Send inmates to mars - like in australia

smurf975 · 2004-06-01 15:19:31

Australia was known because it was a penal country for english inmantes.

What about doing the same for Mars?

clark · 2004-06-02 10:15:28

Now that would just be criminal.

Get it? :laugh: [oh nevermind]

smurf975 · 2004-06-02 12:49:02

Okay, I'll bite: Whatever made you think that one up??

Well, in the early days it will be hard to get humans to Mars for several reasons. Radiation, No luxeries, need hard work to get things started etc, etc, etc.

However bases and other constructions need to be build. Who is going to do this? Robots can't as of now. So life sentenced inmates that would just sit and rot in prison should be given a chance to work on Mars doing all sort of pre-colonization work.

To compensate for their hardwork they will earn a nice salary and will be free on Mars.

Hop · 2004-06-02 16:06:58

Okay, I'll bite: Whatever made you think that one up??

Maybe he just reread "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein.

smurf975 · 2004-06-02 16:09:55

Okay, I'll bite: Whatever made you think that one up??
Maybe he just reread "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein.

No just learned from history, Austrialia and many sailors on the first ships were people they found here and there and prisons. And of course science fiction.

smurf975 · 2004-06-02 18:19:48

Sending criminals to Mars, eh? Okay, who do I have to kill? I mean, if that was all it took to get a ticket to Mars, I would definitely become encouraged to lead a life of crime just so that I could get there.
I wouldn't think that this would be something you'd want to encourage.

Ok you may want to go to Mars but the biggest part of Earth's population (who really don't care much for space and stuff) will not go until some basics are done.

And of course if there are enough volunteers that are willing to work in Mars mines, farms and do a lot of other physical and dangerous labor. Then there is no need for the inmates.

Euler · 2004-06-03 01:12:22

Living on Mars successfully and building infrastructure will take a lot of training. It may be difficult finding inmates with the skills necessary to survive.

Josh Cryer · 2004-06-03 01:14:48

No inmate is worth the energy cost to get them there.

RobS · 2004-06-03 17:16:07

1. I suspect volunteers won't be hard to get, especially since if it costs tens to hundreds of millions to get someone there, we can afford to pay them a million or two a year to stay.

2. If you're going to spend that much to get people there, you're going to train them extensively.

3. You don't want anyone on Mars who will murder others or leave both doors of the airlock open, so criminals seem a poor choice.

This isn't a vast continent where anyone with a gun and an axe can clear a farm and make a living.

-- RobS

smurf975 · 2004-06-03 17:17:30

So they'd be setting up the infrastructure, eh? And you don't think that in the lot of them there'd be any embittered and unscrupulous prisoners who would use that position to their advantage? I know I would.

What the heck are they going to do? Sabotage? Then they will die as they depend on the infrastructure them selfs.

Also, sending criminals to Mars to essentially do slave labour could easily qualify as 'cruel and unusual punishment.

Well slave labour. Its like the chaingangs or dismantling computers or doing helpdesk support (which prisoners already do). Remember this is all voluntary and about giving a second chance.

I'm not about sending psychopaths but people that reconize they were wrong in their crime(s).

Living on Mars successfully and building infrastructure will take a lot of training. It may be difficult finding inmates with the skills necessary to survive.

I think that isn't doesn't take a lot if training. As much training as it takes to work in a mine on Earth. Just a list of do's and don'ts. And basically you will use the same Earth machines on Mars for doing construction.

smurf975 · 2004-06-03 17:25:24

1. I suspect volunteers won't be hard to get, especially since if it costs tens to hundreds of millions to get someone there, we can afford to pay them a million or two a year to stay.

Well getting the first astronauts there might be easy and so the first hundred people but after that it gets harder. Especially people willing to do dirty, not respected labor. As its now in Western countries and why western countries import or rely on immigrants to do the dirty work.

2. If you're going to spend that much to get people there, you're going to train them extensively.

Train them for what? They just need to remove the weeds in a farm or pick the strawberries. Or they just need to spread the concrete for the new road with a handtool. They are not doing the higher level functions.

3. You don't want anyone on Mars who will murder others or leave both doors of the airlock open, so criminals seem a poor choice.

Well there is a chance for that but to be sure let all the criminals sleep in the same bunker and I can assure you they will control eachother.

This isn't a vast continent where anyone with a gun and an axe can clear a farm and make a living.

I don't understand this.

Euler · 2004-06-03 17:32:07

I think that isn't doesn't take a lot if training. As much training as it takes to work in a mine on Earth. Just a list of do's and don'ts. And basically you will use the same Earth machines on Mars for doing construction.

Construction workers on Earth do not have to wear space suits while they work, and they do not have to fix their machines when they break. They also do not need to build complacated strucures like airlocks, nuclear power plants, etc.

You would not send of the shelf Earth machiens to Mars. They would be too heavy, and would probably be unreliable in Martian conditions.

The cost of getting people to Mars is so high that you can only send people that are completly qualified, or that can pay for their own transport cost.

smurf975 · 2004-06-03 17:57:27

Construction workers on Earth do not have to wear space suits while they work, and they do not have to fix their machines when they break.

You are mistaken on Mars you should have just like on Earth specialized trades. You have people that use the machines, people that repeair, people that build them and people that design them. The inmates would be in the using and in some degree repairing class.

About the space suites. They are not like the space suites like they use on the space shuttle. So a better name would be Mars suites. And what’s so hard about wearing a mars suite? You got a leak? Then use duct tape. Basically just a document about what to in case of an emergency. Even mine workers and construction workers need to wear protective clothing and have some procedure in case of an emergency.

Airlocks and nuclear powerplants. Well they don't need to know how to build them. You will have specialized crews for them.

Let me give you an example relating to a documentary I saw recently. It was about the building of the Hoover dam and tunnel between England and France. Do you really think that all construction workers knew how to handle the heavy machinery and knew exactly what they were doing? Do you really think that construction workers working on the Hoover dam knew about every detail about the Hoover dam? I would think it's more like blow up these rocks, drill and pore cement, repeat the steps.

Again, you don't need workers that know everything like on earth. Or else why isn't a politician also doing a bypass on his wife, while doing the checkout at his local shop and after that cleaning his house?

You would not send of the shelf Earth machiens to Mars. They would be too heavy, and would probably be unreliable in Martian conditions.

A good point and you will need people to mine the resources for those machines. From what I understand you want the sciencetists to do this. Remember unlike in Red Mars (the book) there are no autonomous machines.

The cost of getting people to Mars is so high that you can only send people that are completly qualified, or that can pay for their own transport cost.

Well we are talking about colonizing Mars. If only scientists or the very rich can go to Mars as the cost are too high. It will not be a colony. It would be like now on the ISS. I'm talking about an era just before colonization. Were people are going to move to Mars in great masses or we (the governments) want them to.

The day that I see scientists and the filthy rich getting their hands dirty working on buildings, roads and in mines on Earth. Is the day your arguments make sense.

Euler · 2004-06-03 18:16:01

From what I understand you want the sciencetists to do this.

I want engineers and mechanics to do the work.

You are mistaken on Mars you should have just like on Earth specialized trades. You have people that use the machines, people that repeair, people that build them and people that design them.

Eventually that will happen. However, you need a critical mass of people before you can aford to specialize very much.

Let me give you an example relating to a documentary I saw recently. It was about the building of the Hoover dam and tunnel between England and France. Do you really think that all construction workers knew how to handle the heavy machinery and knew exactly what they were doing? Do you really think that construction workers working on the Hoover dam knew about every detail about the Hoover dam?

It did not cost over $100 million each to send workers to the Hoover dam construction area. With Mars, the costs may be that high, in which case it makes sense to send the best people that you can.

smurf975 · 2004-06-03 19:15:54

Absolutely! After setting up whatever "bombs" on which you've been working (in quotes because they wouldn't have to be explosives), as more colonists ("normal" colonists) start arriving, a very easy way to gain control over them would be threatening to activate them. "Do what I say or we all die."

We are talking about criminals here not the mob. Normal criminals are not that organized and the mob likes governments.

Do you really think that normal criminals are mass murderes?

On Mars, you have dangerously high levels of radiation, potentially toxic particulate matter in the soil and airborne dust, and even potential biological risks if indeed life does exist. Even getting there is hazardous.

A good point and exactly the reason why we will not see civilians anytime soon there to start building a serious colony.

And just how do you differentiate the two? What if I kill somebody just to be given a chance to go to Mars (of course I wouldn't tell anybody). Would that make me a psychopath? Or given that I personally think that killing is wrong and counterproductive to the advancement of humanity, it would be very easy for me to recognise that I was wrong in my crime.
How do you set up sufficient screening to determine that the person is a) not a psychopath (or even sociopath, but I digress...), and b) recognises that they were wrong in their crimes? And further, why are those the only two criteria?

Well if you think killing someone would get you a chance to Mars then you are wrong( how will you know that you are selected?). Basically I'm saying you will have problems sending civilians to Mars for the reasons you mentioned and the hard and dirty work needed. But its like the army you have a draft army and professional army. The draft being the inmates and professional army being people like you. If the professional army is big enough no need for the inmates.

About the screening how does the army screen? How does it know that private is not just about killing and cutting ears of x many enemies?

Do: Be mindful of tracking in fines from the airlocks
Don't: Destroy any potentially significant scientific findings

Yeah why not and have some images on the list. Like a man with a ripped mars suite and the second image of him reaching for his pocket and taping the hole.

smurf975 · 2004-06-03 19:30:19

I want engineers and mechanics to do the work.

Which is good and a lot better then sending a bunch of astronauts and sciencetists to do everything. However engineers and mechanics are a specialized trade and at the level of building and repearing the machines. Will they also mine the resources, take a shovel, get on there knees and lay a brick? And at the same time be an engineer/mechanic? Remember we don't have robots yet to do the dirty work.

Eventually that will happen. However, you need a critical mass of people before you can aford to specialize very much.

You are already doing this with the engineers and mechanics. Next thing you want farm engineers working on the food production. This may work in a small colony but they will not have time to build something for future colonist or do any kind of other work.

It did not cost over $100 million each to send workers to the Hoover dam construction area. With Mars, the costs may be that high, in which case it makes sense to send the best people that you can.

Well as long as it costs that much to send one human whatever his education to Mars, you will not see many humans on Mars either way. At that cost Mars is just a science outpost.
===

You did raise a lot of good points and I do agree with you if you are talking about a science outpost / settelement

RobertDyck · 2004-06-04 07:31:46

I haven't read the longer messages of this thread yet, but I have to agree with RobS; inmates are not worth the cost.

England created a penal colony in Australia because their previous justice system of execution didn't work. When criminals realized they committed a crime so severe that they would be killed if caught, they no longer worried about what crimes to commit. This caused increased crime. The more England tried to crack down on crime the more criminals felt they no longer had anything to loose. The penal colony in Australia was created as a severe punishment that would also dispose of criminals permanently from English soil, but wouldn't make perpetrators feel they had nothing to loose. Murder decreased after the penal colony was created.

Today modern Western countries rarely use the death penalty, so there is no need to create a penal colony. Furthermore, considering there are many people who would like to emigrate to Mars but can't afford it, would sending criminals to Mars be a treated as a reward?

Palomar · 2004-06-04 08:01:38

*I agree with Rob and RobertDyck on this issue. We already have methods of putting criminals away (prison or other).

All space programs and the nations which sponsor them like to celebrate their celestial travelers as heros and heroines -- people to look up to and admire. Crooks, rapists, murderers in their place? No thanks. And we have enough trouble getting public funding for sending upstanding, law-abiding people into space; I can hear taxpayers (of whatever nationality) screaming in outrage (rightly so, IMO) at having to foot the bill to send cons to Mars now...

I want the good guys and gals going into space...not thugs.

--Cindy

-*-

geo_flux · 2004-06-14 03:28:57

This thread was started in jest right???
Out of the 6 billion people on Earth do u really think our best candidates for Space exploration and colonisation are criminals? Considering the government won't let u train to be a military pilot if u have so much as a speeding ticket could anyone think they would send criminals off to start a space colony?
There must be thousands of trained, experienced, law abiding citizens in the world that would PAY to be the first to Mars no matter what the risk, living condition, pay, or work requirements are.
Please tell me this was all meant as a joke

smurf975 · 2004-06-14 04:50:23

Out of the 6 billion people on Earth do u really think our best candidates for Space exploration and colonisation are criminals?

I'm not talking about sending them there to do exploration and colonisation. Just hard physical labor in human unfriendly enverioments. Do you think you can find enough "regular" people in the USA, Europe, Russia or any other space faring country to that job? Well think again look at how hard it is to get people to work in Alaska, Oil drill platforms (islands excuse forgot the name for it), siberia or even Iraq. But then those are on Earth and you can alway quit on Mars you can't you are there for life.

Please tell me this was all meant as a joke

Well I'm not serious but I do like to defend the point but I think there are better options such as robots with a small force of engineers. The idea just popped up when thinking of some science fictions movies.

Grypd · 2004-06-15 17:23:44

It has to be noted that between the 17th and 19th centuries the cost of prisons was paid by the local authority(read town), And the crime rate was high and the cleanup rate low, Even then the prisons filled up quite quickly.
The legal code at the time used Draconian measures to reduce crime ie hanging a child for stealing a loaf of bread.
Incarceration resulted in overfilled prisons that simply could not cope
One way to solve the problem was to use hulks, these ex royal navy warships where filled with prisoners and became cheap to run reasonably escape proof prisons.

Why is this relevant
1) The prisoner in those times is NOT the type of prisoner we would keep in prison today, murders and serious theft etc resulted in immediate hanging. The prisoners in the hulks where petty criminals people we tend to use probation, small fines for nowadays.
2) The infrastructure to transport the prisoners was allready in place these hulks could simply have a few extra crew added to make themselves ready for sailing.
3) There was no public condemnation of transporting criminals it was considered the soft option.
4) Finally we have had proof in modern days that this way DOES not work. See the french bayeaux experiment ie devils rock,The film papillion. This way does not rehabillitate prisoners we are not the savages of the past we are a modern democratic society we do not dump our problems elsewhere.In the end who decides who gets dumped.

pootechie · 2004-06-16 12:23:55

The infrastructure to transport the prisoners was allready in place [...]

You hit the nail on the head with that one, Grypd.
The idea of setting up a penal colony on Mars is in no way compatible with the realities of either our technological or social/political/economic capabilities. Quite frankly, even if we could support a prison population on another planet, we would gain nothing by doing so; the capacity to do so precludes the need.
smurf975, I would close those sci-fi books you keep mentioning, if I were you, and take a look at the real world around you. Think about the nearly insurmountable technical challenges involved in putting even a single human on Mars, and also the real value of doing so, and then compare that to your strange vision of a quick and dirty "shake and bake" colony. I see a dark and distant future there...

atitarev · 2004-06-16 18:32:58

I both like and dislike the idea of sending inmates to Mars. I agree with the points that criminals back then are different from now. Mars won't be a nice place to live if you knew it was swamped with murderers. Don't worry, when Mars becomes a little populated there will be local criminals (inevitably) and prisons are part of any state, so the local criminals will do the hard work.

I also agree that there will be enough volunteers, so we don't need to worry about finding workers. The extremely hard work - digging, lifting should be done by robots or human controlled machines - excavators, cranes, etc.

Slightly off-topic. I would go to live on Mars if given a chance - I only have one concern - what if some idiot decides to violently take power on Mars and turn everyone into slaves or similar. Even volunteers that go to Mars could be crazy, you never know. The human factor bothers me more than the natural difficulties. The police should be created in the very first steps of the colonization.

Palomar · 2004-06-16 19:53:23

Slightly off-topic. I would go to live on Mars if given a chance - I only have one concern - what if some idiot decides to violently take power on Mars and turn everyone into slaves or similar. Even volunteers that go to Mars could be crazy, you never know. The human factor bothers me more than the natural difficulties.

*I've thought about that too.

--Cindy

MarsDog · 2004-06-16 20:00:44

It is going to be Domes on Mars, for the 40,000 years it takes plants to produce oxygen, for the whole atmosphere.
-
Better to choose people who get along in a domed environment; family history and other screening methods to keep out the criminals types. Not in my neighborhood will become not in my Dome.

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