I give up.... - Manned mission to Mars.

GOM · 2002-06-21 10:12:21

Yesterday I read the news that there might be a lunar base established by 2020. Obviously Mars will be years after that, if we ever send a manned mission to Mars.

I seriously doubt I will live long enough to see it happen.

Based on how poorly the ISS has been handled, I don't even think my kids will get to see a person on Mars. I hope I'm wrong.

Phobos · 2002-06-21 12:48:07

I feel your pain. I don't understand what the big deal is about setting up lunar bases before we go to Mars. Some argue that we need to go to the Moon to learn how to colonize Mars, but the two environments are so different that going to the Moon won't make a difference anyway. The methods for making rocket fuel and extracting water on the moon are far different and less efficient than you'd use on Mars. Really though, at this point in time, I'd be surprised if we even got so far as to set up some half-baked lunar base.

Mark S · 2002-06-21 14:06:33

Don't despair, GOM. I feel the same way. The best that a space enthusiast can do right now is to lobby your government officials and support grassroots efforts at space exploration, like the Mars Society. The Mars Society, with its three Mars habitats, is probably doing more work in support of a humans-to-Mars initiative than NASA is. It is easy to give up now, but I think that we owe it to future generations to stay in the fight.

Dayton3 · 2002-06-21 20:17:19

All it will take is one U.S President really committed to the space program or one who is really desperate for a long term legacy ala JFK.

And then, we can get to Mars within 9 years of a go order.

GOM · 2002-06-24 10:48:55

The Mars Society, with its three Mars habitats, is probably doing more work in support of a humans-to-Mars initiative than NASA is.

You could easily be right. NASA only seems interested in sending robots to Mars. Not that sending humans will be easy, but it's way past time to get serious about it.

Adrian · 2002-06-24 11:18:25

While I agree with all the sentiments expressed here, let's look at it from the point of the US govt. and NASA (not that I necessarily agree with them):

o Humans to Mars is expensive. We could use the money on countless other things.

o It's dangerous. What happens if someone dies? The public will hate us.

o Robots are nice and cheap and people won't care too much if they crash. Plus, they actually do produce good scientific results, and they seem to keep most people happy.

o Space exploration is not in favour right now, and NASA can't do anything right. Just look at how they handled the ISS - if that can't do that, how are they supposed to handle a Mars mission?

o The public isn't that bothered about going.

So for them, there's no real urge to go. I can think of rebuttals for each of the points above, but even so they all have an element of truth in them, which is why the US government still believes in them.

GOM · 2002-06-24 11:29:14

While I agree with all the sentiments expressed here, let's look at it from the point of the US govt. and NASA (not that I necessarily agree with them):
o Humans to Mars is expensive. We could use the money on countless other things.
o It's dangerous. What happens if someone dies? The public will hate us.
o Robots are nice and cheap and people won't care too much if they crash. Plus, they actually do produce good scientific results, and they seem to keep most people happy.
o Space exploration is not in favour right now, and NASA can't do anything right. Just look at how they handled the ISS - if that can't do that, how are they supposed to handle a Mars mission?
o The public isn't that bothered about going.
So for them, there's no real urge to go. I can think of rebuttals for each of the points above, but even so they all have an element of truth in them, which is why the US government still believes in them.

Hey! Wait a minute!!

I thought you were in favor of sending humans to Mars....

Right? Or did I misunderstand?

Given the points you make, what would change the equation, in your opinion?

1. Water on Mars?

2. Life on Mars?

3. Signs of previous intelligent life on Mars?

4. Other?

Adrian · 2002-06-24 12:08:30

I'm all in favour of sending humans to Mars - I was just playing devil's advocate ("while I agree with all the sentiments expressed here...", "I can think of rebuttals for each of the points above...") - it's always useful to see how the 'other side' thinks.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-27 01:34:44

So, as far as NASA and the USA is concerned, are we back to procrastinating until the technology improves (and becomes much cheaper) or until someone like China starts looking like a serious rival?
Either way, like GOM, I wonder whether that attitude will take us well into the middle of this century before anything happens!
???

GOM · 2002-06-27 09:51:39

I'm feeling slightly more optimistic today.

If Zubrin can really do it for 3 to 5 billion, or even for 10 billion dollars, we still have a chance....

Mark S · 2002-06-28 07:44:43

Does Zubrin even has a chance to get to a significant position within NASA's Mars program to get things as he wants? I mean with all the respect I have for him, he's a 'simple' Lockheed employee who's been lobbying against their agenda for the past 10 years.

In all fairness, Zubrin was never a "Lockheed" employee. He was a Martin employee just before that company merged with Lockheed. I don't know the exact date when Zubrin left Lockheed Martin, but he has now become one of the most respected men in the astronautical engineering community. All of the documentaries about the Mars Society's research stations are giving the organization, as well as Zubrin's ideas, a lot of face time. Eventually people will support Zubrin and the Mars Society, and NASA will have to adopt their ideas.

Also keep in mind that NASA has listened to Zubrin in the past--the 1993 reference mission was based on Mars Direct.

C M Edwards · 2002-06-28 11:34:59

We have to admit that, apart from lobbying & raising funds for her own Mars-supporting R&D, the Mars Society won't have a direct say on space exploration. Unless there is a sudden wide change in the public opinion or a (very) generous donator presents himself.

How generous a donor would that have to be?

CME

Mark S · 2002-06-28 13:05:17

I believe that the Mars Society could do some extraordinary things if it could partner itself with some of the aerospace giants, like Boeing, Orbital Sciences, or Lockheed Martin. $30 billion is a lot of money for the Mars Society, but the aerospace giants could certainly afford it. The reason why they don't jump aboard is because they don't see any profit motive in going to Mars.

If a major television network funded Mars Direct, could they make enough money off the TV rights to justify the cost? It's a question of how much interest the public has in space exploration. I would enjoy seeing something along the lines of "Survivor: Mars," where TV viewers would follow the exploits of the astronaut candidates as they go through space camp. Winners are chosen and then flown to Mars, and non-stop coverage of the mission will be broadcast on cable television.

Maybe it's time that I quit my daydreaming...

Palomar · 2002-06-28 14:13:19

Don't despair, GOM. I feel the same way. The best that a space enthusiast can do right now is to lobby your government officials and support grassroots efforts at space exploration, like the Mars Society. The Mars Society, with its three Mars habitats, is probably doing more work in support of a humans-to-Mars initiative than NASA is. It is easy to give up now, but I think that we owe it to future generations to stay in the fight.

*I'd also recommend reading Ayn Rand's essay "Apollo 11", which can be found in Volume 5 of _The Ayn Rand Library, The Voice of Reason: Essays in Objectivist Thought_.

It definitely serves to give one "a charge," and the finer points of the essay could serve to assist in explaining to others [not that I'm advocating ::proselytizing::-type activities, so don't get me wrong] the *importance* of space exploration, the glorification of human potential therein, etc.

--Cindy

quasar777 · 2002-06-30 12:04:52

please explain disadvantages of a lunar base.

Phobos · 2002-06-30 17:48:58

Mars has more useful raw materials than the moon that would thus make it easier to colonize and sustain than a moonbase. Sure, the moon has some valuable materials like water, iron, and traces of helium-3 which might become useful someday, but it lacks just about everything else.

Palomar · 2002-07-01 15:58:36

I believe NASA made a huge mistake when they stopped going to the Moon. It's probably not a good idea for the average citizen to travel to the Moon but we should at least put a base there to construct spaceships, mine raw materials, train people, and research labs.

*I see your point, and understand where you are coming from. However, the mindset of the public [in the USA] after Apollo 15 was pretty much, "How many more times are they going to send astronauts to the moon? Just to putt another golf ball or something?"

I have highlights from Apollo 11, 13, and 17 on videotape. The first time I watched it, a few years ago, I got an eerie, sinking feeling in my stomach as I watched the astronaut in the moon buggy waving for the camera; it seemed like a wave goodbye.

Shame on me for not remembering the name of the last astronaut on the moon [I can see his face from that time, but can't remember his name]; he said something to the effect of, "I don't like being referred to as 'the last man on the moon;' I hope I'm NOT the last man on the moon."

The public had grown tired of the Apollo gigs, and felt going back a redundant waste of taxpayer money. I remember, as a kid, the little debates people in my hometown had about it. This was also the era, in the USA, of the Watergate scandal and the ongoing Vietnam war. As an adult, I've become amazed that the USA put men on the moon during Vietnam; however, Watergate definitely had an impact on the American psyche, and I think probably was the coup de grace in finishing off further interest in Apollo...unfortunately.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-07-01 16:42:17

I believe NASA made a huge mistake when they stopped going to the Moon. It's probably not a good idea for the average citizen to travel to the Moon but we should at least put a base there to construct spaceships, mine raw materials, train people, and research labs. The Moon is a logical "jumping off" point so we can do greater missions in space (such as a Mars landing).

I think it would be better and cheaper just to forget the moon and go straight to Mars. It would actually be easier to have a sustained presence on Mars than the moon because you can synthesize fuels directly out of the Martian atmosphere with a chemical reactor, and it's day/night cycles are 24 hours which makes growing food a lot easier. The day/night cycles on the moon would make things like power generation and growing plants difficult. The moon is also very poor in useful minerals, whereas Mars is rich in mineral wealth. Not to mention that it takes almost as much power to get to the moon as to Mars. The only difference is that a trip to the moon is shorter than a trip to Mars. I also think we could do a reasonable job of practicing for a Mars mission here on Earth and the ISS. Anyways I should say that I'm not against a moonbase, I just don't think it's necessary as a requirement for a Mars mission.

TJohn · 2002-08-06 10:50:01

I too get a little "fed up" when I see NASA, to me, go in the complete opposite direction for exploration. NASA is too cautious and they want to take so long in doing things! They are too used to doing things by "remote control". And if money is an issue, I don't understand why they would not want to use Dr. Zubrin's plan. If NASA doesn't want to use the plans, why don't they test them. If they don't work, then they can say "See, I told you so." NASA always talks about doing cheap, inexpensive missions and I understand that $10-15 billion dollars is a lot of money, but look at what will have been accomplished. I'm glad that I found out about the Mars Society and Dr. Zubrin. I just hope that we get there soon. Although there's not much that I can do, I'm not giving up hope!

Onward to Mars!!!

HombrePequeno · 2002-08-09 20:48:38

please explain disadvantages of a lunar base.

There would be no real point to it. I think robotic missions are enough for the moon. A base would be pretty expensive and you wouldn't get much out of it.

quasar777 · 2002-08-27 15:05:10

how do we know so much about the moon all of a sudden? 12 men were there, that`s not much. we may yet make discoveries there. why can`t we salvage the equipment left there? i realize it`s quite obsolete & probably meteor damaged & there are those who wanna make a museum there. what good would a museum do if no1 really is interested in the moon? i think we all know it would be expensive to go there. so what? what if a human mars mssion turns into another apollo? what if it fails? that would setback human space exploration a ways. moon return is quicker, whch is probably the most important factor involved. you can see the earth from the moon which is not only good psychologically, but the added benefit of earth observaton, as good as "satellites". moon return may not be necessary step to mars, but it admittedly can be a step. who knows, the equipment left there could be used to build a marscraft. i`d guarantee if i was on a moon mission, i`d make every effort to continue to mars. actually to some people who are a bit older that`s been the plan all along if moonreturn happened. since the moon is as you people say boring, few resources, etc., what better lunar industry could there possibly be than planning for mars?

Phobos · 2002-08-27 21:40:38

how do we know so much about the moon all of a sudden? 12 men were there, that`s not much. we may yet make discoveries there. why can`t we salvage the equipment left there? i realize it`s quite obsolete & probably meteor damaged & there are those who wanna make a museum there. what good would a museum do if no1 really is interested in the moon?

I've been wondering myself how salvageable the lunar rovers would be. Would the tires still be good? Would the motors still work? I imagine you'd have to replace the batteries but if the rover was made out of materials that could take a good beating from the sun and withstand the high temperature variations, who knows we might already have some transportation waiting on the moon. I'm somewhat pessimistic but considering that the giant movers used to haul the spaceshuttle to the launch pad were expected to last only 30 or so moves maybe that same 1960's engineering would apply to the rovers to.

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#1 2002-06-21 10:12:21

Re: I give up.... - Manned mission to Mars.

#2 2002-06-21 12:48:07

Re: I give up.... - Manned mission to Mars.

#3 2002-06-21 14:06:33

Re: I give up.... - Manned mission to Mars.

#4 2002-06-21 20:17:19

Re: I give up.... - Manned mission to Mars.

#5 2002-06-24 10:48:55

Re: I give up.... - Manned mission to Mars.

#6 2002-06-24 11:18:25

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#7 2002-06-24 11:29:14

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#8 2002-06-24 12:08:30

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#9 2002-06-27 01:34:44

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#10 2002-06-27 09:51:39

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#11 2002-06-28 07:44:43

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#12 2002-06-28 11:34:59

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#13 2002-06-28 13:05:17

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#14 2002-06-28 14:13:19

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#15 2002-06-30 12:04:52

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#16 2002-06-30 17:48:58

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#17 2002-07-01 15:58:36

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#18 2002-07-01 16:42:17

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#19 2002-08-06 10:50:01

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#20 2002-08-09 20:48:38

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#21 2002-08-27 15:05:10

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#22 2002-08-27 21:40:38

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