Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

Algol · 2004-04-14 10:29:37

Our very own mars society has a handy article [http://www.marssociety.org.au/marsskin.shtml]here - marsskin

Enyo · 2004-04-23 04:34:21

Maybe this mechanical pressure can be limited to the fingers and that can be a good idea. As far as I know there pressurized clothes are most unwelcome.

In 1980's Mitchell Clapp worked on a MCP glove and most current work focuses on them. Like James Waldie's work.

Enyo · 2004-04-23 04:38:58

That's not a bad idea. Why not just pressurize the torso - eliminating most of the problems with the problem concave areas. Leave the legs and arms in unpressurized sleeves with adjustable straps so that size changes can be accomodated.
One advantage is that the torso/head region can be reinforced against impacts and made to be more ofa hard shell. If an astronaut takes a tumble and cuts open his kneepad, there's no explosive decompression. Instead, there's a localized hickey effect and blood being siphoned out of a cut. While not a great situation, it's not instantly lethal and can easily be treated in the field.
From single track mountain biking, I can attest that crashes overwhelmingly favor the extremeties for tearing up clothing. Any design that eliminates that weak link is inherently safer already regardless of what other advantages the design confers.

This is one solution that has been suggested.

A soft pressure torso or hard upper torso like the current EMU Hut has some nice aspects to them. But, in either case you would require some sort of dam at the neck, arms and legs.

Palomar · 2004-04-23 10:43:52

*Would be cool if the need for suits could be eliminated altogether. Think of a forcefield surrounding the body, generated by something on a utility belt. [Ever see Star Trek cartoons?] Of course there'd still have to be an O2 supply...maybe in the form of a small backpack with nasal prongs or mouth/nose mask.

--Cindy

quasar777 · 2004-04-29 10:45:26

excellent, i`ve heard of folks wishing for a skirtless hovercraft. perhaps that line of work would evolve into a smaller field usage. about other types of suits; i`d always simply leave a suit "outside", as a way of keeping dust down.

mboeller · 2004-05-08 03:01:33

Hi; my first posting.

For me MCP-suits are the way to go, cause they allow the most freedom of movement.

IMHO the technology for an MCP-suit is already at hand too. The german air-force at the moment tests the new "libelle" anti-g suit for the Typhoon jet fighter. They will introduce this suit in a few months.

The libelle suit works with hydrostatic pressure to prevent the g-loc syndrom at high acceleration.

The "only" thing which has to be added to this suit is an pressure source to pressurise the fluid in the suit at zero-g too.

Link : http://www.autofluglibelle.com/]http:// … belle.com/

As you can see on the page the Libelle-suit is slim and allows a nearly natural movement as long as the pressure is not put on. but even @ 9g the pilots can move their hand without an problem so imho this suit will allow nearly natural movement even as an MCP-suit cause hopefully the pressure needed in zero-g will be lower.

Rxke · 2004-05-08 09:38:30

hi, mboeller!

Yes, that libelle suit is *awesome*, i've read about it when they were doing the first tests, and the test pilots just absolutely fell in love with it!
They said, normal missions, when you pull those g-forces it's really exhausting on the body, sometimes they have to get help from the groundcrew to get out of their planes afterwards, with that suit, nothing like that... Huge improvement over the classical design.
Never thought about the idea you had: using it in vacuum.

Should be investigated, you're right.

Rxke · 2004-05-08 09:44:27

Hmmm... Adding a pressure source wouldn't be too difficult, just add another small pressurised bottle or even use the oxygen used for breathing...

You're on to something, there, man! Great thinking!

And they're already halfway there. From the site:

"In 2002, the feasibility has been proved in the high altitude chamber of Königsbrück, Germany. At the moment, man rating tests are ongoing to evaluate the integrated High Altitude Protection System of the LIBELLE G-Multiplus® which will be capable of protecting aircrew in case of high altitude emergencies up to 65,000ft."

dicktice · 2004-05-08 10:39:13

Adrian wrote:

. . . imagine you're talking to your fellow EVA member, who is behind and right to you. He transmits voice to you, and the sound is modulated so that your headphones mimic the sound that would have really been generated if you were speaking normally in a normal atmosphere . . .

I assume, by shouting ,you could transmit voice sounds in the air of Mars. So, by using sound transmission diaphrams on either side of the pressure helmet, opposit your ears, and ditto opposit your mouth, the same effect could be achieved. If amplification is required, why the helmet equivalent of twin hearing aids, and a loud hailer should do the trick. Very important proposal--full marks, Adrian! (I shall leave the problem of such orientation in space to the simple student to solve.)
The biggest buggaboo regarding tight, clinging near-vacuum suits, has to be the problem of waste management: I get the seemingly ludicrous picture in my so-called mind, of 17th Century-style puffed pantaloons bunched about the "waste."

Palomar · 2004-05-14 07:59:17

*This item from space.com's "Astronotes" (column format, updated frequently...have to copy and paste). Finnish tech (TUT) for ESA:

"May 14

Intelligent Clothing for Astronauts

If you’re going out, say, stepping onto Mars, dress smartly.

That’s the view of the Institute of Electronics at Tampere University of Technology (TUT) in Finland. They are weaving a story called the StarTiger2 project - ideas for ‘intelligent’ clothing for astronauts, capable of checking their health while they work in free space and on other worlds.

StarTiger is an acronym for ‘Space Technology Advancements by Resourceful, Targeted and Innovative Groups of Experts and Researchers’

The goal of StarTiger2 is to develop a ‘smart’ prototype suit, containing a physiological monitoring system, explains Eike Kircher, head of the European Space Agency’s (ESA) Basic Technology Research Program.

ESA is spearheading work on the STAR-suit – clothing able to measure all vital health parameters of the person wearing it in near real time and for extended periods of time. Also, the suit design would use intelligent textiles to ensure that it is comfortable, easily washable and long lasting.

The STAR-suit will combine a number of advanced technologies: physiological measurements; sensor, communication and packaging technologies; flexible printed circuit boards and Liquid Crystal Display materials; fabric materials and embedded electronics.

A smart clothing suit, for example, would be ideal for ESA’s long-term space plans that call for human space missions beyond low Earth orbit. The astronautical apparel would be needed to monitor the status and location of astronauts carrying out extra-vehicular activities on Mars."

--Cindy

P.S.: Includes illustration of the suit at space.com. Hmmmm...I wonder what "Liquid Crystal Display" is. Will check around. This sounds fabulous, all of it.

bolbuyk · 2004-05-15 05:22:49

Hmmmm...I wonder what "Liquid Crystal Display" is. Will check around. This sounds fabulous, all of it.

Does LCD sound more familiar? This is the current technology used for calculators and digital watches. But "Liquid Crystal" really sounds exotic.

Palomar · 2004-05-15 06:14:01

Hmmmm...I wonder what "Liquid Crystal Display" is. Will check around. This sounds fabulous, all of it.
Does LCD sound more familiar? This is the current technology used for calculators and digital watches. But "Liquid Crystal" really sounds exotic.

*Hi bolbuyk: Okay! Yes, that sounds familiar. ...they sure make it sound REALLY exotic, LOL.

--Cindy

SBird · 2004-05-16 23:53:51

True, LCD's are pretty common and cheap but they are really pretty exotic things. I once saw a lecture about the invention of LCDs back in the 80's and it waas NOT simple. Basically, you're setting up a semi-crystalline array of organic molecules that are charged and optically active. When you apply a net electtrical charge to them, they all rotate and change the orientation of the light polarization through them and this causes the display to go light or dark depending on the liquid crystal orientation with respect to the polarizers next to it.

Sometimes familiarity makes us forget how amazing and exotic everyday items are. For example your computer is basically a fleck of sand that's ramming millions of electrical charges around at billions of cycles a second ata power density greater than a kitchen electric rangetop. THAT'S exotic, IMO.

Or consider a tree, it's a nanotech device that's capable of creating more of itself from air, water and trace minerals from the ground. Furthermore, it's capable of creating mobile copies of itself that are fully capable of replicating it from scratch. It harnesses sunlight with a cascading quantum mechanical energy transfer antenna device, pulls water up with a microstructured capilllary water transfer mechanism and uses nanostructured sugar reconstituted into molecularly aligned fibers to provide structural support.

Compared to that, stuff like sapphires and diamonds are downright boring and plain!

Trebuchet · 2004-05-17 03:15:25

Perhaps it would be more interesting to wonder if it's theoretically possible to make a vaccuum surviveable human, or rather a short-term Mars surviveable human.

Problems -

oxygen supply. I can think of a few things off the top of my head here. Myoglobin and polymerized hemoglobin both greatly increase the ability to retain oxygen; myoglobin is naturally found in seals/whales and presumably the necessary genes could be copied into humans. Seals can stay up to two hours underwater; that's plenty for most EVAs.

Pressure integrity. Problem areas here are the mucus membranes, lungs, eyes, groin, ears, and, er, anus. The last would be the easiest (stronger sphincter... all Martians would be anal-retentive). The eyes maybe could be protected by a clear (nicitating?) membrane (you'd probably want them because of the dust, too). Dunno what to do about the nose. Maybe you could simply deaden the sense of smell and line the inside with normal skin, but I doubt people would like that. The ears, I have no idea.

Heating/cooling - well, as far as keeping warm, subcutaneous fat does the trick for marine mammals in the arctic and could do the trick for us, too. Or maybe we'd just give up and relegate this bit to electric sweaters, unless you have any ideas.

Palomar · 2004-05-17 08:51:39

True, LCD's are pretty common and cheap but they are really pretty exotic things. I once saw a lecture about the invention of LCDs back in the 80's and it waas NOT simple. Basically, you're setting up a semi-crystalline array of organic molecules that are charged and optically active. When you apply a net electtrical charge to them, they all rotate and change the orientation of the light polarization through them and this causes the display to go light or dark depending on the liquid crystal orientation with respect to the polarizers next to it.
Sometimes familiarity makes us forget how amazing and exotic everyday items are. For example your computer is basically a fleck of sand that's ramming millions of electrical charges around at billions of cycles a second ata power density greater than a kitchen electric rangetop. THAT'S exotic, IMO.
Or consider a tree, it's a nanotech device that's capable of creating more of itself from air, water and trace minerals from the ground. Furthermore, it's capable of creating mobile copies of itself that are fully capable of replicating it from scratch. It harnesses sunlight with a cascading quantum mechanical energy transfer antenna device, pulls water up with a microstructured capilllary water transfer mechanism and uses nanostructured sugar reconstituted into molecularly aligned fibers to provide structural support.
Compared to that, stuff like sapphires and diamonds are downright boring and plain!

*It's not enough to say, "Yeah...the things we take for granted." Thanks for the info on LCD. As for your comments on trees: Wow. Life is marvelous all around, but to describe trees in the fashion you did reinforces the wonder of it all. Not being a scientist myself of course, I definitely appreciate the abilities of yourself and others.

[As for precious gemstones...actually, I'm not a gemstoneaholic. I don't care much for jewelry, but the other thread the subject came up in...well, it was solar!] :laugh:

Back on topic...

--Cindy

SBird · 2004-05-19 23:48:27

Regarding makinga human vacuum survivable, those aren't bad suggestions. However, the biggest stumbling block is the whole lack of oxygen bit. Replacing hemiglobin withother variants, public preceptions aside, doesn't help. It really bugs me when popular science articles talk about how whale myoglobin would allow ahuman to hold their breath for an hour, this is patently false. Myoglobin holds exactly the same amount of oxygen as hemiglobin does - it just holds onto it tighter. Our blood already carries about as much hemiglobin as it can so there's not much room for improvement.

One approach would be to have a sphincter that could seal off the lungs from vacuum and have some sort of surgically implanted shunt that hooked the circulatory system up to a compressed oxygen source.

A more legant but much more difficult solution would be to get rid of the need for oxygen at all. Oxygen basically acts as an electron acceptor in the body's energy generation process. If you have some way of wiring your mitochondria up to wires, you could dispense with O2 completely. In that case, your human would be electrically powered. The power requiremetns are fairly low as a human runs off the equivalent of about 100 watts of power.

SBird · 2004-05-19 23:56:00

ecrasez - folks who claim that a scientific way of looking at the world is unromantic and demeaning to nature always puzzle me. IMO, the application of anthromorphic morals and motivations to the incredible universe we live in is the worst possible insult we could place upon it. There's plenty of beauty out there if one knows where to look.

Trebuchet · 2004-05-20 00:10:47

Er... actually the idea was to put the myoglobin in muscle tissue. That's why seal meat is so dark; the muscles have their own store of oxygen built right in. Increasing the blood's oxygen supply, as you note, wouldn't be helped by myoglobin, although artificial polymerized hemoglobin is a more effective oxygen carrier.

Hmm.... actually, that plymerized hemoglobin is capable of holding far more oxygen than normal blood. Perhaps an 'artificial organ' could be manufactured, basically an implant of a super-high concentration of polymerized hemoglobin. As the chemical is capable of 'handing off' oxygen to blood cells, if a way of preventing the stuff from entering the bloodstream while handing oxygen to the blood cells itself could be found...

SBird · 2004-05-20 11:17:48

You'd get a slight increase in O2 carrying capacity by polymerizing the hemiglobin but not much, the hemoglobin in your red blood cells is already packed in quite tightly. In sickle cell anemia, low oxygen levels cause hemiglobin to polymerize and the overall reduction in the hemiglobin volume fraction doesn't change that much, the fibers are enough to completely deform the cell.

Our muscles already have quite a bit of myoglobin-like proteins. You could up the amounta bit but you'd gain at most a few dozen seconds of oxygen carrying capacity.

The big drawback of hemiglobin is that it doesn't carry much oxygen. Basically, youe got this big protein with a molecular mass of tens of thousands of AMUs and it carrys one O2 molecule. If one could manufacture an artificial small molecule analogue of hemiglobin such as a modified heme poryphrin, you could theoretically expect something like a 10-fold increase in O2 carrying capacity.

Rxke · 2004-05-23 09:11:10

http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/05/22.html]What to wear on Mars

21kg suit developed...

mboeller · 2004-05-24 10:23:24

Yep, that's an nice design. More information can be found here :

http://www.asminternational.org/pdf/spo … arsmat.pdf

I especially like the Demron™ Material from Radshield to absorb radiation. Seems a nice material to counter most radiation. Unfortunately it is not really effective against high energetic radiation, but only against medium energetic radiation at the most.

Link : http://www.radshield.com/]http://www.radshield.com/

Palomar · 2004-06-15 08:33:24

*space.com's "Astronotes" (column, updated format; must paste and copy) for June 15 discusses Demron. Are also looking into its use on domestic airliners.

***
If humans are ever to strut their stuff across Mars, live and work there, radiation protection is a must. One energetic solution to suit design is possible use of anti-radiation fabric already woven into society here on Earth.

Researchers are studying Demron™, originally developed to protect rescue and medical personnel in responding to incidents and accidents involving x-ray and gamma radiation.

Garments made of the fabric are produced utilizing nanotechnology.

Radiation Shield Technologies, Inc. of Coral Gables, Florida, creators of Demron™, notes that the special fabric material is a product of a controlled manufacturing process involving exact molecular configurations needed to block radioactivity.

A study on material choices for protecting Mars travelers was recently published in The Journal of Materials Engineering and Performance. That work pointed to Demron™ as a choice material for space suits that must be lightweight, flexible, and provide the needed radiation protection.

Along with Mars suits, as well as Homeland Security needs for radiological defense, Demron™ is being eyed for use in high-flying commercial airliners.

The material can be made into flight uniforms to combat cosmic radiation exposures in flight – rates that are hundreds of times greater than at ground level. Furthermore, the anti-radiation fabric is a good addition to the exterior of aircraft as paint to protect frequent flyers from cosmic radiation on the way to those Sun-baking beach resorts.
***

--Cindy
*space.com's "Astronotes" (column, updated format; must paste and copy) for June 15 discusses Demron. Are also looking into its use on domestic airliners.

***
If humans are ever to strut their stuff across Mars, live and work there, radiation protection is a must. One energetic solution to suit design is possible use of anti-radiation fabric already woven into society here on Earth.

Researchers are studying Demron™, originally developed to protect rescue and medical personnel in responding to incidents and accidents involving x-ray and gamma radiation.

Garments made of the fabric are produced utilizing nanotechnology.

Radiation Shield Technologies, Inc. of Coral Gables, Florida, creators of Demron™, notes that the special fabric material is a product of a controlled manufacturing process involving exact molecular configurations needed to block radioactivity.

A study on material choices for protecting Mars travelers was recently published in The Journal of Materials Engineering and Performance. That work pointed to Demron™ as a choice material for space suits that must be lightweight, flexible, and provide the needed radiation protection.

Along with Mars suits, as well as Homeland Security needs for radiological defense, Demron™ is being eyed for use in high-flying commercial airliners.

The material can be made into flight uniforms to combat cosmic radiation exposures in flight – rates that are hundreds of times greater than at ground level. Furthermore, the anti-radiation fabric is a good addition to the exterior of aircraft as paint to protect frequent flyers from cosmic radiation on the way to those Sun-baking beach resorts.
***

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-06-15 18:29:46

That Demron should be used to line the interior of the Hab and ERV, and every interior divider-wall, on the first Mars missions. The astronauts' coveralls should be made of it, as should their bedding.
Good point, Cindy, about the jetset avoiding radiation on their frequent flights to places where they strip off and cook themselves on sundrenched beaches!

And thanks for those Phoebe pictures - such amazing clarity! All that ice (if that's what it is) will have people here starting a 'Terraforming Phoebe' thread any minute now.

Trebuchet · 2004-06-15 22:53:56

And with my Demron underoos, I am now ready to conquer all possible worlds - except Venus.

Palomar · 2004-06-16 07:21:28

That Demron should be used to line the interior of the Hab and ERV, and every interior divider-wall, on the first Mars missions. The astronauts' coveralls should be made of it, as should their bedding.

*Good idea. As for clothing and bedding ("linens")...for some reason the image of Marsian astronauts snoozing in the hab under a Demron blanket, with a Demron sleeping cap (ala old-fashioned sleeping caps) on each head, came to mind. :laugh:

Maybe I've been hanging around New Mars too much. :-\

--Cindy

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2004-04-14 10:29:37

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#27 2004-04-23 04:34:21

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#28 2004-04-23 04:38:58

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#29 2004-04-23 10:43:52

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#30 2004-04-29 10:45:26

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#31 2004-05-08 03:01:33

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#32 2004-05-08 09:38:30

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#33 2004-05-08 09:44:27

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#34 2004-05-08 10:39:13

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#35 2004-05-14 07:59:17

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#36 2004-05-15 05:22:49

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#37 2004-05-15 06:14:01

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#38 2004-05-16 23:53:51

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#39 2004-05-17 03:15:25

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#40 2004-05-17 08:51:39

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#41 2004-05-19 23:48:27

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#42 2004-05-19 23:56:00

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#43 2004-05-20 00:10:47

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#44 2004-05-20 11:17:48

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#45 2004-05-23 09:11:10

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#46 2004-05-24 10:23:24

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#47 2004-06-15 08:33:24

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#48 2004-06-15 18:29:46

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#49 2004-06-15 22:53:56

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

#50 2004-06-16 07:21:28

Re: Lets brainstorm on suit design - We will need suits after all

Board footer