perhaps, at least for subjects beyond elementary school, we don't need 'educators' so much as competent people who can impart their knowledge of subjects they know well and have devoted their lives to.

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 13:15:11

-Quote
Perhaps it is time to scrap reading, writing and arithmetic and start teaching people how to be literate, intelligent, independent thinking adults?

How exactly do you create independant thinking adults who are intelligent and literate without teaching them reading, writing, and aritmetic?

Clark, what I meant is that there is no emphasis on independent thought, in fact it is discouraged. Yes you need the basics, but we don't live in a basic world. There is no room in modern schools for growth of the mind beyond what someone else has said to be true.

-Quote
I believe it is rooted into the very nature of our culture. From a very earlier age we are encouraged to conform.

No, it is our nature to conform in order to develop an identity by which we are able to understand and navigate within the world.

I couldn't disagree more with you here. Show me a parent that gives dolls to their son, and I'll show you an uncle that says his brother is raising a 'fag'. Countless times through the ages parents have echoed the phrase 'why can't you be more like [insert name]'. Never do you hear 'why can't you be different than.....'. Conformity is safe and secure, independent thought is reckless and dangerous.

-Quote
In school and at home, I was told countless times that the way to make more money was to get a better job. To get a 'better' job you have to have a 'better' education.

Universal education and meritocracy allows for the greatest amount of choice and opportunity for an individual. It's up to you to make the most of it, and it isn't anyones fault if you were told differently. Get a therapist and hash out your complaints about your parents.

Ah but if only schools were universal...
Public education and colleges are as different as people. Many schools offer a different classes beyond the basics. Since where you are born determines what school you go to, it also determines if music and foreign languages are available. Schools that consist of mainly minorities offer fewer choices than white schools. I'm guessing you are white Clark, since you don't see a problem.

As for my parents, they weren't perfect but I was blessed to have intelligent, open-minded parents. If you look back at my post earlier you will see that I was and am talking about public education. Perhaps you have need of a therapist since you assumed my parents were at fault?

-Quote
Also I must point out that the most important thing that most of us will ever do is to raise a child. Not one parenting class is offered at the high school level.

I think of important things like finding the cure for cancer, ending world hunger, bringing about peace in out times, finding goodwill among men, making heaven here on Earth. Maybe we should teach classes on that.

Good causes to be sure, but don't you need intelligent open-minded people to tackle these problems? My point is that most people, including yourself Clark, don't think that raising a child is all that important. Anyone can make a baby, but to produce an intelligent, healthy adult is much harder.

Dook · 2004-06-17 13:16:39

I might be off topic by now in replying to the original post but here goes.

I would love to vote for someone other than Bush but Kerry gives me nothing to vote for. Kerry's entire campaign consists of slandering Bush to win public support rather than promoting Kerry's views. It's not enough for me. I know where the current administration stands and while I do not agree with every approach the Bush administration takes it's better than voting in a complete wild card.

Once at a rally someone asked Kerry whether he would end racial profiling and he shouted out that he would because he did not believe a person's race should be an issue in a criminal investigation. The courts have already set the rules regarding race and criminal investigations. To me this shows that Kerry is someone who says what he thinks the people want to hear rather than what he really thinks. He's afraid to tell his views because he doesn't want to open himself up to criticism but that is the only way for him to be sure his way is the right way. No one man has all the solutions. The President many times must choose the lesser of many evils. Iraq. Taxes. Debt. Economy. For Kerry to get my vote he needs to give me a complete rundown of his policy ideas.

I believe Bush has learned in his first term and will do better in a second term.

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 13:24:25

Cobra, you don't think a test could be devised to test for intelligence, literacy and independent thought? The first two have already been conquered but no one cares if someone is reaching their own conclusions or just echoing what others have said.

I would agree that our education system and workforce has become over-specialized. Restructuring NASA is a big problem because rocket-scientists can't do anything but their favorite rocket so they will likely find themselves out of a job.

BTW, I curious what you opinion of Clinton is. Good president? Bad president? What do you think of Hillary being our president in 2008?

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 13:36:46

Cobra, you don't think a test could be devised to test for intelligence, literacy and independent thought?

Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet on it. First, you have to literate to take it unless it's oral, and even then there could be misleading results on the intelligence factors (I don't put much stock in IQ tests) and how do you test independant thought? And sometimes going with the group is the right answer anyway.

BTW, I curious what you opinion of Clinton is. Good president? Bad president? What do you think of Hillary being our president in 2008?

I think Clinton was a weak President. He didn't lead, he just followed the wind for the most part. I think Clinton was a better President than a committed, flaming liberal would have been, but I don't think particularly highly of him as a President. I don't have the hate towards him that some on the right do, he's probably kinda fun to hang out with. But I wouldn't say he was a good President.

Hillary? Aside from disagreeing with practically every position she's ever espoused, I don't think she has the experience, sense or temperment to be President. I don't trust her, and I don't like her. I wouldn't vote for her under any circumstances. And I'm not alone in that, I don't expect that we'll face that contigency. She's too divisive.

~Eternal~ · 2004-06-17 13:39:40

I agree, before we leave LEO we should atleast have a craft to rival that of the Saturn V.

We simply don't have the reliable technology to leave LEO yet.

clark · 2004-06-17 13:41:58

Clark, what I meant is that there is no emphasis on independent thought, in fact it is discouraged. Yes you need the basics, but we don't live in a basic world. There is no room in modern schools for growth of the mind beyond what someone else has said to be true.

If you can learn to read, you can learn anything, including how to think for yourself. Schools give you the tools to think, it's up to the individual if they will use them, or how they will use them. It's a choice a person has to make on their own.

I couldn't disagree more with you here. Show me a parent that gives dolls to their son, and I'll show you an uncle that says his brother is raising a 'fag'. Countless times through the ages parents have echoed the phrase 'why can't you be more like [insert name]'. Never do you hear 'why can't you be different than.....'. Conformity is safe and secure, independent thought is reckless and dangerous.

My parents gave me dolls. You might call them G.I. joe "action figures". Kids play with the things they find fun, parents are the ones with the issues. My parents told me, "don't be like that Cobra kid." They also told me, "you can be like, or better, than that Armstrong guy." Independant thought without wisdom is folly- that's why parents tell you to be like so and so. Experience provides a framework by which one can make valued judgements, something most children are incapable of because they neccessairly lack said experience.

As for my parents, they weren't perfect but I was blessed to have intelligent, open-minded parents. If you look back at my post earlier you will see that I was and am talking about public education. Perhaps you have need of a therapist since you assumed my parents were at fault?

Don't worry, I have a whole team. They feed me pills, I go out and talk to people, then come back, talk to the team, they write things down, and feed me more pills. On good days, they take me to the park and I get to wear one of those over sized novelty hands.

Public education and colleges are as different as people. Many schools offer a different classes beyond the basics. Since where you are born determines what school you go to, it also determines if music and foreign languages are available. Schools that consist of mainly minorities offer fewer choices than white schools. I'm guessing you are white Clark, since you don't see a problem.

That's right, throw color into the mix. What does that tell you Mr. Free thinker? If I'm white, i must have had all the breaks, huh? You're really as smart as you sound, ya know.

It seems that schools offering different things provide for greater choices for people, no? Now, some offer better education than others, some are more effective, and I'm all for maintaining a certain level of basic achievment and quality in education, but it certainly isn't in our best interest to have everyone learn the same god damn thing from the same damn text book or in the same manner.

Good causes to be sure, but don't you need intelligent open-minded people to tackle these problems? My point is that most people, including yourself Clark, don't think that raising a child is all that important.

Wow, now you know what I think?! Quick, what number am I thinking of? Wrong, I was thinking of the color blue.

How shall we raise the children then? What is the best way to raise a child? Spare the rod and spoil the child? How should we raise Christian Scientist children? How about Amish children? How about Jewish, Catholic, or Muslim children? How shall we raise handicap children?

You want to regulate who can and cannot raise a child, fine, I can talk to the cows come home. You want to instutite a standard procedure on how all children are raised and I say you are daft.

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 13:42:51

Hi Dook!

I read an article the other day in USAToday where Kerry laid out his plans for Iraq. He was very articulate and wasn't slandering. In fact, he didn't bring Bush's name up once. Of coarse they had Bush's cheif campaign advisors spin on it and he so much as said that Kerry was politicizing the events in Iraq.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kerry running for a position currently held by Bush? The reporter asked Kerry what he would do if he were president and he answered. Since when are we not allowed to offer our opinions on matters?

I remember supporters of Bush in the 2000 election saying 'the votes have been counted and re-counted' over and over till the public believed it. The facts are that all the votes were never counted. Today, there are thousands of missing ballots in crucial counties of Florida.

I don't think Kerry has bashed Bush nearly as much as Bush has bashed Kerry. In fact, campaign spending records show that the Bush campaign has spent about four times the money on negative ads as the Kerry campaign.

On 'waffling':
As soon as Kerry emerged as the Democratic leader, the Bush camp decided to use his long service in Congress against him. If you look at anyone's record over 20 or so years, you are going to see changes. Can anyone honestly say that they feel and think the same way they did 20 years ago? I can't.

The Bush camp spent something like $40 million to paint Kerry as someone who changes his mind constantly and apparently it has worked. It is really frightening how easily people are swayed.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 13:53:32

The Bush camp spent something like $40 million to paint Kerry as someone who changes his mind constantly and apparently it has worked. It is really frightening how easily people are swayed.

Well, here's just one example. A few months back Kerry was in Detroit. He spoke to some UAW workers, talking about improving the economy to spur more vehicle sales, praised the workers for building American cars, blah blah blah. Then he spoke to a local Muslim group (we have a lot of Muslims here) and condemned Israel's wall building efforts and activities in the West Bank.

Shortly thereafter he's out of state talkign with enviromentalists, blasting the SUV and calling for more regulation, which of course hurts the UAW workers he neglected to mention it to. Then he's talking to Jewish groups and all but praising Israel. No mention of the West Bank, no wall, no "well, these Muslims in Detroit told me..." Later when confronted about the apparent discrepencies, instead of just clarifying a position he tried to squirm out of it. I'm sure you remember the whole 'members of my family own SUV's, not me' bit that was played on the networks for a couple days. That's what he does. I don't mind that he's changed over the years, but it worries me that he changes from day to day depending on who's listening.

clark · 2004-06-17 13:54:54

Okay Mr. "I respect France".

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 13:59:04

Sorry about offending you by bringing up your 'whiteness'.

Seriously though, I think you are missing my points, no offence.

Schools don't offer the same opportunity.
Teachers and parent discourage independent thought.
Basic child care should be a taught class.

Call me daft, but yes I think there are fundamentals to raising a child to adulthood.

I carefully read your posts Clark, but all I see is critisism and no solutions. Do you think things are just fine they way they are?

And Cobra, ok so ya don't like Willy. No biggie. I bet he'd be a blast at a keg party tho!

Ahhh Hillary.....how long must this fire in my loins go on?!?!

Love her or hate her. She isn't stupid. I would love to see a female president in my lifetime. We really need presidents other than old white men if we are to realize our true potential as a nation.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 14:03:33

Love her or hate her. She isn't stupid. I would love to see a female president in my lifetime. We really need presidents other than old white men if we are to realize our true potential as a nation.

I detect some 'old whitey' bigotry here. I'm placin' a call to the NAAOWM.

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 14:10:30

Ok yea I remember the lame SUV comment he tried to squirm out of. Hey, I'm not saying the guy's perfect. These are the kinds of choices we get for president when the public is so stupid about politics.

How about this: 'Ms. Rice will not be testifying before the 9/11 commission........well ok.'

And Bush didn't want to testify either until public pressure forced him to and then he had to do it in secret and with Dick Cheney! That's waffleing isn't it?

What about our invasion of Iraq?
'Saddam has missles that violate UN resolutions. He must disarm them or we will make him.'
Saddam disarmed, but was still attacked.

My point is that politicians will say anything the public wants to hear. Kerry hasn't changed his poisitions anymore than Bush has. Well maybe a little more, it is an election year after all

clark · 2004-06-17 14:15:16

I'm not offended, just surprised that you would try and make it an issue. You seemed smarter than that. If I am white, then you say such a thing to belittle me, if I'm not white, then you make a grand assumption and belittle me. It has nothing to do with trying to prove your point.

Believe me, I get where you're coming from.

Schools don't offer the same opportunity.

I agreed that minimum requirements need to be maintained, didn't I? Dosen't that imply an understanding of this point? There is a difference between having a minimum requirement on achievement and goals for a school, and requiring them all to teach the same exact thing, the same way, with the same information. One way is rigid and inflexible and creates automotons. the other way is flexible and allows for creativty and the changing of time. Which do you think will result in more independant free thinkers?

Teachers and parent discourage independent thought.

Opinion, nothing more. Your viewpoint, even though you say your own parents encouraged the opposite behavior in you. How do you reconcile the fact that you are special, but the majority has gotten a raw deal? What do you base this assumption on? Numbers? Anecdotal accounts? the state of TV? What is it that allows you to speak with such assurity? Isn't it nothing more than a feeling?

If teachers discourage independant thought, wouldn't having teachers teach parenting lead to parents who do not teach their children to be independant free thinkers? Might want to rethink this master plan of yours.

Basic child care should be a taught class.

No, it shouldn't. Sex ed should be taught in class. If a person gets pregnant, they should go take child rearing classes for no other reason than it might help them. Don't force kids to learn something they don't need to think about until they have to think about it. It's not like the babies just pop out all of a sudden. And I doubt teaching kids how to raise kids for a semester, like government, is really going to be all that helpful.

I carefully read your posts Clark, but all I see is critisism and no solutions. Do you think things are just fine they way they are?

Yeah, here is my suggestion, don't teach parenting classes in school. Expect people to take the damn interest in it for their own sakes (and their childs) and let them take the class on their own,. Why should I impose, or be imposed upon, to learn something that may be irelevant to another individual?

Not everyone wants kids, but making people take a class white-washes this by assuming that everyone will have kids.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-17 14:21:35

How about this: 'Ms. Rice will not be testifying before the 9/11 commission........well ok.'

She was under no obligation to and doing so risked setting a precedent that could undermine the separation of powers. The Executive branch does not have to submit to every request of the Legislative just because they want to ask a few questions.

And Bush didn't want to testify either until public pressure forced him to and then he had to do it in secret and with Dick Cheney! That's waffleing isn't it?

Bush didn't want to for the same reason. Why he and Cheney were both there, I had a WTF about that too.

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a big fan of this Administration, I just have yet to see a better alternative.

What about our invasion of Iraq?
'Saddam has missles that violate UN resolutions. He must disarm them or we will make him.'
Saddam disarmed, but was still attacked.

He didn't disarm. Iraq fired banned missiles at the CentCom HQ in Qatar in the opening weeks of the war. Patriots shot them down. Maybe there is something to that missile defense stuff.

My point is that politicians will say anything the public wants to hear. Kerry hasn't changed his poisitions anymore than Bush has. Well maybe a little more, it is an election year after all

That's just it, we've got two bad choices, but one is essentially a known quantity after four years. I'd really like to kick Bush out over a number of issues, but what's the alternative? Kerry's big thing is that he isn't Bush. Yippee. His Iraq plan went from "We'll do it smarter" to a ho-hum acceptance that we need to stay and rebuild or it's going to make it worse. Essentially 'I'll do what Bush is doing, so vote for me.'
???

Why can't politicians just say what they think and let people get pissed about it? I do. Of course, I don't win elections either. Stupid game.

deagleninja · 2004-06-17 14:33:01

Ok Clark, for the sake of time I'm going to keep this brief and address the two main points: child care classes and school opportunity.

Child Care Classes-
Now I am not trying to put words in your mouth but you seem to be against any public school class of this nature. Your arguement is that why should we force a class on people that they may not need or if they do it is years down the road.

My responce: A child care class would include sex ed. Child care starts before birth so an understanding of conception and STDs is paramount. Regardless of who has children or when or if they do, we ALL encounter children. Who doesn't? A boy or girl would benefit from a class like this regardless.

School Opportunity-
Again, I think you are missing my point. There isn't the same opportunity available to our nation's children. Some schools offer 3 dozen different coarses and some offer only the basics. This is determined by student interest in part, but mainly by the school's budget. And unfortunately, it is schools with mainly non-white student bodies that suffer the most. If 'Joe' wants to learn Japanesse, but can't because of budget problems, is this equal opportunity?

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2004-06-17 05:22:20

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#2 2004-06-17 05:27:35

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#3 2004-06-17 06:25:10

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#4 2004-06-17 06:35:33

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#5 2004-06-17 11:00:54

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#6 2004-06-17 11:14:53

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#7 2004-06-17 11:15:47

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#8 2004-06-17 12:21:19

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#9 2004-06-17 12:34:06

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#10 2004-06-17 12:35:14

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#11 2004-06-17 13:15:11

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#12 2004-06-17 13:16:39

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#13 2004-06-17 13:24:25

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#14 2004-06-17 13:36:46

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#15 2004-06-17 13:39:40

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#16 2004-06-17 13:41:58

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#17 2004-06-17 13:42:51

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#18 2004-06-17 13:53:32

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#19 2004-06-17 13:54:54

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#20 2004-06-17 13:59:04

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#21 2004-06-17 14:03:33

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#22 2004-06-17 14:10:30

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#23 2004-06-17 14:15:16

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#24 2004-06-17 14:21:35

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

#25 2004-06-17 14:33:01

Re: The Kerry Factor - John Kerry's Views of PlanBush

Board footer