What if we lose #2 - Further thoughts

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-11 11:34:08

Whats with all this "our guys" stuff ?

Just easier to type than "Iraqis who are inclined to support the goals of the United States and the Coalition."

Bill White · 2004-05-11 11:45:30

Whats with all this "our guys" stuff ?
Just easier to type than "Iraqis who are inclined to support the goals of the United States and the Coalition."

With the prison abuse issue and the blue/white flag, how many of "our guys" will now be willing to stand up and be counted?

JammerG55 · 2004-05-11 11:50:23

True many are probably to embarsed to talk.

Bill White · 2004-05-11 11:53:20

True many are probably to embarsed to talk.

Yeah, and afraid that al Qaeda or Sadr will kill them and their families.

We need Iraqi allies that have real respect and power amongst the tribes. IMHO Sistani was perhaps our best bet.

But no, we went with the exile community instead.

Palomar · 2004-05-11 16:01:51

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … ches]Dubya losing "religious Right" support?

*I don't know if these folks (all or some) consider themselves as part of the "religious Right," but look what they're calling for.

Dubya's days are numbered.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-11 16:12:50

*I don't know if these folks (all or some) consider themselves as part of the "religious Right," but look what they're calling for.

1460, give or take would be my guess.

Mundaka · 2004-05-11 16:38:23

Bill White · 2004-05-11 16:59:59

Uh oh. . . Mundaka, I see nothing to argue with.

= = =

Edit to add: It appears we gave Chalabi all of Saddam's files, the better to blackmail potential rivals?

Alt2War · 2004-05-11 23:57:58

I've just seen the beheading video.

I am disturbed.

I fear for this world.

Alt2War · 2004-05-12 01:03:12

The man who did this, NBC reports the followingt story about:

//
But NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.
//

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/]ht … d/4431601/

//
“People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president’s policy of preemption against terrorists,” according to terrorism expert and former National Security Council member Roger Cressey.
//

Palomar · 2004-05-12 05:37:17

I've just seen the beheading video.
I am disturbed.
I fear for this world.

*Yes, I saw a portion of that video as well regarding Mr. Berg. ABC Nightly News. Peter Jennings said, "We're not going to show all of it." I'm like, "please don't." :-\ They stopped the video just as the terrorist who did the actual killing began getting this high-pitched screaming quality to his voice and out comes this huge blade. Poor Mr. Berg. It's a good thing that Hammill guy escaped last week.

Alt, you say "I fear for this world."

Yeah, I've feared for this world a long, long time.
Welcome to the club.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 06:49:33

Yes, truly disturbing.

We've grown too accustomed to our late-and-post-Cold War ease, I think. We've come to believe that history is something that happens to other people it neat little columns that fit in a book.

We're beginning to see it applies to us too.

Our enemies' native language is fear. We must again become fluent in it as well, even if we rarely apply it.

Palomar · 2004-05-12 07:19:09

We've grown too accustomed to our late-and-post-Cold War ease, I think. We've come to believe that history is something that happens to other people it neat little columns that fit in a book.

*No, Cobra; not for me, at least. I think I understand "cause and effect" all too well (regardless of the genesis of the cause).

By "fear" I also don't mean curling up in a little ball and hoping the problems will go away. I mean in the general sense of the seemingly endless vicious cycle of revenge which Middle Easterners in particular seem so enslaved to. Blink at them the wrong way and it's "Jihad!" But that doesn't mean, of course, that we avoid any conflict with them at all (Afghanistan was necessary, IMO).

Some wars are necessary; but some come about as a result of manipulation and sending the little people out to secure some big goodies for the elite.

I'm still wondering how one can best effectively deal with people who are beyond knee-jerk reflex of being absolutely vindictive "no matter what." I recall the 1972 Olympic games in Berlin...

Sometimes force is needed...but it's good to keep other less drastic options in mind as well. The Middle East is so screwed up...I dunno... ::sigh::

***
On a different note:

By the way, I'm curious: Do some folks here equate gentleness with weakness, i.e. as -synonymous-? I don't. Just like I don't equate strength with cruelty, i.e. as synonymous.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Sean Hannity (King of the Plastic Dolls) was railing the other day about "the liberal media" making a fuss about the prison abuse scandal photos. So I guess only "liberals" are concerned about the integrity of the Geneva Convention :laugh:

Bill White · 2004-05-12 07:48:36

Be careful when you wrestle with monsters, lest you thereby become one. For, if you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you.
-- Friedrich Nietsche

= = =

David Brooks said this yesterday in the NY Times, just in other words. He wrote other stuff as well.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 08:03:26

Quote (Cobra Commander @ May 12 2004, 08:49)
We've grown too accustomed to our late-and-post-Cold War ease, I think. We've come to believe that history is something that happens to other people it neat little columns that fit in a book.
*No, Cobra; not for me, at least. I think I understand "cause and effect" all too well (regardless of the genesis of the cause).

Not exactly what I was referring to. We, as in the "West" but America in particular have become quite comfortable in our corners of the world. It's not so much a lack of "cause and effect" understanding as a disconnect from it.

We tend to wake up when something bad happens to us, carry on like it's the worst event in the history of man, then calm down and forget about it until the next world-shattering cataclysm that, well, isn't.

This beheading is a horrible act, but it's not a direct result of the Iraqi prison abuses nor is it particularly unusual behavior for the people we're fighting. This is par for the course. Far worse things have and will happen. The best way to prevent such things is to kill the people who would do them.

By the way, I'm curious: Do some folks here equate gentleness with weakness, i.e. as -synonymous-? I don't. Just like I don't equate strength with cruelty, i.e. as synonymous.

Not at all. But I do think that gentleness toward those who would kill us is, if not weakness, poor judgement. Cruelty toward the powerless is cowardly, counter to strength.

Not that I group you in the "poor judgement" category, just to be clear. Whether the Iraq war was right or not is open for debate with some good reasons on both sides. A lot of stupid ones too, but some good ones. The problem is that many in this country equate the use of force with wrong. "Violence begets violence" and all that excrement.

Sometimes violence begets peace, order, security. Sometimes gentleness will get your throat slit.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 08:16:12

Be careful when you wrestle with monsters, lest you thereby become one. For, if you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you.
-- Friedrich Nietsche

Unfortunately it may be necessary to have our own monsters if we are to survive.

Yet not all monsters are the same, and survival may be at stake before it's over.

Bill White · 2004-05-12 08:28:23

Be careful when you wrestle with monsters, lest you thereby become one. For, if you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you.
-- Friedrich Nietsche
Unfortunately it may be necessary to have our own monsters if we are to survive.
Yet not all monsters are the same, and survival may be at stake before it's over.

Agreed. David Brooks said as much yesterday.

However, to survive fighting evil without becoming evil requires genuine introspection and humility. The ability to walk away from power and not be seduced by it.

And, as GWB once told reporters in Crawford he does sometimes "look in the mirror, but only when his hair needs combing. . . "

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 08:33:45

However, to survive fighting evil without becoming evil requires genuine introspection and humility. The ability to walk away from power and not be seduced by it.
And, as GWB once told reporters in Crawford he does sometimes "look in the mirror, but only when his hair needs combing. . . "

When this war is finally won George W. Bush will have long since passed from the stage, barring unforeseen states of "National Emergency" of course.

My greatest concern is that when it's over we will have an even more important fight at home.

Palomar · 2004-05-12 08:55:17

*No, Cobra; not for me, at least. I think I understand "cause and effect" all too well (regardless of the genesis of the cause).

Not exactly what I was referring to. We, as in the "West" but America in particular have become quite comfortable in our corners of the world. It's not so much a lack of "cause and effect" understanding as a disconnect from it.

We tend to wake up when something bad happens to us, carry on like it's the worst event in the history of man, then calm down and forget about it until the next world-shattering cataclysm that, well, isn't.

This beheading is a horrible act, but it's not a direct result of the Iraqi prison abuses nor is it particularly unusual behavior for the people we're fighting. This is par for the course. Far worse things have and will happen. The best way to prevent such things is to kill the people who would do them.

By the way, I'm curious: Do some folks here equate gentleness with weakness, i.e. as -synonymous-? I don't. Just like I don't equate strength with cruelty, i.e. as synonymous.

Not at all. But I do think that gentleness toward those who would kill us is, if not weakness, poor judgement. Cruelty toward the powerless is cowardly, counter to strength.

Not that I group you in the "poor judgement" category, just to be clear. Whether the Iraq war was right or not is open for debate with some good reasons on both sides. A lot of stupid ones too, but some good ones. The problem is that many in this country equate the use of force with wrong. "Violence begets violence" and all that excrement.

Sometimes violence begets peace, order, security. Sometimes gentleness will get your throat slit.

*Thanks for clarifying, Cobra.

I agree with your post, overall.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … dc]Baghdad civilians outraged, dismayed by Berg's murder

*How to say this? Considering all the negative press coming from "over there," I'm relieved to know this many Baghdad civilians are disturbed and upset by the retaliation on Berg. I know not all Muslims are wild-eyed murdering fanatics...but I've seen too much rejoicing when even an innocent is butchered in revenge.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 09:08:08

*How to say this? Considering all the negative press coming from "over there," I'm relieved to know this many Baghdad civilians are disturbed and upset by the retaliation on Berg. I know not all Muslims are wild-eyed murdering fanatics...but I've seen too much rejoicing when even an innocent is butchered in revenge.

It seems to me that the vast majority of Iraqis are not in anyone's 'camp' but just want the war over so they can get back to their lives. They'll turn on whoever they perceive as causing more of the trouble. Today it isn't us.

Bill White · 2004-05-12 09:10:35

Cindy, your link talks about a "cycle of violence" and a despair that they can never escape. We must defeat radical Islam, brutally, yet we cannot hate while we do it. (A very tall order, I know, but its the only way.)

If we are to win, we must prove http://www.quivis.com/mideast02.html]stuff like this is wrong and the jury is not America, the jury is the rest of the world.

= = =

With the Arab press spreading ideas like those found in the above link, photos of an American woman leading a naked Iraqi by a dog leash is the worst propaganda imaginable.

clark · 2004-05-12 10:14:25

Bush and company are a liability now. We need to get rid of them. However you want to feel about the prisoner abuse, take a step back and wonder how it is perceived elsewhere. To put it simply, with Bush and Company, we will have a harder time securing friends and allies to come to our aid and help us out with Iraq. Staying the course with Bush will cost other leaders in their domestic standings. That's why most are now pushing back and waiting it out till after the election.

If Bush is reelected then the arab world will believe that the American people do not care about them or their issues. Our allies will believe that they have more to lose than gain by staying the course. Everyone knows that America "has to" stay in Iraq- so what better way to pin down the world super power than with a good ol fashioned sand pit. Maintaing a strong presence in Iraq weakens our ability to respond or influence situations in other critical areas, it forces us to play ball. The EU knows this, Russia knows this, and China is waiting.

Bush for 4 more years means that we have troops in for 4 more years, at the least. Bush can't cut and run on his own little war. It also means that it will be largely an American affair, so us Americans end up paying the price in terms of US GI's and tax money.

No number of generals or enlisted scape goats will solve this. The blame falls on the elected officals who are responsible for the militaries conduct. This may be unrealistic, but this is how everyone else is seeing it.

Mundaka · 2004-05-12 10:28:40

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-12 10:32:11

If Bush is reelected then the arab world will believe that the American people do not care about them or their issues. Our allies will believe that they have more to lose than gain by staying the course.

The "arab world" won't come around if Bush is out. Hardly any of them love us (with a few exceptions in Kuwait) and those that hate us have done so long before Bush came along and will long after he's gone.

But they know he's serious. They're hoping for a reprieve, for a return to the half-assed measures of the '90's.

Dumping the Bush Administration won't help win the war, it won't win over our enemies, and it won't persuade others to help. It may make certain elements within this country feel better and it will encourage our enemies.

The blame falls on the elected officals who are responsible for the militaries conduct. This may be unrealistic, but this is how everyone else is seeing it.

How some are seeing it, largely those who opposed it in the first place. And only for the moment. This isn't something we can effectively judge halfway through, if we stay the course posterity will vindicate us. If we waver or quit, we become the proverbial paper tiger.

clark · 2004-05-12 10:40:42

Who is talking about quitting? Kerry supports the actions, and he will continue the same agenda in Iraq, which is one of ostenibably setting them on a path to democracy and returning our troops as soon as possible.

We don't need Bush to stay the course. If Bush is reelected, it will be harder to get anybody to come to our aid. With Kerry, at least the EU and NATO can be encouraged to join in Iraq- this will never happen with Bush due to the polarity of views related to the individuals.

The foreigners like America, they hate Bush. We can tap intot hat if we get rid of Bush. If we don't, then everyone will shut the door, say "good luck for the next 4 years", and wait till Bush is gone for good.

That's what's happening now. First we had WMD- well that didn't pan out. Next we had control of the situation, but then we start begging anyone with a toy gun to come and help in Iraq. Then we had "for human rights", and now we are violating human rights. What exactly does any other nation get by helping America right now? Except for Isreal, nothing but headaches.

We can change this situation by changing leaders. America is the same, but someone else is at the helm, in front of the camera's. We're in a war, so let's make a war time decision, sack our leader, and put someone else in to finish the job.

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Re: What if we lose #2 - Further thoughts

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