von Braun's "The Mars Project"

Palomar · 2004-04-27 11:21:26

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ … 1806]Click

*Yes, I know the book is now a bit "dated." However, I'm curious if anyone here has read it. Also, is it supertechnical? Some of the reviewers mention lots of mathematics and graphs. I'm wondering how much of it is a straightforward plan for getting to Mars ala the 1950s, and how much is technical jargon.

One of the reviewers drops a reference to Zubrin and "The Case for Mars."

***
Also, was von Braun a member of the Nazi party? I've read various reviews on the 'net about his life (VERY brief bios). Some seem to portray him as a willing Nazi; others as an unwilling pawn who was caught in difficult circumstances, was more interested in the science of rocketry than nationalism, and perhaps even wanted to escape to the Allies (he was imprisoned by the Gestapo, apparently because he wasn't sympathetic to the Nazi cause). A bit confusing at this point. I'll be reading more about him...

Comments? On the man himself, or the book above?

--Cindy

bolbuyk · 2004-04-27 13:19:00

What I know about von Braun, he was a technical in the first place and a Nazi in the second. Keep in mind much people were Nazi, without very explicitly have choosen for it. That he has designed rockets for destroying London is undeniable. If he had the chance, he would have made rockets that could hit New York!

However, I think he was a soldier who fought for his country, however with wrong ideologies. He was also some time stopped by Hitler, who didn't think hios rockets were very good weapons, but later a friend of von Braun made it possible to continue the project. When the Russians came near from the East, he desided to go to the Americans and work for them. He was taken to America, at first there was some reserveations, but when Vanguard failed (nov or dec 1957) he was given the task to make Juno to send Explorer 1 in orbit.

About his Mars-projects: His old project was very ambitious (70 man and 12 ships) but later he made a plan with the NERVA-engines, 12 men and 2 ships.

I have one book of him: He writes very clear, even for non-technicians.

Mark Friedenbach · 2004-04-27 14:48:33

Uh not sure where that info came from bolbuyk, but von Braun was not a Nazi. Wernher von Braun was an naive apolitical dreamer. If he was a member of the party (which i'm pretty sure he wasn't), it was only likely because much of his work was overseen by the SS. He built rockets for the german army only because rocket research was outlawed by the Nazis except under military circumstances, he certainly didn't have any Nazi ideology. It should be noted that the V-2 was designed with the intent of attacking military targets. It wasn't until 1944 when the SS took control of the project that work was done to turn it into a terror weapon (von Braun was imprisoned for criticizing it's use when the first V-2 fell on London).

The questions about his past come from the fact that slave labor was used to build the V-2's at Nordhausen. It's very likely that von Braun knew this (he did oversee most of the project, although the SS handled that end), but he didn't do anything dramatic to stop it. At the same time though, what could he have done? To speak out would have been suicide in the most literal sense, especially so near the end of the war.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-27 16:42:40

My understanding is that von Braun was not a Nazi in the ideologic sense, but I'd have to look up whether he was a member of the Nazi Party, as Party membership was important for certain lines of work.

However, he was made an honorary member of the SS. He did have an SS uniform. This was not uncommon, many prominent figures in various war-related industries were given honorary SS commissions.

This doesn't necessarily mean he was a member of the Nazi Party, however. Again, I'll have to check on that. His brief time in the hands of the GeStaPo indicates he was ideologically shaky at best.

At any rate, he wanted to build rockets for space travel, but the powers-that-be had other ideas and ways of persuading people to comply. By most accounts I've read he seems to have hoped and expected that after the wa he'd be able to follow the dream of manned space flight. He was right, just not in quite the way he might have expected.

As for his mars mission profile, I've never read the book but I'm reasonably familiar with it. If I'm not mistaken the issue of re-entry heat hadn't been solved. All those paintings of winged rockets with shiny, bare metal surfaces seem quaint but somehow still modern. While impractical, there's just something attractive about twelve shiny-hulled pointy ships heading off to a new world.

I can't resist closing with a line from "the Right Stuff,"

"Our Germans are better than their Germans."

Bill White · 2004-04-27 21:27:56

I send them up. Where they come down is not my department.

dicktice · 2004-04-28 08:35:48

Also: He remarked regarding the V2 something like, "It was a success, except that it landed on the wrong planet." (Anyone know the exact quote?)

Palomar · 2004-04-28 09:09:15

Also: He remarked regarding the V2 something like, "It was a success, except that it landed on the wrong planet." (Anyone know the exact quote?)

*Hi dicktice. I don't know, but http://www.houstonspacesociety.org/nazi.html]this group certainly "has it in" for von Braun. Apparently NASA = Nazis (these people seem a tad bit paranoid to me...medication refills needed?).

I wonder if they're aware that Nazis and Commies didn't like each other (all the hammer and sickles on their site) and weren't the same thing?

There's this little gem: "This same paradigm continues in large measure to be the preferred approach for NASA projects. Missions are conceived, executed, and completed."

Um, YEAH...missions -are- supposed to be planned and carried out (duh). How else will anything get done?

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-04-30 12:14:39

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ … 1806]Click
*Yes, I know the book is now a bit "dated." However, I'm curious if anyone here has read it. Also, is it supertechnical? Some of the reviewers mention lots of mathematics and graphs. I'm wondering how much of it is a straightforward plan for getting to Mars ala the 1950s, and how much is technical jargon.
One of the reviewers drops a reference to Zubrin and "The Case for Mars."

*I remembered a while later that amazon.com allows a "look inside the book" for most/all of their books, including this one. Unfortunately the "look" feature doesn't work for _The Mars Project_.

I tried finding the book at some local bookstores (including a huge used/rare bookstore)...no luck. I'd like to see -how- the book looks prior to buying, i.e. if it's mostly math formulae and graphs, charts, etc., or mostly straight-forward plans written for laypeople.

Anyway, while browsing in the used/rare bookstore, I noticed what seems to be a very short attention span on the parts of we humans. Have you heard of an Italian lady named Oriana Fallaci? No? Neither had I. She immigrated to the U.S. decades ago; I'm not sure if she stayed. Anyway, she wrote a novel about the Space Age, exploration plans, etc., entitled _If the Sun Dies_, published in 1966. I would have picked it up, but I'm not reading much fiction these days. I also saw a book published in 1986 entitled _The Greening of Mars_ by Allaby and Lovelock. I don't know when KSR began writing his books, so I wonder if _The Greening of Mars_ predates Robinson's ideas.

Anyway, interesting how there are some "old/new" ideas out there...

--Cindy

Byron · 2004-04-30 12:26:59

I also saw a book published in 1986 entitled _The Greening of Mars_ by Allaby and Lovelock. I don't know when KSR began writing his books, so I wonder if _The Greening of Mars_ predates Robinson's ideas.
Anyway, interesting how there are some "old/new" ideas out there...
--Cindy

Interesting. I might have to hunt for that one on E-bay or at the local used bookstore around here...as that was when KSR began writing "Green Mars," a novella that he later expanded into the famous three-part trilogy. I wouldn't be the least be surprised to see the roots of the "Mars" trilogy in that book, but I'd have to read it to be sure...

B

Palomar · 2004-04-30 14:37:38

I also saw a book published in 1986 entitled _The Greening of Mars_ by Allaby and Lovelock. I don't know when KSR began writing his books, so I wonder if _The Greening of Mars_ predates Robinson's ideas.
Anyway, interesting how there are some "old/new" ideas out there...
--Cindy
Interesting. I might have to hunt for that one on E-bay or at the local used bookstore around here...as that was when KSR began writing "Green Mars," a novella that he later expanded into the famous three-part trilogy. I wouldn't be the least be surprised to see the roots of the "Mars" trilogy in that book, but I'd have to read it to be sure...
B

*Hi Byron. If you do get a chance to read _The Greening of Mars_ and see parallels, please do chime back in regarding same (I initiated this thread -- which I started -- going off-topic anyway, so obviously I don't mind; anyway, we're still discussing *books*...). I might slip back down to that store and buy that book myself...(as it's non-fiction). But of course I haven't read KSR yet (heretical, I know...ha ha), so of course I can't make any comparisons.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-04-30 14:54:01

'The greening of Mars' sounds familiar... Was it by James Lovelock of "Gaia- theory" fame?

(EDIT: stupid question, Google showed me it was indeed James L. )

KSR's RGB Mars trilogy was nothing 'new,' the idea of terraforming Mars is decades old, so...

Palomar · 2004-04-30 20:11:41

I also saw a book published in 1986 entitled _The Greening of Mars_ by Allaby and Lovelock. I don't know when KSR began writing his books, so I wonder if _The Greening of Mars_ predates Robinson's ideas.

*Whoops...copyright date for _The Greening of Mars_ is 1984. Is that 20 years ago already?! Time...tsk, tsk.
The book is subtitled "an adventurous prospectus -- based on the real science and technology we now possess (1984) -- how Mars can be made habitable by man." Well, who knows...this book might make a Green out of me.

Anyway, I also found a very interesting book entitled _Chariots for Apollo: The Untold Story behind the Race to the Moon_. Discusses the vehicles, rocketry, etc. For the "layperson." Von Braun is mentioned throughout, of course. Looks interesting.

By the way, I also saw on the bookshelf that Michael Collins (astronaut/Apollo 11) published a book in 1990 entitled _Mission to Mars_. I didn't have time to browse through it extensively, so I'm not sure if it's a plan for staying there a while or "flags and footprints."

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-05-17 13:54:20

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ … 1806]Click
*Yes, I know the book is now a bit "dated." However, I'm curious if anyone here has read it. Also, is it supertechnical? Some of the reviewers mention lots of mathematics and graphs. I'm wondering how much of it is a straightforward plan for getting to Mars ala the 1950s, and how much is technical jargon.
One of the reviewers drops a reference to Zubrin and "The Case for Mars."

*Well...it's as I feared. Amazon.com's feature of "look inside" didn't work for this book and I couldn't find a copy (new or used) in town, -before- purchasing.

The book isn't written for the "general reader," just as I anticipated. :-\ Lots and lots of mathematical formulae, complicated graphs, etc.

There's a Foreward by former NASA chief Thomas O. Paine and a bit of biography about von Braun. I'll get out of the book what I can.

My sister looked through the book and wondered if I couldn't simply memorize the 3-page long multi-column Greek alphabet combined with numbers thingies and figure more of it out. Well, it's nice to have one's intellect overestimated for a change. :laugh:

Guess I'd better get that biography about von Braun instead.

--Cindy

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#1 2004-04-27 11:21:26

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#2 2004-04-27 13:19:00

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#3 2004-04-27 14:48:33

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#4 2004-04-27 16:42:40

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#5 2004-04-27 21:27:56

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#6 2004-04-28 08:35:48

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#7 2004-04-28 09:09:15

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#8 2004-04-30 12:14:39

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#9 2004-04-30 12:26:59

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#10 2004-04-30 14:37:38

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#11 2004-04-30 14:54:01

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#12 2004-04-30 20:11:41

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

#13 2004-05-17 13:54:20

Re: von Braun's "The Mars Project"

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