O'Neill colonies/cylinders

Palomar · 2002-07-17 10:19:50

I moved this over from the "Unmanned Probes" folder, topic "Europa":

Quote (Aetius @ July 17 2002,04:29) "For settling planetary systems beyond Jupiter, I actually prefer O'Neill-type rotating habitat cylinders whose superstructures are made mostly out of water ice. ... Hybrid fission-fusion reactors which have ALREADY been designed could provide enough electricity to support billions in a level of comfort that would be envied by most in the world today...I love the idea of settling Mars. But the truth is, I like the idea of settling the Uranian system much more. As little as Terrans might care about what happens on Mars, they'd probably care even less about Uranus. 'Ariel Co-orbital Cylinder One' sounds nice to me."

*I found this courtesy of Google. Aetius, you're beginning to sell me on this idea. When I found and viewed the web page below, I immediately recognized this idea as being the Rama of Sir Arthur C. Clarke's _Rendezvous with Rama_. That novel is ::highly:: recommended by me, btw; I wish Stephen Spielberg would make a movie out of it.

http://www.l5news.org/oneillcylinder.htm

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-07-17 11:55:51

http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSe....s1.html

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-07-17 13:35:58

http://www.l5news.org/oneillcylinder.htm
--Cindy

*The article says that weather will be possible in the Cylinder...perhaps even to the point of colonists being able to vote on what weather should be! :0 In _Rendezvous with Rama_, Clarke included rain and clouds in the story, inside of Rama.

I've been trying to imagine raining clouds in this environment...rain falling in all directions at once from the clouds, due to the gravity inside a cylinder. Now that's a pretty funky mental picture...but interesting. I'd be curious to know how they could control humidity, isometric pressure, etc. And what if a freak tornado happened?

Any meterologists here, or persons with similar background? I'm especially curious about weather phenomena in this setting.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-07-17 22:36:52

*Another good web site relative to this topic:

http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/settle.htm

--Cindy

P.S.: Yes, I'm still 100% in support of manned missions to Mars, with the goal in mind of not only exploring it, but settling and eventually colonizing it.

As regards the *rest* of the solar system, however, I've come to agree with Byron, who said at the "Europa" discussion: "That's why I have the firm belief that Mars will be the only place in the Solar System (besides Earth, of course) where humans will be able to establish any kind of meaningful society..." -and- I've come to agree with Aetius' vision of using O'Neill settlements "out amongst the gas giants." Just thought I'd explain this.

Phobos · 2002-07-18 20:49:48

*Another good web site relative to this topic:
http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/settle.htm
--Cindy
P.S.: Yes, I'm still 100% in support of manned missions to Mars, with the goal in mind of not only exploring it, but settling and eventually colonizing it.
As regards the *rest* of the solar system, however, I've come to agree with Byron, who said at the "Europa" discussion: "That's why I have the firm belief that Mars will be the only place in the Solar System (besides Earth, of course) where humans will be able to establish any kind of meaningful society..." -and- I've come to agree with Aetius' vision of using O'Neill settlements "out amongst the gas giants." Just thought I'd explain this.

Even though I think Mars will for a very long time be the only place where colonization can be carried out on a mass scale, there's nothing wrong with a planet like Pluto. It and it's twin Charon probably have everything a colony would need except for a mass amount of sunlight, but the power could just be generated with nuclear reactors. Sure it's cold on Pluto also, but Mars isn't really much warmer! And theres probably plenty of objects in the Kuiper Belt that could be mined for just about anything within easy reach from Pluto.

Byron · 2002-07-19 06:05:15

Even though I think Mars will for a very long time be the only place where colonization can be carried out on a mass scale, there's nothing wrong with a planet like Pluto. It and it's twin Charon probably have everything a colony would need except for a mass amount of sunlight, but the power could just be generated with nuclear reactors. Sure it's cold on Pluto also, but Mars isn't really much warmer! And theres probably plenty of objects in the Kuiper Belt that could be mined for just about anything within easy reach from Pluto.

There's nothing wrong with Pluto?? How about the fact that it's billions of miles away? If we go to the trouble of going out that far, we might as well as keep going and head out to the stars themselves..LOL..

Pluto is cold enough to make Mars seem toasty by comparison, and it would be the land of perpetual nighttime, as the Sun is too far away to give more light than a bright star. I would find that very depressing to say the least...not to mention the much too-low gravity, extremely long communication times with Earth, etc....

B

Palomar · 2002-07-19 08:26:33

*In another colony concept [not O'Neill], the designer envisions aspects of colonization "stacked" on top of each other via levels. For instance, the top level will be for people, plants, housing, etc. Below that would be a level for crops...below that a level for animal husbandry. I actually don't like this lay-out, and prefer the O'Neill cylinder concept to it, mostly because in it all aspects of life in an artificial space colony are together and interactive. I don't like the "separation by levels" thing. Besides, the odor coming from an animal husbandry level of one of these "stacked levels" idea would be something to contend with. :0

Also, it'd probably be easier to distribute moisture more evenly in the O'Neill cylinder scenario than in the other. Of course, I could be wrong...just thinking out loud.

You know, I'm still wondering about clouds in an O'Neill cylinder. One of the plans shows the possibility of clouds forming at 3000 feet; however, the artist drew them to look like billowing clouds here on Earth, with flat undersides and cloud build-up on top. Since the cylinder is, well, a cylinder, and the gravity comes from the spinning of such a relatively small craft, wouldn't any clouds forming there be more cigar-shaped in appearance? Yeah, I've got a fascination for clouds, if anyone here must know...something of a meterology buff

--Cindy

Byron · 2002-07-19 14:50:57

*In another colony concept [not O'Neill], the designer envisions aspects of colonization "stacked" on top of each other via levels. For instance, the top level will be for people, plants, housing, etc. Below that would be a level for crops...below that a level for animal husbandry. I actually don't like this lay-out, and prefer the O'Neill cylinder concept to it, mostly because in it all aspects of life in an artificial space colony are together and interactive. I don't like the "separation by levels" thing. Besides, the odor coming from an animal husbandry level of one of these "stacked levels" idea would be something to contend with. :0
You know, I'm still wondering about clouds in an O'Neill cylinder. One of the plans shows the possibility of clouds forming at 3000 feet; however, the artist drew them to look like billowing clouds here on Earth, with flat undersides and cloud build-up on top. Since the cylinder is, well, a cylinder, and the gravity comes from the spinning of such a relatively small craft, wouldn't any clouds forming there be more cigar-shaped in appearance? Yeah, I've got a fascination for clouds, if anyone here must know...something of a meterology buff
--Cindy

I have to agree...placing different uses on different levels wouldn't be the most practical thing to do..besides, it'd be an engineering nightmare to have different-sized cylinders nested within each other.

As for the clouds, that's an interesting question... I'm somewhat of a wx buff myself... Clouds are formed by rising air and cooling off, causing moisture-laden air to condense into clouds. With the varying level of gravity throughout the width of the cylinder, might the clouds grow much taller then here on Earth, and be more vertical rather than horizontal? Also, I think the cloud bases would form much closer to the ground, let's say 500-1000 feet, and more likely than not, there would be a uniform cloud cover rather than the puffy cumulous clouds you see in those pretty drawings, due to the limited amount of air space..(I remember seeing those O'Neill drawings as a kid, and I was like, wow...that is soo cool..lol.)

B

Palomar · 2002-07-24 11:33:49

*Are O'Neill colonies/cylinders (or other artificial space colonies similar to) intended to be for multi-generational use? They could be, though I'm not sure such a prospect would be a good idea...

--Cindy

John Creighton · 2002-08-15 16:04:21

Would clouds form? Or would instead the axis of the cylinder contain a spinning cylinder of water. Maybe we could inject air bubbles into the cylinder of water to induce rain.

John Creighton · 2002-08-15 16:04:29

Would clouds form? Or would instead the axis of the cylinder contain a spinning cylinder of water. Maybe we could inject air bubbles into the cylinder of water to induce rain.

Palomar · 2002-08-16 13:09:40

Would clouds form? Or would instead the axis of the cylinder contain a spinning cylinder of water. Maybe we could inject air bubbles into the cylinder of water to induce rain.

*Arthur C. Clarke mentions weather-related phenomena, including clouds, in his novel _Rendezvous with Rama_, which [unbeknownst to me at the time of reading the novel a few years ago] was very much an O'Neill cylinder of sorts. I posted a web link some time back in this thread, which shows illustrations containing clouds, and a very brief discussion of clouds forming inside.

I think it'd be wiser to have controlled "weather" in such a setting, if possible. Of course, there might be unexpected surprises anyway. I'd also be curious about the water evaporation process and how they would avoid too much humidity in such a place. I don't like humidity!

--Cindy

Ronman · 2002-10-08 14:46:30

You folks might want to check out O'Neill's "Space Studies Institute" or SSI. There are discussions and papers available and artwork of the cylinders. Check out http://ssi.org/

John_Frazer · 2002-12-05 19:18:30

> Yes, I'm still 100% in support of manned missions to
Mars, with the goal in mind of not only exploring it, but
settling and eventually colonizing it

I agree, with some provisions (below)
(Working with the M.S. since 8/98)

> As regards the *rest* of the solar system, however, I've
come to agree with Byron, who said at the "Europa"
discussion: "That's why I have the firm belief that Mars will
be the only place in the Solar System (besides Earth, of
course) where humans will be able to establish any kind of
meaningful society..." -and- I've come to agree with Aetius'
vision of using O'Neill settlements "out amongst the gas
giants."

I take it further, that free-space colonies (colonies in space rather than on planets or bodies) are the long-term way to go, and the short term best way to livable conditions.

Mars is usually taken (quoting Dr.Z.) as the best place because it's got everything we need in one place.
So does a space colony. By the time the infrastructure exists in space to build a colony anywhere off-earth, space colonies are the best way. You'll need as much infrastructure if not more to build on a planet, and if you've got it, then the colony isn't too far away from anywhere (travel-wise, which is the important thing in space. Getting on to & off of a planet is hard).
NEAs can be used if building in the Earth-Moon system, and Phobos/Diemos can be used at Mars. When you've built one, you've got anything & everything you need to support it or build another.
A facet of a planet's having "everything in one place" is the fact that this place has a lot of gravity. Too much to be convenient for travel. At the same time, this probably isn't enough for us to have enough gravity to live there!
In a space colony, you've got full Earth G and full radiation shielding, for complete healthy living conditions. It's almost impossible to get this on another planet.

As to going to Mars ASAP, the moons are the key. Excellent resources (2 whole mountains of water and many other chemicals near at hand on the first landing -anywhere on the moons!), and better living conditions than you'll ever get on the planetary surface (and free unlimited solar energy. Lots better than hauling out and soft-landing a nuclear power station).
Send people out there to live sooner, since there'll be no need for them to return to Earth to rehabilitate after a tour of duty in Mars' low gravity.
The first manned Mars mission gets water and starts building the spinning habs for fully Earth-like conditions. Later missions build up the seed factory planted there, to pick the base up by its bootstraps to build up to being able to make a real colony, far sooner than terraforming (if that will ever be feasible).
Make money on the first and every mission by bringing back tanks of water & chemicals.

Check the FAQ at Mike Comb's excellent space colony site
http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/settle.htm
Look especially for the parts about the advantages of space colony living over planetary living.

As for colonies out around Pluto, again, don't go down to the planet, except for exploration and maybe resources. Live in space, with full gravity.
If the Sun's too dim, build a bigger mirror (it's only metal foil...)
colony at Earth/Moon orbits
colony past Pluto's orbit

edited comment: I checked the book "the High Frontier" about that colony out at Pluto. What the book talks about, is establishing a somewhat arbitrary "continental shelf" for our solar system. They stipulated that an average per-capita energy resource about like the modern US is desired, and then said that they'd limit the mass of the mirror to no more than 2X the habitat (at several wavelengths of light thickness, for metal foil).
The answer came out somewhere like 4 light-days -far beyond Pluto, beyond the heliopause, in interstellar space but well within the Sun's cometary cloud. (plenty of ices out there to live on)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-11 09:30:36

Check out This Amazing Fly-through of a Futuristic Space Habitat
https://www.universetoday.com/157995/ch … e-habitat/
Space settlement proponents and science fiction fans are likely familiar with the Stanford Torus, a gigantic donut-shaped spinning space habitat that could provide Earth-like gravity and climate for as many as 140,000 people.

Another topic
'Interstellar Ark'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6973

Art work concepts, Pictures of Mars sub forum
https://newmars.com/forums/viewforum.php?id=34

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-11 20:57:54

For Mars_B4_Moon re #15

First, thanks for bringing this topic from 2002 back into view!

And thanks for the (to me amazing) Blender animation you showed is, via the universetoday link!

(th)

Calliban · 2022-10-14 05:19:42

Elon Musk likened Jeff Bezos plan to build O'Neill colonies as being like 'trying to build America in the middle of the Atlantic'. However, the truth of the matter is that provided a suitably low cost source of materials is available, free space is a much easier environment for industry to work in than is any planetary surface. Unlimited and uninterupted solar energy that can be focused using foil-thin mirrors. No frictional forces to overcome. No air to contend with. Gravity that can be controlled by changing the speed of rotation. The low cost source of materials is the lunar surface. A spin launcher can deliver raw materials packages to L1 or L2 using an electric motor.

The sort of spacious colonies that O'Neill envisaged are probably a long way down the line. Initially, living spaces will need to be a lot more compact than a Bernal sphere, because of the high mass of shielding needed. The giant habitats that O'Neill foresaw are the end point of space industrialisation, rather than the beginning.

For early habitations, the habitats will be volumetric, essentially a single large building in space. Agriculural areas will be located outside of the main habitat structure. The hab will be divided into thousands of individual compartments. This link suggests that a fairly minimal 4-bedroom dwelling would be about 70m2. Assuming 2.5m high rooms (including floors) then a dwelling would require 175 cubic metres. Average occupancy would be 3 people. So assume 60m3 per person. Lets tripple than volume to account for common areas and green spaces. To house 10,000 workers, a habitat would have volume 1.8 million cubic metres. That amounts to a sphere 150m in diameter. The original Island One weighed 3 million tonnes, most of the mass being shielding. So a 150m colony would weigh 270,000 tonnes.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-14 05:56:14)

Void · 2022-10-14 17:31:27

I posted this on "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.", Post #554 today.

But I think it pertains to a possible liberty gained for the construction of such devices, so it may be important:

I stumbled on this today: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Gr … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:
Groundbreaking Research in Artificial Photosynthesis - Doing What Nature Couldn't
YouTube · 44,000+ views · 10/6/2022 · by Anton Petrov
It is the best explanation I have encountered.
A great surprise is the "Cyborg Bacteria" that apparently can create chemicals for this at an 80% efficiency.
It fits in with the notion that large portions of Mars might be terraformed, such as creating two polar oceans. Those would be very inefficient at creating life support. But what was described in Anton Petrov's article suggests that the utilization of light and water and CO2, is going to become incredibly efficient. This might suggest alternate notions of production in space and on the Earth. This would then change notions of spin gravity habitats in orbit, and habitations on planets.
-------
Here is an article about the Cyborg Bacteria: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40975719
Quote:
'Cyborg' bacteria deliver green fuel source from sunlight
Published
22 August 2017
Scientists have created bacteria covered in tiny semiconductors that generate a potential fuel source from sunlight, carbon dioxide and water.
The so-called "cyborg" bugs produce acetic acid, a chemical that can then be turned into fuel and plastic.
In lab experiments, the bacteria proved much more efficient at harvesting sunlight than plants.
Apparently, that is not such a new discovery, but the chemicals can drive artificial photosynthesis as well.
I am very impressed!
If they bring this all forward over time, then the total amount of transparency required to make the various products can be strongly reduced. So, presumably a lower cost for a much higher productivity in space and on Earth.
Done.

I think that properly if these devices are in orbit of a world, they could sort of be considered a form of Para Terra formation. Not so much different than a dome or underground facility on a world.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-14 17:33:46)

Void · 2022-10-15 12:02:17

I get attracted to the things that Calliban posts about, I hope I am not too much of an annoyance that way. Spin Launch then. How about for Mars?

https://fossbytes.com/spinlaunch-rocket … ve%20today.
Quote:

Forget About Launching Rockets, SpinLaunch Shoots Them Into Space
A simple-sounding yet promising approach.

Quote:

SpinLaunch is an American space technology firm that is testing an alternate method of launching rockets. Instead of using fuel, its Orbital Launch System uses electricity-powered kinetic force to shoot a re-usable projectile into space. As a consequence, it offers a sustainable alternative to what we have today.

But I am wondering if the tops of the shield volcano's might be a place to have a launch site?

I found this about Olympus Mons: https://spaceflight-simulator.fandom.co … ympus_Mons
Quote:

72 pascals
According to 2 sources
Olympus Mons is one of the tallest mountains of the solar system, standing at 21230 meters. At the top, the air pressure is just 72 pascals. The slope of Olympus Mons is 5 degrees.

A certain Dr. has schooled me that you do not want to land on those type peaks as for lack of air braking.

Query: "convert pascal to mbar" (Yes, I can be ignorant)

https://www.bing.com/search?q=convert+p … 676c75a6ad

3 Decimal places?? So, 0.72 Millibars, it seems.

So, at the top of the Mountains, (There are four I believe), Protection from Micrometeorites, Carbon, Oxygen from CO2 available, Nitrogen available, Argon available. Regolith available.

Air braking from Orbit not very good, Hydrogen resources, presumed to be meager.

Query: "How often do dust storms cover Olympus Mons?"

I think the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no???

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/space/o … story.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons

So, my guess is that solar energy is relatively good on top of the shield volcanos.
This is interesting:

Partially collapsed lava tubes are visible as chains of pit craters, and broad lava fans formed by lava emerging from intact, subsurface tubes are also common.[28] In places along the volcano's base, solidified lava flows can be seen spilling out into the surrounding plains, forming broad aprons, and burying the basal escarpment. Crater counts from high-resolution images taken by the Mars Express orbiter in 2004 indicate that lava flows on the northwestern flank of Olympus Mons range in age from 115 million years old (Mya) to only 2 Mya.[29] These ages are very recent in geological terms, suggesting that the mountain may still be volcanically active, though in a very quiescent and episodic fashion.[30]

I have wondered if these shield volcanoes have lava tubes deep inside of them that might have had subsequent lava flows may have entombed to some extent without collapsing them.

In case the reader hasn't figured it out, I am trying to puzzle out how to get lots of Mass to orbit of Mars from these mountains.

I see it as being sensible to partner these with settlements in the Marriner Rift Valley. It appears that those places may have what the Mountains appear to lack. Air braking, and Hydrogen.

We have seen this before: https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon
With a bit of Candor:

New analyses of FREND's data show high levels of hydrogen at a site called Candor Chaos, located near the heart of the massive canyon system dubbed Valles Marineris.
"We found a central part of Valles Marineris to be packed full of water — far more water than we expected," Alexey Malakhov, a senior scientist at the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences and a co-author of the new paper, said in an ESA statement(opens in new tab). "This is very much like Earth's permafrost regions, where water ice permanently persists under dry soil because of the constant low temperatures."

So, in my view, it might be possible that Ships like Starship could land in these air braked locations in the Valley, and pick up Hydrogen and hop it up to the tops of these Shield Volcano's???

Then to arrange to bring needed resources that cannot be had from Phobos and Deimos, up to Martian orbits from those shield Volcanos, using Metalox, Spin launch, and perhaps other mass driver methods.

So, the orbits of Mars may be a very good place to build the synthetic gravity and micro gravity devices.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-15 12:40:12)

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#1 2002-07-17 10:19:50

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#2 2002-07-17 11:55:51

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#3 2002-07-17 13:35:58

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#4 2002-07-17 22:36:52

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#5 2002-07-18 20:49:48

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#6 2002-07-19 06:05:15

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#7 2002-07-19 08:26:33

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#8 2002-07-19 14:50:57

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#9 2002-07-24 11:33:49

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#10 2002-08-15 16:04:21

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#11 2002-08-15 16:04:29

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#12 2002-08-16 13:09:40

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#13 2002-10-08 14:46:30

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#14 2002-12-05 19:18:30

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#15 2022-10-11 09:30:36

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#16 2022-10-11 20:57:54

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#17 2022-10-14 05:19:42

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#18 2022-10-14 17:31:27

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

#19 2022-10-15 12:02:17

Re: O'Neill colonies/cylinders

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