New Mars Forums

TJohn

Banned

Registered: 2002-08-06

Posts: 149

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Here's the link:  http://www.space.com/news/commentary_vi … ]Space.com

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One day...we will get to Mars and the rest of the galaxy!!  Hopefully it will be by Nuclear power!!!

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

*That's not the only (potential) trouble NASA faces, some of it "thanks" to its own doing.  I read a different article at space.com yesterday, wherein NASA snubbed China re: future cooperation in space.  Apparently the excuse given was that China's technology "isn't mature."

China is, as most folks here know, teaming up with ESA.

There have been similar discussions in this vein before.

http://www.space.com/news/us_china_040428.html]read me

I guess we'll find out if this was a good decision or not...

Anyone seen the book entitled "NASA:  Lost in Space"?  It's getting exasperating, all the way around.  I'm not saying I *want* us to cooperate with the Chinese (I'm neutral about it by default, i.e. don't have enough info to call it either way), but I'm just not sure NASA knows what it's doing anymore.  The probes and etc. are great...but the rest seems to be piddly stuff.  That snub to the Chinese may be another tightening of the noose for us.  We'll see. 

--Cindy

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We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

We'll either wake up and quickly overtake the Chinese when it looks like they're about to take the lead... or we won't, and they'll get their shot at making the future in their image.

It all hinges on the tenacity, pride, and perhaps belligerence of the American people. We have time, but not as much as some think.

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Bill White

Member

Registered: 2001-09-09

Posts: 2,114

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

We'll either wake up and quickly overtake the Chinese when it looks like they're about to take the lead... or we won't, and they'll get their shot at making the future in their image.

It all hinges on the tenacity, pride, and perhaps belligerence of the American people. We have time, but not as much as some think.

Hmmm. . .  a Chinese desire to have a "do-over" of that episode when the Ming Dynasty burned their ocean going ships 100 years before Columbus seems like a great plot theme for a novel.

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

China is still a ways from getting anyplace... engineering is an iterative(sp?) process, and they don't have much experience. Copying Russian aerodynamics and rockets will only get them so far (especially without an HLLV), and even that takes some time. There just isn't a whole lot of truth to this "rapidly growing red space menace" stuff.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

China is still a ways from getting anyplace... engineering is an iterative(sp?) process, and they don't have much experience. Copying Russian aerodynamics and rockets will only get them so far (especially without an HLLV), and even that takes some time. There just isn't a whole lot of truth to this "rapidly growing red space menace" stuff.

That's why we have some time yet, but they'll advance at a much faster rate than we will. It's an advantage of authoritarian states. (Don't go reading anything into that! It's just a statement of fact )

We have to debate every little detail through committee while they can say "Give us moon rockets," and the engineers go to work. Then the machinists go to work. Then the launch crew. Meanwhile, we're still wrangling over the budget.

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Eh, China is not this massive giant super economic powerhouse yet, and these things cost money. Yes they can do more for cheaper, but the Chinese aren't even beginning to remotely start outlining the procedure to begin the process of considering if they should decide to think about contemplating an HLLV... while we already have one, it just happens that the upper stage is a 100 ton airplane.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Bill White

Member

Registered: 2001-09-09

Posts: 2,114

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Eh, China is not this massive giant super economic powerhouse yet, and these things cost money. Yes they can do more for cheaper, but the Chinese aren't even beginning to remotely start outlining the procedure to begin the process of considering if they should decide to think about contemplating an HLLV... while we already have one, it just happens that the upper stage is a 100 ton airplane.

:;):

= = =

Think tortoise and hare. If the hare naps for 30 or 50 years, does it matter how slow the tortoise plods?

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Well the tortise doesn't have the giant 3,000,000lbs thrust SRBs or blueprints for the 2,000,000lbs F-1A rocket or the 250,000lbs thrust NERVA-NTR nuclear engine or actual experience with Lunar landers & operations.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Think tortoise and hare. If the hare naps for 30 or 50 years, does it matter how slow the tortoise plods?

GCNRevenger:  "Yes they can do more for cheaper, but the Chinese aren't even beginning to remotely start outlining the procedure to begin the process of considering if they should decide to think about contemplating an HLLV..."

*My vote for "most interesting sentence of the week". 

Bill...ever seen turtle races?  They can move a lot quicker than most folks realize.  Perhaps it's a special breed I've seen at those races, but dang...they're no slow-pokes.  And yes, I "get" the analogy anyway.

--Cindy

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We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Josh Cryer

Moderator

Registered: 2001-09-29

Posts: 3,830

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

There was a NOVA special on PBS a few days ago about China's "progress." China is a special case in that it can essentially take technology from other countries which have spent years developing it, essentially getting the development for free.

The special was called "World in the Balance." One of the most striking stats from it was that China is going to overtake the US in 5 years as the worlds biggest car buyer. Most of the images from the show essentially showed a westernized China. A China not that unlike the US. China's economic growth has been simply unparalleled.

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/200417/Busin … 417(F).htm

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Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Mark Friedenbach

Member

From: Mountain View, CA

Registered: 2003-01-31

Posts: 325

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/worldbalance/]NOVA: World in the Balance

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,816

Website

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Yes they can do more for cheaper, but the Chinese aren't even beginning to remotely start outlining the procedure to begin the process of considering if they should decide to think about contemplating an HLLV...

Yes this is an interesting sentence. According to the CD-ROM version of Encylcopedia Astronautica, the Chinese http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/czn522ho.htm]Long March CZ-5-5.0 has a number of configurations. The largest is with a 5 metre diameter core stage, 5 metre diameter upper stage, and 8 strap-on boosters each 3.35 metre diameter. That provides a total 40 tonne lift to LEO. The web site describes the same stages, but only gives lift capacity for with fewer strap-ons: 2 x 2.25 metre plus 2 x 3.35 metre strap-ons can lift 11 tonnes to geosynchronous transfer orbit. This may not be on scale with the 88 tonnes that Energia could lift to 200km orbit, or the 115.9 tonnes that Saturn V could lift to 185km orbit, but Delta IV Large can only lift 25.8 tonnes to 185km orbit. It sounds like they are "contemplating" an HLLV.

Yang Liwei Rocket

Member

Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: Trouble for NASA? - This doesn't look good right now

Much is changing now

there was the idea from another article saying about how Europe and Russian ideas can move forward an article from the journal Nature that says that Russia is considering joining the European Space Agency.

They have a lot to bring with them. Russian / European co-operation may actually extend the life of the ISS. Russia has the launch capability and ESA has cash, and an Aerospace industry keen to prove itself.[

NASA has done fantastic thing sin the past with the Voyager probes and putting people on the Moon but now it hasn't been good for a while. People are also uncertain about the Bush space plan and how they are going to have men on Mars, the idea has faced much criticism from a number of key people. There is now the issue of safety and people are worried about other issues like fianacial scandals, security amd rebuilding Iraq. Some of called the plan nothing but an election stunt. Just check out the thread on Glenns harsh words to see some information, I hope NASA can do something

China has also become a possible player

a report on the after effects of the China advancements in space programs

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … gonreports

The U.S. Department of Defense report -- Annual Report on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China -- was made publicly available May 29. It takes a look at current and probable future course of military-technological development on the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and the doctrine and probable evolution of Chinese grand strategy, security strategy, and military strategy, and of the military organizations and operational concepts, through the next two decades.

QUOTE 
For the past 5 years China has sought to diversify its sources of foreign technology -- to include military technology -- in an effort to avoid over reliance on a single source for military technology and to reduce its dependence on the United States for dual-use and civilian technologies.

Small satellites

China is interested in electronic intelligence (ELINT) or signals intelligence (SIGINT) reconnaissance satellites.

"Although all of these digital data systems probably will be able to transmit directly to ground sites, China may be developing a system of data relay satellites to support global coverage," the DoD report states. ...

china has made public its space plans
news.bbc.co.uk

China aims to send a spacecraft to the Moon in three years' time, the head of the country's space agency, Sun Laiyan, has confirmed to the BBC. as well as building their own orbiting space station

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'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )