The Saturn V

dicktice · 2004-04-20 08:32:35

Cindy wrote: "I really am in awe of the minds which can devise such things. ::sigh::"
All I have to say is: It takes one to know one.
Hypergolics are pretty nasty fuels--healthwise--but you are a breath of fresh air, and not only because its coming-on springtime up here in Nova Scotia. Full marks, for your on-going perspicacitatious observations (I think I got that right).

Palomar · 2004-04-20 13:58:32

Shaun:

Hi Cindy!
From memory, I believe hypergolic means that no ignition system is required for the fuel and oxidant. When you pump them simultaneously into the combustion chamber, they spontaneously react. This not only simplifies things, it makes things safer too because ignition is guaranteed - a very handy thing when your life depends on it!

*Interesting...thanks for the explanation.

Shaun:

Sorry I don't remember details of the escape tower which sat atop the Command Module. I do remember it was supposed to accelerate the astronauts away from the launch site in the event that the Saturn V decided to expend all its energy at once ... KABOOM!

*I didn't know it was precisely for -that- very reason, but certainly makes sense. :-\ ::edit:: On 2nd thought (duh), I do remember seeing, in the film "Apollo 13," the escape tower being jettisoned immediately after orbit was established and prior to the 3rd stage's J-2 engine being re-fired. Hopefully I'm recalling that correctly.

Shaun:

I don't recall how far into the launch sequence that tower would still be safe or effective to use. I imagine it would depend on the speed through the atmosphere; there being some point beyond which shock wave ahead of the capsule would make an abort impracticable(?)

*My DVD collection of _The Mighty Saturns: Saturn V_ is on its way -- *today*, according to the Amazon.com UPS tracker; I should have it in hand by late this afternoon. Lots of material to go through, but if specific details are given regarding this, I'll definitely jot them down. I'm glad my husband is looking forward to the DVDs as well (no battle for the remote control, ha ha). And thanks for your input.

dicktice:

Cindy wrote: "I really am in awe of the minds which can devise such things. ::sigh::"
All I have to say is: It takes one to know one.

*Hi dicktice. Well, now you made me blush. I wish your compliment (thank you) were true, but I'm afraid I'm only smart enough to -appreciate- this stuff. I couldn't have invented any of it.

dicktice:

Hyperbolics are pretty nasty fuels--healthwise--but you are a breath of fresh air, and not only because its coming-on springtime up here in Nova Scotia.

*Sweet of you...

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-04-20 14:22:09

I meant "hypergolics," not "hyperbolics," which can be rather nasty too, if you don't have their tables of functions (a before scientific calculators observation). Appreciation is what inventors live for, by the way.

Palomar · 2004-04-20 19:44:33

...my husband and I watched the movie "Apollo 13" the other evening (I'm also currently reading 2 books about that mission). I know the launch in the movie was computer simulation (for the most part?), but I have a question:
Shortly after the initial blast of fire from the engines (very close camera angle), it seems the flames and smoke which roared outward suddenly *reversed* -- as if being sucked back toward the engines. Is that "artistic license" in the movie or did the flames and smoke really behave that way? I've seen a lot of footage of authentic launches of the actual missions, but I don't really recall seeing THAT.
Comments?
--Cindy

*My DVD collection came in about 2 hours ago, and yes...I've been watching.

Immediately after ignition, intense orange billowing flames which swiftly turn to black smoke erupt *around* the base of Stage 1. Then -- as quickly as those flames appear -- they are gone, as if sucked under the launch pad, and the bright-orange flames continue to shoot out -only- from under the launch pad.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-04-20 19:58:21

Shaun:
Sorry I don't remember details of the escape tower which sat atop the Command Module. I do remember it was supposed to accelerate the astronauts away from the launch site in the event that the Saturn V decided to expend all its energy at once ... KABOOM!
*I didn't know it was precisely for -that- very reason, but certainly makes sense. :-\ ::edit:: On 2nd thought (duh), I do remember seeing, in the film "Apollo 13," the escape tower being jettisoned immediately after orbit was established and prior to the 3rd stage's J-2 engine being re-fired. Hopefully I'm recalling that correctly.

*Prior to the launch of Apollo 4 (the first Saturn V launch), the tip of the emergency escape tower was "capped." The camera was focused on it, but no vocals (explanations) at that point, and I thought perhaps there was no emergency escape tower for Apollo 4. Suddenly the cap "flies" off to the side, jerked away by a tether. Then a Mission Control vocal feed accompanied the clip (some are mute, others have vocal with them). The escape tower wasn't discussed by the controller (expected), but he did identify it and said (while counting down to launch in 3 minutes, 44 seconds) that they'd just retracted the cue-ball (or Q-ball?) cover protecting the angle of the tachmeter (? ... tachymeter?) atop the "launch escape tower" (his words).

I've been watching actual *launch* footage; will watch the 43-minute documentary of the conception, design, development, testing of the Saturn V, etc., either later this evening or tomorrow.

***
By the way, saw a camera shot from under the launch pad, focused on the five F-1 engines. They look like ominous shadowed bells...wisps of smoke; then a sinister deep orange glow stirs in one of them; a few seconds later flames belch out from two of them; heavy smoke descends like a curtain of foam from a third; then they're all blazing like mad...I'd definitely call that "Hell's Bells." Amazing the camera survived...amazing the cones around the engines survived!
:-\ Absolutely stunning.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-04-21 07:08:25

*The DVD (3-set) total run time for _The Mighty Saturns: Saturn V_ is 9 hours. I watched approximately 2 hours yesterday. The first disc is flawed, seriously (the documentary portion). The scenes "fragment" into shimmering patches and boxes. My husband and I figured out quickly to hit "forward x2" or "back x2" very briefly; the picture smooths out to normal and then hit "play" quickly...it'll continue playing normally for 5 minutes or so before goofing up again. A nuisance, but at least it's "fixable." (No returns on opened merchandise, so I'll deal with it).

Saw engineers and NASA staff riding on the uppermost swing arm of the LUT, as one of the Saturn V's was being rolled out of the assembly building. Wow! What a view...in all respects. I didn't know anyone was allowed to ride *with* the Saturn V during rollout, on the LUT! Enviable. Camera-up angle shots from the ground as well as camera-down angle shots. Cars and vans driving alongside the crawler (which went along at 1 mph), and people walking beside it as well (look like ants).

The countdown clock for the original video has, of course, digital numbers. That was so "oooooooo!" back then...so high tech looking. Of course, regular clocks and watches all had sweeping hands at the time, IIRC; I don't remember digital clocks for home use until 1974 or 1975. Am so used to it now of course, but I'm glad I did remember how "sci-fi" it looked coming from NASA, back then.

I've seen separation of stages 1 and 2 from the air previously, on other video(camera inside vehicle); always spectacular. A new view for me: One of the launches showed separation of stage 1 -from the ground-; either a camera with a telescoping lens on it or a telescope with a camera attached (don't know which) filming it. Stage 1 falls gracefully away and immediately stage 2's engines fire, looking like a big icy-blue-colored glowing 4-leaf clover (the background sky at that point is not blue, of course -- it's pitch black). The remainder of the vehicle above that is a small whitish smudge growing smaller and fainter. That particular scene touched me. It was as though the years rolled back and I was a little girl again, watching these marvels. The icy-blue-colored glow of stage 2's rockets against the black reminded me of how I thought of the Saturn V then: It could take us anywhere we wanted to go, do anything we wanted it to do (I was just a little kid!). There was no limit to what we could accomplish; this marvel would only get more frequent and better...moon bases, then beyond. But it was a WONDERFUL nostalgic memory flash.

Too bad it's 2004 and we're still -here-.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-04-23 19:35:07

*Well, I suppose some folks are getting tired of me yapping about the Saturn V, but I do have a few more comments. Have been watching more of my DVD collection tonight; watched the camera angle shots of Apollo 11. In one shot (they have audio as well, but not of anything from Mission Control) you can hear crickets chirping in the foreground. In another, bird calls. One bird is winging its way the hell OUT of there...

Okay, whatever is flammable in the LUT catches fire. That's no big surprise, and as in the other Apollo missions it produces huge drapes of cob-web-like tangles of smoke issuing from the LUT; it looks like cheap Halloween decorative "spider webs," to be really honest.

One of the liftoff shots is focused squarely on the F-1 engines, in extreme slow motion. At that point the camera is overwhelmed by dazzling WHITE HOT flame. The borders of the flame is yellow, but the wider middle section is pure white. My god. It nearly hurts the eyes to look at it.

I've only noticed this with Apollo 11: Maybe 1.25 minutes into takeoff, it seems the 2nd Stage's J-2 engines have fired and separation is commencing with Stage 1. But it's not, of course (too soon). Somehow there's this huge arc, all around the Saturn, of mildly flaming smoke (more smoke than flame, and no it doesn't seem to be the regular exhaust thing going on). It cascades down, all around, and then a **faint blue ring of fire** pops up out of nowhere and begins glowing around the top of the 3rd Stage, where the Instrument Unit is. I've not seen that on any of the other Saturn liftoffs. Wild. Here's a graph (posted previously), to illustrate where the Instrument Unit is:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/imag … htm]Stages & Etc again

Maybe it was the atmosphere that day; I notice a lot more smoke from that liftoff (Apollo 11) versus any other so far. ::shrugs::

---

Now I have a question: On liftoff, and for quite some time, the white-yellow F-1 engine flames pour straightly downward; the stream is no wider than Stage 1 itself. However, maybe 45 seconds prior to separation, the flames begin fanning out wider and wider...it begins to look like a big orange umbrella. Is this because Stage 1 is running out of fuel? Or because of the thinner atmosphere?

--Cindy

SBird · 2004-04-24 01:21:41

Now you've got me wanting to pick these DVD's up! I think you should be getting a kickback from the publisher. :;):

Re: the digital artifacts. How old is your DVD player? I've noticed that older players tend to have a lot of problems with some of the newer disks as the player gets older. I think the player gets out of alignment or something and the newer DVDs for some reason have tighter tolerances than the old ones. With good players under $100, it might be time to upgrade.

The widening exhaust os probably caused by the atmospheric pressure. One of the big problems with designing rocket engines is that you have to compromise between designing the engine bell width for the differing amounts of exhaust expansion you get with different air pressures.

Palomar · 2004-04-24 07:13:44

Re: the digital artifacts. How old is your DVD player? I've noticed that older players tend to have a lot of problems with some of the newer disks as the player gets older. I think the player gets out of alignment or something and the newer DVDs for some reason have tighter tolerances than the old ones. With good players under $100, it might be time to upgrade.

*Hi SBird. Our DVD player is only 2 years old. We don't use it excessively, and other DVDs are working just fine in it. I've noticed another issue (forgot to mention previously): The brightness of the DVD waxes and wanes a bit. Some DVDs play just fine in our player; others don't. My Saturn I & IB collection plays just fine, all 3 discs; yet I've had trouble with the 3 discs comprising the Saturn V collection. And we do clean the player regularly. Oh well...one of "those things" I guess.

The widening exhaust is probably caused by the atmospheric pressure. One of the big problems with designing rocket engines is that you have to compromise between designing the engine bell width for the differing amounts of exhaust expansion you get with different air pressures.

*Thanks for answering.

--Cindy

P.S.: As for my getting a kick-back from the publisher...well, they could send me the soon-to-be-released "Apollo 13" collection for free. :;):

Hazer · 2004-04-24 13:18:33

Oh to be alive in those days. I grew up salivating at the chance to catch a live shuttle launch broadcast on TV, but the stations where I live would always play something more "interesting" like a basketball game.
Give me rockets and exhaust plumes any day over Michael Jordan and the NBA.
Oh well, maybe I can build my own liquid-fueled rocket engine as my senior design project.

Palomar · 2004-04-27 19:28:26

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/imag … htm]Stages & Etc again

*I thought the DVD didn't include any footage/info of how the launch escape system worked. Wrong! Tucked away in Disc One is non-audio test footage. Here's what I saw (2 different test launches):

The LES and CM-SM-LM are attached to a 3rd Stage (only). J-2 engine ignites into a billowing orange cloud, then liftoff. Maybe 30 seconds into flight, the 3rd stage begins rotating about 1 rotation per second. There's an explosion (nothing dramatic) with automatic separation into 2 components of course (3rd stage continuing on its way to the right, CM and tower away to the left, with thick white smoke billowing beneath both of them), forking and curly-que-ing away from each other. The CM is curling, curling, cork-screwing away to the left (if anyone had been in there, they'd be puking from severe dizziness by that point... :-\ )

***

2nd test launch. Same as above, except this time there are *3* curly-cue-ing/corkscrewing components after the firing of the LES. The middle one is tracked -- it's the CM of course.

***

Next you see what looks like a cream-colored box with a thin red, equal-armed "X" in the middle, surrounded by a circular metal bar. Suddenly there are what seem to be flames, then a jumbled red/black chaos. It's a camera, I guess tucked away on the top of the CM, pointing up; apparently it's capturing the firing of the LES. ??

***

Next you see the CM drifting gently down on a parachute (very dim image). Drifting, drifting.

***

Next is my favorite: You're looking at three large, billowing orange-and-white striped "flowers" (parachutes). Then you realize you're looking UP. Next you see the long, thick tethers they're attached to (as they come drifting into the field of view)...from the camera on top of the CM.

***

Next is footage of the capsule safe and sound on the desert floor, barely a scratch and nary a nick to be found. Parachute tethers are draped all around the mesquite bushes and there are yuccas nearby (I believe these tests were done at White Sands, just 50 miles NE of my city). Then they're loading up the capsule on the back of a big blue truck's flatbed and driving it back to the base.

Again, this part of the video has no audio/commentary. My husband was NOT happy about that.

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-04-28 09:17:46

If you were alive in those days, you'd be too old now to participate in the human colonization of Mars. I'd trade you the thirty-odd years in a minute!

Palomar · 2004-04-28 11:17:44

dicktice: "If you were alive in those days,"

*I was (born in 1965).

dicktice: "you'd be too old now to participate in the human colonization of Mars."

*I'm 38 years old, we haven't been out of LEO for over 30 years; at this rate, even I'm too old to participate in the human colonization of Mars! And considering some folks in the space exploration/colonization community are for space *tourism* (in LEO) and militarizing to the teeth before moving out to Mars...well, ::glances at wristwatch:: Looks like I'm going to miss out on Marsian action too.

dicktice: "I'd trade you the thirty-odd years in a minute!"

*What, go from 38 to 68 in a minute? No thanks.

Apollo and the Saturn V are the best action we've ever had, as space exploration goes, so please pardon my infatuation with it. Despite my love for the program and its moon rocket, I too am sad we have to look back -- decades back.

Oh well...after rich people are done honeymooning in LEO and after we've got Battlestar Galactica type war ships ready to pound the living daylights out of those fearsome alleged Marsian microbes...maybe then I can get some additional satisfaction.

--Cindy :laugh:

Hazer · 2004-04-28 17:25:02

You guys got to see the Saturn V, you got to see men walk on the moon. I'm still jealous. But maybe I'll get to work on the NEXT heavy lifter, maybe get an internship with NASA.

dicktice · 2004-04-29 08:16:49

Oh, and I just remembered: We didn't have Google back then. Never even predicted the Internet in the science fiction of 38 years ago. We're now, however trivially (speaking for myself, mind), participating in the First Mars Expedition as a consequence. How about that?

REB · 2004-04-29 08:41:06

When the year 2000 came around, they were showing predictions from the 1950’s on what technologies we will have by the year 2000. Not only was the Internet not even heard of, neither was the personal computer. They did predict that the housewife would be able to order items remotely on her TV set, kind of like homeshopping. This was sort of a vision of the Internet.

I remember staying up to watch the first Apollo Moon launch. It is one of my earliest memories, for I was 3 at the time.

Byron · 2004-04-29 09:41:32

When the year 2000 came around, they were showing predictions from the 1950’s on what technologies we will have by the year 2000. Not only was the Internet not even heard of, neither was the personal computer. They did predict that the housewife would be able to order items remotely on her TV set, kind of like homeshopping. This was sort of a vision of the Internet.
I remember staying up to watch the first Apollo Moon launch. It is one of my earliest memories, for I was 3 at the time.

Yeah, I've always been fascinated by "antique" visions of the future, largely shaped by my visits to Disney World as a kid...lol. Too bad it turned out to be an imagined future (as concocted by Disney's famed "Imagineers," of course :;): )

I was just a *tad* young to remember the Apollo missions...the only memories I have from that era was watching a couple of launches of the Saturn V on the TV in the early '70's.

But what I do have fond memories of is the Space Shuttle in the early '80's...I'd be glued to the TV for each and every launch in the early days, and the landings as well. When I moved to Orlando in the early '90's, I'd watch the Shuttle launches on NASA TV, and as soon it was off the launch pad, I'd step outside and look 60 miles to the east and watch it soar into the sky. I was constantly amazed how well you could see the Shuttle even at that distance, watching it going all the way up into space, especially if you used a pair of binoculars.

But the coolest thing were the landings at Kennedy...most of the landing approaches involved the Shuttle dropping down over central Florida, with its attendent sonic booms. I'd be watching the landing sequence on TV, and just when they would have the shuttle in sight from the ground...BOOMBOOM!..it was like hearing a double-barrel cannon going off just overhead..lol...I mean, it was LOUD. Then about two minutes later, you could see the stubby craft turning onto short final at 350+ mph (on TV), dropping like a brick before flaring out on the runway for a picture-perfect landing...that was always an amazing, thrilling thing to see.

I know the Space Shuttle hasn't worked out to what it was meant to be, but at least I got to personally experience that aspect of America's space program...if any of you ever get a chance to watch a space launch in person, even an unmanned launch, do it...you won't regret it.

B

REB · 2004-04-29 10:05:10

I have wanted to see a Shuttle launch since they started launching them. I had a chance in 1984. I was there at the Cape and a shuttle was on the pad, ready to launch, but they scrubbed it during countdown.

I did see it launch almost life-size on a six story IMAX screen with car-size speakers roaring away. It looked, sounded, and even felt real.

Palomar · 2004-04-29 10:09:06

*Hi...would you all please consider creating a different thread for discussions about the Shuttle? I'd like to keep this thread focused on Saturn V (and Apollo).

Thanks.

--Cindy

REB · 2004-04-29 10:28:54

Okay Cindy.

I am a native Houstonian, and the Saturn V over at NASA has been a familiar sight for as long as I can remember. I feel both fascinated and sad when I see it. Sad because it seems to cry, “Launch me!”. But the poor beast has been lying there, broken in segments and exposed to the elements for at least 30 years.

BTW, have you heard about the Saturn V booster that has been orbiting the Sun in a similar was captured by Earth;

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/r … 20918.html

Byron · 2004-04-29 11:42:41

BTW, have you heard about the Saturn V booster that has been orbiting the Sun in a similar was captured by Earth;

And did you see that it has a 20% chance of hitting the Moon next year? That'd be a cool thing to see, huh?

B

REB · 2004-04-29 12:02:34

Byron, I forgot to note that that was a September 2002. The impact was supposed to happen in 2003. I never heard about it happening last year so I don't know what happened.

Maybe I'll dig around and find out.

Hazer · 2004-04-29 14:26:27

Good point Dicktice.

Palomar · 2004-04-30 05:28:31

BTW, have you heard about the Saturn V booster that has been orbiting the Sun in a similar was captured by Earth;
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/r … 20918.html

*Hi REB: Yes, I have known of this news item previously. Thanks for the reminder, though (hard to keep up with all the "news").

By the way, I forgot to mention that video of Apollo 11's Saturn V shows relatively large chunks of ice (?) -- or what looks like whitish ice -- falling from around the 1st Stage. Shaun mentioned this phenomenon as well (but not directly related to Apollo 11's Saturn V), many posts ago. I suppose the hot July weather had something to do with it? I don't see anything similar during launches at cooler times of the year. Just wondering...like usual.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: I've not heard any news of a Moon impact either, by that booster.

REB · 2004-04-30 06:01:53

If you have ever emptied a can of Freon in your car or home’s ac low side line, or if you have used a bottle of propane, and you do it on a humid summer day, you’ll notice ice forming on the bottle.

This is due to the fact that as a gas expands it cools (And when it is compressed it heats up). It is also due to the dew point related to the air temperature. The warmer the air, the more moisture it holds. So on warm humid days, more water vapor is in the are for the ice to form.

As the fuel tanks of the rockets loose fuel, they would cool. Some rockets, like the Shuttle boosters, use cold liquid fuels, so the fuel tanks are already cold. As the liquid escapes from the tank, there would be more cooling, but the tanks are already so cold, I don’t think it would make much of a difference.

I don’t remember what the Saturn V used for fuel, but a quick search of the internet would provide the answer, I am sure.

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#76 2004-04-20 08:32:35

Re: The Saturn V

#77 2004-04-20 13:58:32

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