The Saturn V

ANTIcarrot. · 2004-05-03 17:50:29

I can't help but feel that if we'd spent on Saturn-Vs what we've spent on the Shuttle we'd have gotten to mars by now.

And some of the follow-on designs (like the plug-nozzel stages & SSTOs) were truely impressive.

ANTICarrot.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-05-04 06:08:12

Hi ANTIcarrot!
Welcome to New Mars - a little late, I guess, since this is your 6th post! But anyway, glad to have you aboard.

It's difficult to argue with you that continuous development of the Saturn V would have reaped huge advances in sheer brute power to LEO by now. Who knows where we'd be today if we'd kept plugging away instead of wasting so much time and money on the shuttle white elephant? ???

You don't happen to have any good links to the Saturn V updates you mentioned in your last post, do you? You know, the plug nozzles etc.

I know that, towards the end of the program, they were pushing out the envelope as far as performance was concerned. I believe they were contemplating all sorts of performance upgrades and ever more ambitious mass-to-the-Lunar-surface improvements.
I seem to remember them talking about a 'rocket-hopper', by which an astronaut could move easily from site to site. This would enhance the exploratory impact of each mission by a considerable margin but, of course, the cancellation of the program put paid to that!

Such a tragedy!

REB · 2004-05-04 09:22:57

The Saturn V had a future. They were using it for more than Apollo. They had done all those docking test with the Russians. And then there was Skylab. I guess the shuttle had more promise, at the time. It looked futuristic compared to an old rocket.

Too bad the Saturns didn’t live on (kind of like the X-plane program. Had that continued, perhaps we would have planes flying into space by now). I have heard that to bring them back (With modern updates of course) it would take about five to ten years. We would almost have to start from scratch.

SBird · 2004-05-04 10:19:08

I assume that you're talking about the X-15 specifically, the X-plane program is still very much alive. The scramjet program that NASA ran a few weeks ago was the X-43 or something like that.

The X-15 was interesting but really pushed the limits of technology at the time. Interestingly, a lot of the X-prize stuff is closer to the X-15 than standard rockets. Things like the NASP are descendants of the X-15 but none have worked successfully. The challenges of trying to get orbital speed through the atmosphere a re not something that are lightly approached.

REB · 2004-05-04 11:17:13

Yes, the X-15 was on it way to being a space plane.

As much as I love the Saturn V, I can't help but wonder if it had something to do with the demise of the X-15.

I love the part of "The Right Stuff" where Chuck Yeager takes the X-15 straight up.

Palomar · 2004-05-04 15:27:02

*Here's something interesting. Just a few days before the launch of Apollo 11 and with the Saturn V all fattened up with fuel, two guys (Artie Falbush and John Logalbo) fixed LEM fuel lines with soldering tools.

Would anyone here volunteer for that duty?

As for reviving Saturn V for Mars mission, just add an extra small stage for the hab and supplies? Or was the size of the CM and LEM together comparable to the size of a Mars Direct hab?

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-05-04 16:16:23

REB, I loved that too... *Best footage ever* If you get a chance to see it on a big screen, do so, it's awesome... You're really there...

But... It was a Starfighter he rode 'up' in the end of the film...

It's been more than 15 years since i saw it on big screen, still have it burned in my mental image... Like it was yesterday.

Try to place yourself into that period... mid sixties... Hot-rod test pilot, you see this absolutely futuristic plane (it wasn't camouflage painted, so it was all shiny metal...)
You walk around it... wow, tiny wings! Big engine! I wonder how this baby behaves when i push it real hard... Heck, I'm Sound-Barrier-Bustin' Chuck Yeager, let's give it a try...

The rest is classic movie at its best...

(And it showed the then very hot discussion: "plane or rocket approach to space?" without words... for he saw the stars, for a moment...)

(Google is my best friend! : ) "One of the planes he tested in 1963 was the NF-104, an F-104 with a rocket over the tailpipe, an airplane which theoretically could climb to over 120,000 feet. Yeager made the first three flights of the NF-104. On the fourth, he planned to exceed the magic 100,000 foot level. He cut in the rocket boosters at 60,000 feet and it roared upwards. He gets up to 104,000 feet before trouble set in. The NF-104's nose wouldn't go down. It went into a flat spin and tumbled down uncontrollably. At 21,000 feet, Yeager desperately popped the tail parachute rig, which briefly righted the attitude of the plane. But the nose promptly rose back up and the NF-104 began spinning again. It was hopeless. At 7,000 feet Yeager ejected. He got tangled up with his seat and leftover rocket fuel, which burnt him horribly. He hit the ground in great pain and his face blackened and burned, but standing upright with his chute rolled up and his helmet in his arm when the rescue helicopter arrived"

In the film they used a german F-104 Starfighter, not the special one...

Rxke · 2004-05-04 16:20:38

Heh, yes, Cindy, those were the day, when mane were made of steel, and rockets made of even more steel!

BTW, i enjoy this topic, immensely, initially i thought it was a bit 'decadently' wallowing in a past that was grander than this present, but... The Saturn V deserves praise!

It's epic.

Rxke · 2004-05-04 16:25:42

As for reviving Saturn V for Mars mission, just add an extra small stage for the hab and supplies? Or was the size of the CM and LEM together comparable to the size of a Mars Direct hab?

Dunno...

But i once read somewhere the control-electronics of S-V took up *a lot* of room, size of a small house, and those same electronics now fit in a suitcase, so.... that would give some room to spare, today. (dunno if that's actually true, but i can believe it)

(I think i read that in an intervie with Elon Musk, of SpaceX, where he discussed progress in rocketry...)

Rxke · 2004-05-04 17:16:46

Ummm... Did some searching, overly optimistic, i'm afraid:

"I don't have good numbers handy for the late-model (J-mission) Saturn V third stages, but knocking a little bit off the early ones to allow for incremental improvements, the dry mass of the third stage was about 32klb, and the instrument unit on top of it weighed about 4klb. Being wildly optimistic, say we cut the dry mass of the stage in half, and since the IU was basically electronics, shrink it to effectively zero (it had some structure as well, but if we don't need that to support the electronics, we can just put the payload directly on top of the S-IVB, which we're probably redesigning fairly drastically anyway). That would add about 20klb to the translunar payload. As flown, translunar payload was in the vicinity of 100klb. So we're talking about a substantial improvement,
but not a truly radical one"

Not citing Elon Musk, BTW, but Henry Spencer: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Et … plain]link

REB · 2004-05-05 06:01:11

Doh!. You are right. The X-15 was earlier in the film. It has been a while since I saw it.

I have often thought that Yeager should have road in a Saturn V. I bet he would have loved it.

The Right Stuff is a great movie. I need to get the DVD, widescreen. I also need to get the Apollo 13 DVD. (I like widescreen. You get to see the whole movie, and they are not as jerky as the TV formatted ones, where they pan back and forth between who ever is talking)

ANTIcarrot. · 2004-05-06 08:04:45

Actually, the Shuttle Transportation System compares quire favorably with the Saturn V in one respect: mass into LEO. The first problem with the STS is that 100 tons of that is shuttle. The second problem is that the time taken between flights to recycle the shuttle pushes down launch rates and pushes launch costs up.

An HLLV based upon shuttle hardware (putting the engines under the ET and payload on top for instance) could change this ratio; putting up to 120 tons into orbit. And you could probably mass produce such a HLLV and send it to the pad often enough to halve it's launch cost.

Hmm. Four times the cargo for half the cost? No, NASA would never go for it.

ANTIcarrot.

Palomar · 2004-05-10 14:52:43

In a different thread SBird wrote: "NASA made a big deal about how much temperature and energy the reentry shields would have to withstand. It turns out that all the Apollo reentry shield was made out of was a honecomb grid filled with the equivalent to high grade bathroom caulk."

*What were the bells of the F-1 engines insulated with? It's noticeable on still photos, but of course especially on video: There is no "solid cut" of the end of the engine bells against the flame; rather, the flame looks fluid and "jittery" (hard to describe) -- seeming to "eat away" at the edges of the bells themselves, overwhelming them. It's just jagged, jittering, fluid-flame edges all around and then bell cones above -- the actual bottoms of the bells aren't visible. It actually looks like an optical illusion, shimmering so madly like heat waves on an asphalt road on a hot summer day. Anyway, it's amazing the bells didn't outright MELT.

So I'm curious what they were insulated with (if anything)...and if not, how in tarnation did they keep the bells from melting?

Also, I've noted the video feed on Apollos 15, 16, and 17 Saturn V's (my _Mighty Saturns: Saturn V_ DVD set) are of a bit poorer quality and not as many-angled shots; almost as if NASA weren't allowed more bragging rights.

--Cindy

SBird · 2004-05-10 15:51:35

A fairly common tactic to reduce engine bell heating is to run the fuel through small pipes in the bell. I know this is done on the Shuttle main engines and most likely on the F-1's. This also preheats the fuel before it enters the combustion chamber.

REB · 2004-05-18 06:11:13

Here is a great Apollo site;

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/imag … ndsite.htm

REB · 2004-06-16 06:16:36

From; http://www.khou.com/]http://www.khou.com/

Saving the Saturn V rocket

05:48 PM CDT on Tuesday, June 15, 2004

By Nancy Holland / 11 News

HOUSTON – The bones of devoured animals littered the giant rocket that could have taken Americans to the moon. Now, a mission has been launched to save the Saturn V from decay.

The huge rocket has sat in an open pasture near the Johnson Space Center since 1977. The 363-foot launch vehicle has been an impressive and familiar reminder of Houston’s spacefaring past. Longhorns that shared the pasture often seemed to pose in front of the Saturn V, offering up yet another uniquely Texas image. But the Texas sun that baked the rocket and the constant humidity had no respect for history. The rocket was rapidly deteriorating. The risk of losing it forever was very real.

NASA
The Saturn 5 has become a familiar part of the JSC landscape.
The rocket that became so much a part of the landscape could have gone to space. Its predecessors took the first humans to the moon on Apollo 8. This one might have flown astronauts to the moon on Apollo 18 if that mission, and all subsequent moon missions, had not been cancelled.

In all, three Saturn V rockets still survive. Only the one in front of the Johnson Space Center is actually made up entirely of rocket stages intended for flight. It has been called a national treasure. In fact, a grant from Save America’s Treasures of the National Park Service and the National Trust for Historic Preservation could provide $1.25 million for restoration if matching money is raised. Already workers have begun the painstaking task of figuring out exactly what is wrong and the equally difficult task of figuring out how to correct it.

Allan Needell of the Smithsonian Institution’s Air and Space Museum is in Houston this week to see the Saturn V. Some of what he already knows may sound appalling to those who love and revere America’s space program. He points out the rocket was never meant to lie on its side. While it could take the tremendous stresses of a liftoff on a moon bound mission, it was never designed for years of lying horizontally. Rainwater has gotten in and accumulated. Owls live in the interior.

“Owls bring field mice and eat them in there.” Needell describes what workers have already found including the bones of small rodents and plenty of waste from birds. “There’s pigeon nests near the command module.” He says.

It seems a sad fate for such a piece of history. Yet, Needell points out there have been efforts over the years to protect it. It has been painted. Some of it, he says, is actually in remarkably good shape. But much of what has been done has not been what he calls “historic preservation”. That calls for more than just making the rocket look good.

Now with a serious restoration project underway, workers have taken off a number of panels and pieces and sent them for testing.

“We’ve sent samples of various things, mold, mildew, bacteria and plants.” Says Needell. Once people at the lab find out precisely what is growing on and in the Saturn V restorers will figure out the best way to get rid of it.

Those interested in preserving the rocket also want to undo all the artificial things that have been done to touch up damage and as much as possible make it the way it was in the days it could have blasted off from the earth.

“Imagine being able to see the Mayflower.” There is an edge of excitement in Needell’s voice. “You have movies. You can watch faded movies. We have photographs. We will know what a Saturn V looked like but there’s nothing like this.” That is why he thinks saving the rocket is so much more than just preserving some pieces of metal. He believes the rest of America feels the same way.

“The American people believe there is nothing like ‘the real thing.’”

He says up to ten million people a year come to the Air and Space Museum and he knows firsthand they don’t want to see a replica. He compares the Saturn V to the Wright brothers’ airplane that holds such a place of honor in the museum. Its wings have had to be restored but people know they are seeing the actual plane.

“There’s nothing like being in the presence of the real article,” Needell says. “The Saturn V represents the scale of the effort of putting men on the moon.

It is a serious and difficult job to restore the aging spacecraft. It is also a costly one. Locally, efforts to raise money for the restoration continue. But those who believe in that restoration believe if ever there was a place where such efforts should succeed this is it; a city that likes to boast that “Houston” was the first word from the moon must surely want to preserve the vehicle that made it possible.

Palomar · 2004-06-16 06:40:13

*Here comes some of my money!
From space.com's "Astronotes" (updated and archived daily in continuous-flow pattern, so will paste and copy here):
"March 2
Save the Saturn V Campaign in Progress
The only remaining Saturn V rocket made completely from stages and spacecraft intended to launch Americans to Earth orbit and the Moon, is the focus of a major restoration effort to begin March 8 in Houston, Texas.
The 363-foot tall booster, which has lain on its side near the entrance to NASA's Johnson Space Center since 1977, has deteoriated due to exposure to the Houston area's regular high humidity, high ozone concentrations and chemical pollution. Small animals have found shelter inside and are responsible for acidic debris and damage.
Half of the $2.5 million required for preservation of the rocket is available from a dollar-for-dollar matching grant from the Save America's Treasures Program. More than $590,000 in matching funds has already been provided or pledged through the fundraising efforts of an independent committee in Houston. An additional $540,000 is required to complete the preservation work.
Public donations toward the restoration of the Houston Saturn V can be mailed to: National Air and Space Museum, Saturn V Fund, P.O. Box 23197, Washington, DC 20026. Checks should be made payable to: "National Air and Space Museum Saturn V".
Assuming full funding, the restoration of the Saturn V will be completed this year. Access to the Saturn V will remain free to visitors and the rocket will remain a stop along the tram tours run by neighboring attraction Space Center Houston.
For more details on the restoration effort and ways to help, visit collectSPACE.com"
::EDIT::
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-0 … ml]Another link to "Save the Saturn" (with pics, etc.)
--Cindy

*Hey REB! Nice to see they're still fanning the flames (pardon the pun) regarding restoration. I've already sent a contribution, months ago. Might do so again.

Thanks for the reminder.

collectspace.com (in the link in my quote box) also has a discussion forum and this campaign has been part of the talk.

I haven't seen (lately) the amount of $ collected so far and how much more is needed.

--Cindy

REB · 2004-06-16 06:46:58

I am glad to see them do this.

Living about 25 miles from this rocket, I have seen it many times. I am always filled with awe, but sadness every time I see this rocket lying on its side.

Awe over the power it represents, its history, and what its brothers accomplished.

Sadness over seeing such a powerful machine with so much potential lying on its side in pieces. It could have been Apollo 18. It could have gone to the Moon.

Palomar · 2004-06-26 10:58:43

*Has anyone else seen the recent TV commercials featuring the Saturn V?

In one (vehicle commercial), a man is guiding a silver moon rover towards a door in the bottom of a Saturn V. It slips and falls, crashing; he sees an SUV or similar vehicle in the parking lot. That gets loaded up into the Saturn V which then lifts off...and he realizes he'd left the keys to the vehicle in his pocket.

Another is a communications company (SBE?). Shows people in 3 different U.S. locations checking "systems" -- including an Oriental woman by a rocket engine -- then a Saturn V lifting off.

It's great, but I can't help wondering about the sudden use of Saturn V images in particular.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-12-22 11:25:15

*Here comes some of my money!
From space.com's "Astronotes" (updated and archived daily in continuous-flow pattern, so will paste and copy here):
"March 2
Save the Saturn V Campaign in Progress
The only remaining Saturn V rocket made completely from stages and spacecraft intended to launch Americans to Earth orbit and the Moon, is the focus of a major restoration effort to begin March 8 in Houston, Texas.
The 363-foot tall booster, which has lain on its side near the entrance to NASA's Johnson Space Center since 1977, has deteoriated due to exposure to the Houston area's regular high humidity, high ozone concentrations and chemical pollution. Small animals have found shelter inside and are responsible for acidic debris and damage.
Half of the $2.5 million required for preservation of the rocket is available from a dollar-for-dollar matching grant from the Save America's Treasures Program. More than $590,000 in matching funds has already been provided or pledged through the fundraising efforts of an independent committee in Houston. An additional $540,000 is required to complete the preservation work.
Public donations toward the restoration of the Houston Saturn V can be mailed to: National Air and Space Museum, Saturn V Fund, P.O. Box 23197, Washington, DC 20026. Checks should be made payable to: "National Air and Space Museum Saturn V".
Assuming full funding, the restoration of the Saturn V will be completed this year. Access to the Saturn V will remain free to visitors and the rocket will remain a stop along the tram tours run by neighboring attraction Space Center Houston.
For more details on the restoration effort and ways to help, visit collectSPACE.com"
::EDIT::
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-0 … ml]Another link to "Save the Saturn" (with pics, etc.)
--Cindy

*Here's an update on how much money has been contributed so far: http://www.spacecamp.com/saturnv/html.htm]$2,000,256.27

They've got it down to the very cent, LOL. :up: Still half a million to raise.

Check out the License Plate portion. I had a tough time getting it downloaded, and will have to click into the remaining inner links later. Here in NM we're not required to have a frontal license plate, so I'd be glad to get a Saturn V license plate -- even if simply "generic," i.e. no State mentioned, just the Saturn V and etc.

Well, that's some good holiday news.

--Cindy

John_Frazer · 2005-04-13 03:41:29

I think it was in "Mining the Sky", Lewis reported that the last 3 Saturns were halted partway through construction. They were turned into museum pieces, the tools and dies were sold off as scrap, and one set of diagrams was sent to the national archives. He said he looked for it, but it couldn't be found. I've since heard that it's turned up, but I haven't seen anything concrete.

I'm partway through building the Estes model rocket of the Saturn-V. I've had to put it away in storage, but it's gorgeous -even more so since it's flyable! It uses their biggest engine,, and goes up 100 feet!
I want one of the old plastic model kits of it too.

Here's something interesting:

Mystery Object Orbits Earth
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002 … object.htm
Another possibility is that J002E3 is an S-IVB from Apollo 12. Unlike Apollo 14, Apollo 12's S-IVB did not crash into the Moon. The crew jettisoned it on Nov. 15, 1969, when it was nearly out of fuel. Once the astronauts were safely away, ground controllers ignited the S-IVB's engine. They meant to send the 60-ft-long tank into a Sun-centered orbit, but something went wrong; the burn lasted too long. Instead of circling the Sun, the S-IVB entered a barely-stable orbit around the Earth and Moon "much like the current orbit of J002E3,"
...
Whatever J002E3 is, it's taking a fantastic journey through the solar system--and it's not done yet. Chodas' calculations indicate that J002E3 will leave Earth again in June 2003 to resume its orbit around the Sun. "Thirty years from now," he notes, "it might come back again."

Case Gets Stronger that 'New Moon' Apollo Part
11 October 2002
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/s … 21011.html

Palomar · 2005-04-13 06:36:58

I'm partway through building the Estes model rocket of the Saturn-V. I've had to put it away in storage, but it's gorgeous -even more so since it's flyable! It uses their biggest engine,, and goes up 100 feet!
I want one of the old plastic model kits of it too.

*Hi. Wow, that Estes model sounds nice. I didn't know there was a --flyable-- model of the Saturn V out there (is not a hobby of mine, but I have looked at some web sites and etc with hobby rockets for sale, etc.). My husband bought me a Saturn V and LEM model kit for my birthday last year, assembled it, etc.

As for the "mystery object" articles...yes, have read those. :laugh:

-*-

http://www.spacecamp.com/saturnv/]An update on funds to restore Houston Saturn V

Only halfway there? Looks like the amount raised hasn't budged much since I last checked it a few months ago. :-\

And http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-030104a.html]this page continually updates.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-11-02 06:42:56

Von Braun team reunites to lend their signatures

*...to help the "Save the Saturn V" fund (see most recent posts above).

--Cindy

REB · 2005-11-02 13:56:22

http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-030104a.html

Saving Houston's Saturn. Progress being made.

publiusr · 2005-11-02 16:48:48

That's good.

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#101 2004-05-03 17:50:29

Re: The Saturn V

#102 2004-05-04 06:08:12

Re: The Saturn V

#103 2004-05-04 09:22:57

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#104 2004-05-04 10:19:08

Re: The Saturn V

#105 2004-05-04 11:17:13

Re: The Saturn V

#106 2004-05-04 15:27:02

Re: The Saturn V

#107 2004-05-04 16:16:23

Re: The Saturn V

#108 2004-05-04 16:20:38

Re: The Saturn V

#109 2004-05-04 16:25:42

Re: The Saturn V

#110 2004-05-04 17:16:46

Re: The Saturn V

#111 2004-05-05 06:01:11

Re: The Saturn V

#112 2004-05-06 08:04:45

Re: The Saturn V

#113 2004-05-10 14:52:43

Re: The Saturn V

#114 2004-05-10 15:51:35

Re: The Saturn V

#115 2004-05-18 06:11:13

Re: The Saturn V

#116 2004-06-16 06:16:36

Re: The Saturn V

#117 2004-06-16 06:40:13

Re: The Saturn V

#118 2004-06-16 06:46:58

Re: The Saturn V

#119 2004-06-26 10:58:43

Re: The Saturn V

#120 2004-12-22 11:25:15

Re: The Saturn V

#121 2005-04-13 03:41:29

Re: The Saturn V

#122 2005-04-13 06:36:58

Re: The Saturn V

#123 2005-11-02 06:42:56

Re: The Saturn V

#124 2005-11-02 13:56:22

Re: The Saturn V

#125 2005-11-02 16:48:48

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