After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

RobS · 2004-05-17 21:52:52

I'm impressed by how many organizations actually have called for settlement or colonization. But it seems to me that NASA and such need to sell scientific expeditions now and settlements later when the expeditions have worked. The technology has to start out for sending small numbers of people now and be expanded gradually. As space transportation technology improves it will gradually get cheaper, at least relative to the economy. If the initial transportation system is reusable, potentially it could save a lot of money longrun, because every two years another ship could be added and the fleet flying to Mars would get larger.

-- RobS

deagleninja · 2004-05-18 06:39:10

Exactly my points Robs. We begin with Mars as a exploration effort. History has shown how limited human attention span is (less than 3 years for the moon, less than 1 year with Iraq) so this must always be kept in mind when we go. A vigorous exploration prgram could maintain public interest in Mars for 3 years I believe, it it more interresting than the Moon. During those three years we visit ice caps, canyons and river beds searching for life, resources, and gathering information (what exactly is the air pressure at Mars' lowest point?).

Interest in Mars is going to fade with the general public while inversly it increases with industry, scientists and enthusiasts. I believe it paramount that we switch gears after three years and begin colonization modestly by inviting the iternational community to participate in the formation of our first permanent base. In the intervening three years our explorers have tested and hopefully perfected local resource utilization.

Switching gears at that moment should temporarily increase interest in Mars for about a year. This should be just long enough for our allies to get funding passed through their legislative bodies.

After that we can begin entertaining all kinds of possibilities. We will have gone too far to turn back and public support will mean very little to the continued existance of a Mars base. As the ISS has shown, it is nearly impossible to withdraw funding from even a very bad idea when you have gone so far.

This is the approach that must be taken for a successful permanent colony.

GCNRevenger · 2004-05-18 09:08:14

I believe it paramount that we switch gears after three years and begin colonization modestly by inviting the iternational community to participate in the formation of our first permanent base. In the intervening three years our explorers have tested and hopefully perfected local resource utilization.

Three years? That is a very tight window to go from boots-red to base building... only one or two launch windows to get the robo-dozers, domes, and quite a bit of hydrogen sent.

More importantly though, MarsDirect must be abandoned under this schema, since it obviously won't be able to haul the masses needed. More masses and perhaps a wider launch window with the aid of NTR would be needed for certain.

I also don't have that much faith in any "international cooperation" business... frankly, the ESA doesn't have much money, and I doubt their capacity to make a contribution large and important enough to bother with the trouble of integrating their hardware, or the cost of throwing away the nationalistic pride benefits.

deagleninja · 2004-05-18 11:27:47

GCNR, of coarse we will need to be talking to the ESA and/or RSA beforehand. When I mentioned a three year time frame I was talking about public not private relations. Should have clarified this, sorry.

I understand your lack of faith in international cooperation, but let's be patient, it's still in its infancy. The greatest thing 'coming out of' the ISS and Spirit/Opp - Mars Express uplinks is the testing of international cooperation. While the ESA lacks heavy lift capacity and manned flight experience, they are quite capable of building habitats for Mars. So they build em, we lift em cooperation could work quite well towards reducing our overall mission costs. It would allow NASA to focus better on the goals that Bush has set before them.

Also, my little proposal was assuming that we use an enhanced version of Mars Direct to put enough usable materials and equipment on the surface of Mars. This way our explorers can make science a primary mission instead of survival. If they find they have free time on their hands then they can dedicate it to creating a larger underground shelter.

With or without colonization, it still makes sense to use local resources as much as possible. For one thing, it makes the case for a permanent colony that much easier. Secondly, each pound of food or fuel that is produced on Mars means less material is needed from Earth, which means more equipment for our explorers.

GCNRevenger · 2004-05-18 11:53:03

The ESA quite capable of building habitats on Mars ey?
Really?
Why?
They haven't built anything manned other than their ISS & Shuttle laboratories. Ever. Nor has Russia much experience with building large pressurized volumes either except via the heavy lego-brick Mir style. The US already built Skylab, the US made half of the TransHab vessel, etc.

I don't think that MarsDirect is capable of colonization. It is severely limited by the Ares launcher, the chemical TMI stage, and having to lug along a fueled lander for each payload. The useful Mars launch window is probably not more than six months or so. Shuttle launched at its peak about eight times a year, I believe. So, you have about four flights every two years... that just isn't going to do, and it will cost a bundle too.

Stu · 2004-05-18 12:19:38

Your feelings are not suspect. However, colonization of Mars will not happen in our life time. It is doubtful it will ever happen. If that is indeed the case, how important is it to go to Mars right now?

Hey Clark,

Wow, sorry you’re feeling so down about things, but I know where you’re coming from; I can spot a disillusioned martian a mile off, I’ve been one myself, more than once, believe me! I’ve lost count of the number of crises of faith I’ve suffered whilst stood in front of audiences, lecturing about Mars, telling them all with a confident smile how we will fly to Mars “by 2020”, but thinking “Yeah, who are you kidding, none of us will live to see it at this rate…” to myself. It’s very depressing sometimes, I know.

But over the years - and today, thinking about it at work (a sign of how exciting my job is I guess!) - I’ve come to realise something that makes the frustration a little easier to bear, and it’s to do with the question you asked - why? Why would anyone in their right mind want to go to that wind-scoured, frozen, dusty, bone-dry, airless armpit-of-the-universe world?

That’s just it, you see – we’re not, “in our right minds” I mean. We all suffer from a form of madness which is, I think, embedded as deeply in our genes as are the genetic codes for the colour of our hair and the instructions to make our hearts beat. We won’t go to live on Mars because of science, or the quest for knowledge, or the advancement of technology. We’ll go because we’re that mammal sitting on a branch, bright, beady eyes flitting from side to side, drinking in the world around it. We’re that 2001 ape, hurling a bone up at the sky.

We’ll go to Mars, and live there, not because we find beauty on its rocks and dried seas, although some of us will, and do even now. We’ll go to live on Mars because we’re a restless, inquisitive, pain-in-the-butt species which simply can’t sit still, because no matter where we go, we’re not content to stay there.

Mankind is a species of fascinating and terrifying contrasts, as capable of creating heart-aching beauty as we are of creating unspeakable horrors. If they're out there now, aliens, studying us from space, are surely bewildered by our different sides. How, they must wonder, could a race be capable of creating such beautiful, inspiring things as a Beethoven symphony and a Turner painting, and also of murdering women and children with gas chambers or machetes. How, they must ask each other, can members of the same race view life so differently, and place such different degrees of importance to it? How can some strive to cure cancer, or keep premature babies alive, while others – breathing the same air – take delight in flying planes into skyscrapers, or blowing up buses full of children on their way to school? It makes no sense. But that’s Mankind for you.

Underneath “Mostly Harmless” in Earth’s entry in the HITCH-HIKER’S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, there must be a footnote adding “Native species makes no sense”.

And that’s exactly why we’ll go to Mars, and why we’ll live there, because it makes no sense. As you rightly said, Mars offers no rain, no warm winds, no fluffy white clouds. Instead it offers stale, recycled air, even staler water, permanently gritty eyes, skin turned sallow and pale from lack of sunlight… true, it will be a wonderland for Beakers - for the geologists who see beauty in rocks, for the biologists who see beauty in smears of slime glimpsed thru the eyepiece of a microscope - but for “normal” people? Mars will be a red-tinged version of Antarctica, only without the northern lights to marvel at and the penguins to laugh at.

And as someone once said, “Mars ain’t the kind of place to raise your kids… in fact it’s cold as hell.”

We will go, but, I fear, not by 2020, unless either a) an unmanned probe or rover finds primitive life there, or b) a private mission is mounted, cutting through the red tape that strangles NASA. I personally believe the Bush plan for space will wither and die as time passes – it’s too expensive, too dependant on long-term and continuing co-operation between political parties which find it hard to agree on the time of day, let alone approve the budget of a multi-billion dollar exploration initiative, but I hope I’m proved wrong. We’ll see. But regardless of the fate of the Bush plan, our efforts to explore Mars – with machines and men – will be affected by events here, on Earth.

We live in uncertain times; we’re never further than one CNN news flash away from an event which would change our world forever. They will happen, such events, and they’ll be good and bad. Before the first crew sets off for Mars, peace could come to the tinder-box of the Middle East, or it could ignite like a pile of magnesium powder. Before the first man or woman sets foot on the red planet we could see either millions of lives saved with the discovery of a cure for cancer, or we could witness millions of lives snuffed out like candle-flames with the detonation of a terrorist nuclear bomb in one of the great cities. Most likely, we’ll see both before the first boot-print is pressed into the martian regolith. But it WILL happen, of that I’m absolutely convinced. Why?

Because we always want to go beyond the next hill, over the next ocean, or up the next mountain. First, to simply enjoy the view, and to challenge and conquer our own limitations. But then the real reason – because we have to keep moving, or we die. Not physically, but inside. There’s a yearning in us that won’t be satisfied, and probably won’t ever be, not even when we stand on the bridge of a starship looking down on the Catherine wheel of the Milky Way. Then other galaxies will call to us.

The evidence for this is written in deep history, running through it like a vein of gold through a hillside. Life has always kept moving, always kept striving onwards. A billion years ago, Life peered out of the murky waters of the infant Earth at a beach, and felt itself drawn to it – and when it eventually scrabbled up onto the sharp sand Life saw hills and trees in the distance and felt drawn to them next. Millennia later, Life peered out from a cave, or burrow, saw the world burning furiously in the aftermath of the KT asteroid impact, and survived because of its stubbornness. Millennia later still, Life climbed down from the trees and learned how to make tools, and communicate, and walk, and when it learned how to walk it headed for the horizon – and hasn’t stopped walking since.

Our recent history has been just the same. When the Wright Brothers gazed up at birds wheeling and cawing in the sky above Kitty Hawk, they vowed they would fly higher, and faster. Only a handful of years later, Chuck Yaeger broke the sound barrier for the first time, shattering it like dropped crystal, but that wasn’t enough. Soon after he wrenched back the stick of a faster, sleeker jet and headed straight upwards, aiming for the sky, determined to fly higher than any non-astronaut pilot had ever done before. He kept going until the clouds were far behind him, and the stars began to appear through what was left of the atmosphere above him, knowing that space was where Mankind’s future lay. Soon after, cosmonauts and astronauts looked down on Earth regularly from orbit, fulfilling the dream which had haunted man for centuries – but still they weren’t content, and through the tiny windows of their Vostok, Mercury and Gemini capsules they looked longingly at the Moon as it rose up from behind the Earth and heard it calling to them, even though they knew it was an airless world of rock and dust, and the opposite of the beautiful blue and white world shining beneath them. A mere decade later, astronauts stood on the same Moon they had seen rising up from behind Earth, and STILL they weren’t content; turning their backs on the planet of their birth they surely looked at the ruddy spark of Mars, shining in the ebony-black sky, and knew where they must go next…

THAT’s why we’ll go to Mars, because it’s the Next Place We Can Go. It’s the next hill to walk over, the next stream to wade through, the next mountain to climb. Mars is just the next stepping stone in the line which runs across the great river of Time, and even though it’s slippery, and looks dangerous from the safety of the stone we’re presently balanced on, we’ll reach out for it because we can’t turn around and go back.

And we’ll put up with the recycled air, we’ll tolerate the recycled water, and we’ll endure the lack of rain, blue sky and fluffy white clouds because Mars isn’t the last stone. Many, many others stretch off into the distance. We’ll go to Mars, and learn to live there, because it will let us reach out for the next stone in the line. We’ll stand on Mars, turn our backs on Earth, and gaze longingly at Jupiter and its empire of icy moons. After reaching them, we’ll stand on the fractured ice plains of Europa and gaze longingly at Titan, shining like a golden spark beside butterscotch-hued Saturn. And after reaching Titan we’ll strike out for the icy wastelands of Miranda, Triton and Pluto, because each one offers us a view of the next hill and the next horizon. The journey will go on beyond that, too.

And the thing to remember is that that journey won’t “start” with us reaching Mars, because it started long ago. That journey won’t stop dead if we don’t go to Mars in our lifetimes, it will just pause, catch its breath. We’ll go when we’re ready, and not until.

But we will go. And I find that thought comforting when I’m standing in front of a room full of kids, wondering if I’ll live to see one of them waving at me from the edge of Valles Marineris, or if they won’t even see their own children doing it.

So please Clark, don’t give up, ok? It’s early days yet.

Sorry for the train-of-thought rant. I'll go have a lie-down now!

Stu

clark · 2004-05-18 12:45:44

Stu, your prose humbles me.

What more might I say that would convey the ideas I try to reach, yet fail to eloquently express so others will understand?

The real dividing line in my mind has nothing to do with exploration of space, but the colonization of it. Perhaps one day we will colonize the next world, and all the worlds beyond that, but it will not be any day that any here shall see. Our children will not see that day either.

Yet still we cry out for what you sing. I apologize, the melancholy has subsumed me, left me bare. Talk of life on a red planet leads me to wonder of life lived on the red planet.

Really and truly what it might be, what it could be. And I dream, and I dream of absence. Of lack, of the emptiness of what is given up for tin walls and the never-ending hum of air compressors. I can see the beauty, but I can see the thorns too.

And therein lies the challenge for the Mars Society, and any that suffers from this affliction of the heart, since the goal is the colonization of Mars itself. Not for any particular reason other than, "because". So I ask, "because, why?"

Because we can? Perhaps that is all it ever will be, or perhaps that is all it ever need be. Yet still I look for something more to arm myself, to find a way to mark a path for others who do not see as we do, so they may at least understand that draw Mars gifts us with.

I want it to be more than just a fanciful dream, which sometimes means I play the villain. Don't take it too seriously.

Now, if you're bored, write us another Mars story. I absolutely loved your "Field Trip."

Bill White · 2004-05-18 12:48:48

And therein lies the challenge for the Mars Society, and any that suffers from this affliction of the heart, since the goal is the colonization of Mars itself. Not for any particular reason other than, "because". So I ask, "because, why?"

Because if we do it, and succeed, we will become more than we are now. We are like trees, either grow, or die.

And I dream, and I dream of absence. Of lack, of the emptiness of what is given up for tin walls and the never-ending hum of air compressors. I can see the beauty, but I can see the thorns too.

Depression and boredom may be the most devastating conditions settlers face. They will need each other.

Ian Flint · 2004-05-18 13:09:06

I'm glad you never get offended Ian, it shows the level of your intellect.

So, is that a compliment or an insult? ???

clark · 2004-05-18 13:10:08

You're smart enough to figure it out. :laugh:

Just some friendly ribbing.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-18 13:26:15

Excellent posts, I fear I will now ruin the chain of eloquence with blunt meanderings.

Why would anyone want to live on a barren, airless frozen desert planet? I'll give you my reasons.

To live free. Yes, I know, prisoners in cans, how is that freedom?

Because they're cans of our choosing, in a place of our choosing. It's an opportunity to escape chafing controls and build a world that is better in the eyes of those building it. Would it be difficult, yes. Pleasant? Not generally. It would be grueling, often miserable and incredibly difficult to not only survive but build something lasting. Not a sane choice, but as Stu points out, we're a little cracked. Some of us more than others. Is enduring the hardships worth the rewards? For some. Why?

Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven. If given the choice between a beachfront mansion on a tropical island or a metal hab on Mars, I for one would take Mars. Digging an underground vault out of a new world is more rewarding. Ever have one of those grueling, miserable days that seem to drag on endlessly and yet at the end you feel strangely content, having accomplished something worthwhile? Imagine that everyday. For some it would be the height of misery, but for others... almost paradise. Almost, because each day improves slightly on the last.

Yes, we'd be forced to live in metal rooms and stone vaults, only occasionally venturing outside. That's fine, some of us like the dark. Cold, bah. To some, the chance to say "I helped build a world" at the end of the day is worth it.

Colonization will come when such people have the influence or capital to do it themselves. That day may be coming sooner than clark's admittedly justified pessimism would have us believe. Will any of us personally be going? I doubt it. But some of us may live to see that first one-way trip. If we first go to look around and don't throw away the chance.

To the Martians, remember: "Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich starker." The torch is yours, until you become soft and lazy and must pass it on to the next group of lunatics.

Stu · 2004-05-18 13:42:28

Now, if you're bored, write us another Mars story. I absolutely loved your "Field Trip."

It's nearly finished already... just hope it's not too long for Adrian to use! :;):

Send you an advance sneak-peek if you like...

clark · 2004-05-18 13:52:15

Stu, it's not nice to tease...

How about pretty please?

Stu · 2004-05-18 13:58:12

Yet still we cry out for what you sing. I apologize, the melancholy has subsumed me, left me bare. Talk of life on a red planet leads me to wonder of life lived on the red planet.
Really and truly what it might be, what it could be. And I dream, and I dream of absence. Of lack, of the emptiness of what is given up for tin walls and the never-ending hum of air compressors. I can see the beauty, but I can see the thorns too.

Life lived on Mars..?

Imagine... kids, in hand-painted spacesuits, bounding across the ruddy, rock-strewn plains, collecting meteorites, laughing as their parents warn them to "slow down! Slow down!"...

...lovers, standing hand in hand, staring at a plum-and-fire sunset, watching Earth flickering and flashing like a lantern above the gentle slopes of Olympus Mons...

...climbers, standing on the edge of mighty Marineris, peering over into the abyss, smiling, thinking "yeah, I can get down there..."

...explorers, driving through the maze-like canyons of Noctis Labyrinthus, laughing with delight at the sight of doaens of layers in the rock walls around them...

...newcomers from Earth, getting out of the shuttle, standing on Mars for the first time, legs wobbling as they stare up at the immense peach-coloured sky...

...a mother and father, waking their children before dawn to take them outside to show them Halley's Comet shining in the sky above the Columbia Hills, three quarters of a century after it was last seen by human beings...

These things, alas, are not for us. But the people who do see them will have our New Mars posts to read, and they'll envy us for being alive at such a golden time, when Spirit and Opportunity were roving across the red planet, discovering the things they take for granted.

Bill White · 2004-05-18 14:08:35

Clear nights? How vivid will the stars be at night? No light pollution. That will be very familiar with glass being the only difference between star gazing on Mars and on Earth.

= = =

Oh to feel the fine red dust of Mars, slipping through my naked hand...

Build a dome, pressurize and play in your sandbox. No big problem there.

Except for acids and alkalines and heavy metal dusts. . .

clark · 2004-05-18 14:15:34

Build a dome, pressurize and play in your sandbox. No big problem there.

It's not the same dude.

If it was, then any ol sandbox is a day at the beach. See how your kids react to that one. :laugh:

quasar777 · 2004-05-18 14:26:56

ya, martians will be far from emergency services. i like the concept in Green Mars about the stowaway Coyote using martain rocks as false teeth.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2004-05-17 21:52:52

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#52 2004-05-18 06:39:10

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#53 2004-05-18 09:08:14

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#54 2004-05-18 11:27:47

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#55 2004-05-18 11:53:03

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#56 2004-05-18 12:19:38

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#57 2004-05-18 12:45:44

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#58 2004-05-18 12:48:48

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#59 2004-05-18 13:09:06

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#60 2004-05-18 13:10:08

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#61 2004-05-18 13:26:15

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#62 2004-05-18 13:42:28

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#63 2004-05-18 13:52:15

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#64 2004-05-18 13:58:12

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#65 2004-05-18 14:08:35

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#66 2004-05-18 14:15:34

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

#67 2004-05-18 14:26:56

Re: After Mars - And why we should go indirect.

Board footer