Children growing up on Mars - ..problems and possible solutions...

Palomar · 2002-07-11 11:45:25

What would be the odds of survival and prospects for a child born to a crew member of a Mars Direct style mission?

*I'd have to say probably not very good. If the actual labor and delivery process occurred while landed on Mars, I'm thinking it'd be an easier process [because at least there is an amount of gravity on Mars] versus giving birth in the spaceship -- unless the spaceship rotates to create artificial gravity.

The biggest issue is whether the mother can nurse [not all women are capable of nursing, i.e. the milk doesn't come down or the nipples invert, etc.]; however, even if the breast milk has come down fine, there's always a chance the child might be lactose intolerant. Even if they have powdered milk aboard, and can rig up a bottle, the baby might not be able to tolerate that milk either.

If the baby would tolerate milk feedings fine, there's the issue of diet supplementation; babies need -- and can eat -- cereal, fruits, and vegetables [the latter pureed, of course] after 4-5 months of age. Where will these food items come from, and how could dehydrated fruit REhydrated be pureed on a spaceship with limited resources?

It would be difficult at best -- an outright nightmare at worst. There's also the matter of a crying baby getting on peoples' nerves -- especially a colicky baby.

I hope to god this never happens. The last thing the crew would need to deal with is an infant and all the demands and special requirements babies need. It'd be a disservice to everyone, especially the baby.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2002-07-12 11:32:54

I?m not suggesting that it would be simple to keep a child alive and physically healthy on a Mars Direct style mission. For one thing, the ERV?s life support supply margin is not sufficient to return the crew to Earth with an extra person. They?re stranded. The clothing available aboard the hab is utterly unsuitable, as are the sanitation and hygiene supplies. Then there?s the food problems Cindy mentioned.

However, one should note that these are all essentially supply problems. Nine months of lead time might allow Mission Control to do something about this using an unmanned resupply mission.

Then there's the matter of the crew morale. If there's anything in the universe capable of shredding the mission plan, it's an infant. From the moment a baby comes on board, you may safely consider a quarter of the mission objectives unfulfillable and half of the rest ignored. However, an infant with a chance of survival is just as likely to be a rallying point for a small isolated group as it is to be a source of discord. It's just depends on the crew.

Other dreaded problems are likely of the imaginary variety.

Delivery in zero gravity, for example, is not an issue. True, I suspect that artificial gravity will be employed during the trip, but the baby won?t be born in time to enjoy it during the trip out. The trip to Mars is less than nine months, and any misguided attempt to use a free-return trajectory is suicide (or infanticide) for the same reason the original ERV is useless ? lack of supplies. A free return trajectory takes away any reasonable chance of resupply, and that takes away any reasonable chance of survival. At least if you can get to the Martian surface, you can tap the (now useless) ERV.

If mommy wants to keep the baby, she?s going to Mars.

Incidentally, even if the crewman (excuse me, ?crewwoman? ) opts for abortion, it may not be any safer under the conditions of the mission than trying to take the baby to Mars. I must assume that the crew will be using some sort of long term birth control, if only to control menstruation. (Note: Pregancy is still a possibility. Depa-Provera is 99.99% effective, not 100.00%) It?s entirely possible that no one is going to notice anything amiss until the pregnancy has progressed quite far. There is a regimen of pills that can be used to induce an abortion, but it becomes less and less safe to use as the pregnancy progresses. A D&E procedure is hardly the safest thing for any random medic to be doing to his/her crewmate. Even though having the child is risky, terminating the pregnancy may not be the safer option in all cases.

A pregnancy on a Mars Direct style mission creates an emergency, but it does not create a medical emergency. It merely increases the risk of one. The immediate problems are material and logistic, not medical. Problems of material can be solved if there are sufficient resources and warning time. So can problems of logistics.

CME

Phobos · 2002-07-12 22:16:10

I?m not suggesting that it would be simple to keep a child alive and physically healthy on a Mars Direct style mission. For one thing, the ERV?s life support supply margin is not sufficient to return the crew to Earth with an extra person. They?re stranded. The clothing available aboard the hab is utterly unsuitable, as are the sanitation and hygiene supplies. Then there?s the food problems Cindy mentioned.

Maybe Byron was originally assuming that by the time children become a reality on Mars there might already be a thriving colony with many people and a suitable infrastructure in place for manufacturing needed supplies like clothing, etc. Since this post is in "Civilizations and Cultures" that might be a safe assumption. Having a few habs linked together with a handful of people occupying them doesn't really constitute much of a civilization.

Byron · 2002-07-13 07:25:40

Maybe Byron was originally assuming that by the time children become a reality on Mars there might already be a thriving colony with many people and a suitable infrastructure in place for manufacturing needed supplies like clothing, etc. Since this post is in "Civilizations and Cultures" that might be a safe assumption. Having a few habs linked together with a handful of people occupying them doesn't really constitute much of a civilization.

This is exactly what was on my mind when I initiated this thread...the idea of having kids on a research base with Mars Direct-style huts is terrifying to say the least, and I sincerely hope that kind of situation will be avoided.

While many of us are attracted to the idea of Martian children...the reality of Mars' environment means that they will have to wait until a "suitable" infrastructure is put into place, and that may take a while...

B

C M Edwards · 2002-07-13 20:43:38

Obviously, the bare bones of the Mars Direct mission is not a suitable infrastructure. But what is?

If we have enough people there long enough, children will be conceived whether the infrastructure is there or not. Unless crewmembers are sterilized, random chance will eventually see to it.

So, since they're coming anyway, what's required to raise children?

CME

C M Edwards · 2002-07-13 20:43:45

Obviously, the bare bones of the Mars Direct mission is not a suitable infrastructure. But what is?

If we have enough people there long enough, children will be conceived whether the infrastructure is there or not. Unless crewmembers are sterilized, random chance will eventually see to it.

So, since they're coming anyway, what's required to raise children?

CME

Bill White · 2002-07-15 12:34:19

So, since they're coming anyway, what's required to raise children?

Once early settlers have a good grasp of in situ resource utilization; and

*IF* 3/8ths gravity is not a show stopper for safe conception, gestation and birth of viable babies; then

I believe building infrastructure for support families will not be all that difficult.

If Martian regolith and water can be fashioned into concrete and if Martian regolith, water and recycled materials from the settlement can be fashioned into hydroponic solution, then

a family can add kids merely by enlarging the greenhouse and building an addition onto the dome.

A lot of "IFS" - but isn't in situ resource utilization the essence of Mars Direct?

IMHO - the effect of 3/8th gravity on our ability to produce viable children is the biggest single hurdle and until we do mammal experiements, I believe anyone's opinion is mere speculation

BTW - It has occured to me that TransLife may be a BIG risk.

What if the mice babies are born deformed. Space advocacy will be dealt a serious blow. Hopefully those in charge will do all their homework and give the experiment the attention it deserves

C M Edwards · 2002-07-16 11:41:26

Well, while my instinct would be to argue that Translife is no more of a risk than any other scientific experiment, my gut tells me that I'll be very disappointed if mammals (like people) can't survive and multiply in low gravity fields. And that is a perfectly conceivable outcome, for which we must be prepared. A lot is riding on that little can of mice.

CME

Palomar · 2002-07-18 08:15:58

So, since they're coming anyway, what's required to raise children?
CME

*Well, nutritional needs will have to be met; I touched on this earlier. If mom's breast milk isn't tolerable to the child, alternatives will have to be available, particularly if there is no other woman currently nursing a child. But in the case of lactose intolerance, a substitute such as Enfamil, ProSobee, etc., should be available. Cow's milk reconstituted from powdered -- heck, even fresh cow's milk [which won't be available on Mars, I know, but bear with me please while I make my point] -- isn't generally tolerated or recommended for babies ages 0-12 months. Then, of course, children's diets must be supplemented with fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

Children on Mars should receive vaccinations if they are going to be exposed to shipments from Earth crawling with Earth bacteria, not to mention new human arrivals they'll encounter.

Diapering. Cloth diapers are the only solution I can think of for babies on Mars. It's a recycling process, of course, but requires a lot of cleaning -- read: water.

There are the educational and recreational requirements and needs; I've touched on these elsewhere.

Another major issue will be clothing. Kids grow fast, and I'll go on the presumption here that even in the lower gravity they'll still grow rather quickly. Perhaps wealthy and/or concerned citizens on Earth will send clothing and boot/shoe donations. Regardless, a sewing machine or something akin should be available for the making of alterations in clothing size.

Those are a few issues. I'm pressed for time, so will end here for now...

--Cindy

Bill White · 2002-07-18 11:42:46

Diapering. Cloth diapers are the only solution I can think of for babies on Mars. It's a recycling process, of course, but requires a lot of cleaning -- read: water.

Execellent point.

IMHO - no children without a substantial surplus supply of water.

But, once such a supply is accumulated, diapers can be washed in water and the water run through the treatment facilities and everything will be fine, IMHO.

Another major issue will be clothing. Kids grow fast, and I'll go on the presumption here that even in the lower gravity they'll still grow rather quickly. Perhaps wealthy and/or concerned citizens on Earth will send clothing and boot/shoe donations

Has anyone ever mentioned rapid prototype machines?

Essentially they are 3-D inkjet printers. If they could spray multi-part polyesters or other resins - rather than ink - many household items could be made quite easily in this way.

Today, these machines are expensive - maybe $50,000? - and mostly used for things like making chalk replicas of skulls and other body parts - a surgeon in CA sends 3-D imaging data by e-mail to a surgeon in NY and the NY surgeon makes a 3-D chalk replica of the body part for use in consultation.

Engineers and designers also use them to form chalk replicas of buildings, cars, airplane parts, etc. . . and consult while thousands of miles apart.

Its all a matter of computing power and in 20 years the computer portion will be way much cheaper and *IF* the tiny jets spray droplets of polyester, plastic or other materials instead of chalk, then a settlement can make blankets and maybe clothing - forks, cups, spoons, toothbrushes? - seals for space suits and hatches - small furniture? Just about anything.

Once an item is used up, too small or worn, just melt it down in a solvent, chemically process as needed and re-form into a new item.

Bill White · 2002-07-18 11:46:54

Rapid prototype link:

Denford link

Use google and you will find many, many others. . .

I deliberately choose a seeming non-military site

C M Edwards · 2002-07-18 11:59:56

Ooh. Clothing is definitely a big issue for kids.

A clothes washer operating with liquid CO2 will be heavier than one using water, but if one had an old ERV to cannibalize there's bound to be some useful parts in the propellant plant that can both contain and operate at that pressure. With a motor and belt, you could cobble a washer together out of spare parts. Or, if you had a lot of water at your disposal, you could get yourself a tub and a washboard and clean your kids clothes the old fashioned way.

Either way, if the resources exist to clean clothes, it's likely that the equipment will, too.

Cloth is the main problem for children's clothing. Synthetics can be washed in lye, hydrogen peroxide and other caustics which can be manufactured from native resources. Polypropylene, polyethylene, polyester and nylon can all be made from processes that start with nothing more complicated than water and methane. However, the equipment required to do so is complicated. And their absortion characteristics (so vital for diapers) tend to be poor.

Natural fibers are a great solution, but also a great unknown. Flax is somewhat wheat-like. Can it be grown under the same conditions? Is cotton acceptable, or does it need more light? Most of the research on Martian gardening to date has focused around food plants. There are still many questions.

Alternately, there are low tech solutions. Some cultures don't clothe children as extensively as adults right from birth. Perhaps we could ask the Martian children to do without?

CME

Palomar · 2002-07-19 09:29:17

Another major issue will be clothing. Kids grow fast, and I'll go on the presumption here that even in the lower gravity they'll still grow rather quickly. Perhaps wealthy and/or concerned citizens on Earth will send clothing and boot/shoe donations
Has anyone ever mentioned rapid prototype machines?

*Hi Bill. I checked out the link you provided in your other post. Wow, this is cool. I've never heard of this technology before; it seems science-fictionish.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2002-07-19 14:51:49

In the world of recreational sailing, sails can now be made by molding rather than sewing. Sailcloth no longer needs to be woven or sewn or stitched.

Sailcloth would be awful to wear - perhaps good for overalls - but that would seem to be mostly a problem of the precise mix of chemicals you mold with.

Dacron, mylar, polyester, nylon are all artificial polymers that apparently need NOT be spun into thread and then woven into cloth into order to have a facsimile of fabric. Then the problem is not one of importing/growing cotton, wool etc. . .

Rather, can the settlement form complex hydrocabon polymers from Martian carbon dioxide?

Zubrin demonstrates, I believe, a simple method for making ethylene and if these molecules can be fused together, more complex polymers may be available to an early colony.

Also what about silkworms?

Bring 10 or 20 kilograms of silkworms - hold the population stable on the trip from Earth to Mars - but provide the circumstances needed for a huge silkworm population explosion once you arrive.

Silk sheets for everyone!

Byron · 2002-07-19 14:56:35

Also what about silkworms?
Bring 10 or 20 kilograms of silkworms - hold the population stable on the trip from Earth to Mars - but provide the circumstances needed for a huge silkworm population explosion once you arrive.
Silk sheets for everyone!

That sounds like a good idea..I love the idea of all-silk clothing...sounds quite luxurious..lol. But I have one question. What do silkworms eat, and how much?? I have this vision of all these worms happily eating their way through crops and other plants intended for other uses... ???

B

Bill White · 2002-07-19 15:29:00

Byron, your wish is my command!

How to Raise Silkworms in the Classroom

Phobos · 2002-07-19 20:23:21

Well, while my instinct would be to argue that Translife is no more of a risk than any other scientific experiment, my gut tells me that I'll be very disappointed if mammals (like people) can't survive and multiply in low gravity fields. And that is a perfectly conceivable outcome, for which we must be prepared. A lot is riding on that little can of mice.
CME

God, that would be depressing if having children is nearly impossible on Mars. So much for colonizing the red planet in that case. Manned Mars missions will be little more than expensive science fair projects.

Palomar · 2002-07-24 16:43:47

Ooh. Clothing is definitely a big issue for kids...
Alternately, there are low tech solutions. Some cultures don't clothe children as extensively as adults right from birth. Perhaps we could ask the Martian children to do without?
CME

*Hmmmm. That'd depend on the preferences of the parents, their religious or cultural backgrounds and sentiments, etc. I'm thinking an easy solution would be 2-piece slacks for kids that are only stitched at an ::elastic:: waist-band, and the sides [both inner and outer] of which are held together with snaps or Velcro, and not stitched seams. I'm thinking this would make alterations easier, would be comfy, etc.

As girls become pre-pubertal, and simple wrap of fabric around the chest, secured with snaps or Velcro, would suffice perhaps.

--Cindy

RobS · 2002-08-15 23:43:42

I have a few thoughts about children on Mars, for what they are worth.

1. One would not want to have a baby in zero gravity in space. They might choke on their own spit-up. Very small babies do not know how to swallow properly so zero gravity could be very dangerous to them. Their waste products would also float around most unpleasantly.

2. Children on Mars might not need very many vaccinations if the population were very small, because there would be few if any disease organisms. But if they returned to Earth after growing up in a nearly germ-free environment for a decade or two, they would be in severe danger even when catching a cold, because their immune systems would not have much experience with germs.

3. Once you get to the two- or three-hab level of settlement, with maybe a dozen people, I suspect children would be reasonably feasible, though not desirable. At that scale of operation there would be medical expertise and probably a larger greenhouse and a greater range of food synthesizing equipment, including soy milk, vegetable purees, etc. A two year old would probably find three habs a plenty big enough environment to explore, too. The ladder would be a big problem, of course.

4. The first children can be clothed with cut-up adult clothing. No one in this discussion has remembered what their grandparents did; remade clothing! An adult man's shirt can be cut up to clothe at least two four year olds (based on the size of my four year old, at least) and probably could supply clothing for four nerborns. Adult underwear have elastic bands that could be cannibalized to make clothing fit small ones. Buttons can be moved around. As for diapers, old socks and towels are reasonably absorbant, as are cotton undershirts; cut them up, make multiple layers, and wrap around the child. Old sheets can be reused as well. And if anyone returns to Earth, no doubt they will be prevailed upon to leave as much of their old clothing behind as possible, thereby providing a supply.

By the way, the same principle probably applies to tampons. Disposable tampons were not available on Earth a few generatins ago; women used old rags and washed them.

5. Once you have a few kids on Mars, THINK HAND ME DOWNs. If someone imports children's clothing and the kid outgrows them, you sell or give them to the next smaller kid in the colony. Same with toys. If you have a colony of a few hundred people and a few score kids, a monthly flea market where people sell items to each other, or a discount store which buys items and resells them, no doubt will spring up. Most plans for long-term travel includes the provision that arrivals can take so many kilos of personal belongings with them, and probably will have the privilege of importing a few kilos of new stuff every two years. People will import (stock up) on birthday presents this way. Others will use their personal allocation to import things they know they can sell to others (cigars, vodka, chocolate, nylons).

6. As for children going outside, there are two questions: will there be spacesuits for kids, and will it be safe to make such things. At what age can someone get a scuba diving license? 16? A spacesuit may be of similar complexity. Or maybe spacesuits for kids can be developed that can be controled by an adult nearby. If you have a colony with about twenty kids, all you need to do is send to the colony about eight or ten suits in graduated sizes; when a kid outgrows one, he gets to wear the next larger one.

7. Going outside. It is more or less safe (though it may be painful!) for an adult to decompress from an airlock very fast, run around outside holding their breath for 30-60 seconds, then run back into an airlock and fill it fast. They may not be able to hold their breath and will have a lung-full of near vacuum for a brief period of time. They may feel the water on their eyeballs vaporizing. But they won't explode; the pressure change is the same as diving thirty feet underwater, then coming back to the surface.

I certainly would not recommend this foolish prank, but it safe to predict that once a colony gets large enough, people will dare each other to do it. If someone is along with a space suit to bring inside someone who faints while outside, no one is going to die. If the colony has two airlocks about 100 feet apart, there may be outside spacesuitless races between them. And the Commander may find himself obligated to dock every participant a month's pay in punishment for doing such a silly thing! So I suspect long before there is terraforming, there will be people who will have darted outside without a suit, albeit very briefly. There may even be a secret society with the "mad outside dash" as their initiation rite.

-- RobS

Byron · 2002-08-16 07:56:23

7. Going outside. It is more or less safe (though it may be painful!) for an adult to decompress from an airlock very fast, run around outside holding their breath for 30-60 seconds, then run back into an airlock and fill it fast. They may not be able to hold their breath and will have a lung-full of near vacuum for a brief period of time. They may feel the water on their eyeballs vaporizing. But they won't explode; the pressure change is the same as diving thirty feet underwater, then coming back to the surface.
I certainly would not recommend this foolish prank, but it safe to predict that once a colony gets large enough, people will dare each other to do it. If someone is along with a space suit to bring inside someone who faints while outside, no one is going to die. If the colony has two airlocks about 100 feet apart, there may be outside spacesuitless races between them. And the Commander may find himself obligated to dock every participant a month's pay in punishment for doing such a silly thing! So I suspect long before there is terraforming, there will be people who will have darted outside without a suit, albeit very briefly. There may even be a secret society with the "mad outside dash" as their initiation rite.
-- RobS

This brings to mind a rite that is performed on a regular basis by the over-winter crew at the South Pole Station in Anarctica. It is called the 300 Club, and the requirement for membership is simple (nearly everyone becomes a member, btw) : They wait until the outside temperature drops to 100 degrees below zero F, and then fire up the station's sauna to 200 above and strip off all clothing and gather up into the hot sauna for a while. Then, when everyone's nice and toasty, they run out from the sauna and straight outside for 50-100 yards before dashing back inside...hence the name, "The 300 Club"...ouch!...LOL.

So the idea of dashing out into the near-vacuum of Mars is not quite as outlandish as it may seem at first glance...people who choose to live in overly harsh environments do have a tendency to have a few loose nuts and bolts in their heads..

B

Palomar · 2002-08-23 12:19:54

Rob: By the way, the same principle probably applies to tampons. Disposable tampons were not available on Earth a few generatins ago; women used old rags and washed them.

*Yes. I thought of this, but didn't want to be the first person to bring it up. <sheepish grin> Very cold water will clean such rags quite well. Some feminine luxuries would have to be done without, unfortunately.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-23 17:58:44

Going outside. It is more or less safe (though it may be painful! ) for an adult to decompress from an airlock very fast, run around outside holding their breath for 30-60 seconds, then run back into an airlock and fill it fast. They may not be able to hold their breath and will have a lung-full of near vacuum for a brief period of time. They may feel the water on their eyeballs vaporizing. But they won't explode; the pressure change is the same as diving thirty feet underwater, then coming back to the surface.
I certainly would not recommend this foolish prank, but it safe to predict that once a colony gets large enough, people will dare each other to do it. If someone is along with a space suit to bring inside someone who faints while outside, no one is going to die. If the colony has two airlocks about 100 feet apart, there may be outside spacesuitless races between them. And the Commander may find himself obligated to dock every participant a month's pay in punishment for doing such a silly thing! So I suspect long before there is terraforming, there will be people who will have darted outside without a suit, albeit very briefly. There may even be a secret society with the "mad outside dash" as their initiation rite.

Heh, this is an awesome idea, actually. But holding ones breath would be nearly impossible in my opinion. The pressure difference from a full breath (say, 300 milibars) and the outside (10 milibars) would be incredible. I honestly cannot imagine you being able to hold your breath, I suspect you'd break something.

C M Edwards · 2002-08-25 16:01:36

Wouldn't the bends (decompression sickness) be a problem with running around naked outside? The pressure is low enough that all gases -- not just nitrogen -- would start to come out of solution in your body.

I for one wouldn't want my kids to see me carried in with an embolism.

CME

RobS · 2002-09-19 01:19:01

Regarding having children on Mars, here's some new research about fertilization of embryos in low gravity:

http://www.space.com/news/space_pregnan … 18_wg.html

The Japanese researchers say mice embryos can be fertilized and will implant in zero gee, though the spontaneous abortion rate may be higher.

Space.com also has a nice article about the Mars Bio satellite to be launched in 2005.

-- RobS

Jenny Islander · 2004-10-10 01:51:33

Obviously, the bare bones of the Mars Direct mission is not a suitable infrastructure. But what is?
If we have enough people there long enough, children will be conceived whether the infrastructure is there or not. Unless crewmembers are sterilized, random chance will eventually see to it.
So, since they're coming anyway, what's required to raise children?
CME

For moms and infants:

1. Lots of water and good food. Nursing will be the absolute best way to feed a baby because all you need to make human milk are a healthy woman, plenty of water, and lots of good food. But the mom MUST have the water and food. There must be a reliable surplus of each, preferably from about a year before conception, for maximum health of mother and baby.

2. Dads, co-moms, aunties, uncles, mother's helpers, babysitters--in short, allomothers. Babies eat time in an unbelievable way. The colony must be able to spare the mom and at least one other person (doesn't have to be the same person) at all times. This should begin no later than the third trimester.

3. Privacy, for the sake of everyone's nerves. Colicky babies are a recipe for insanity in close quarters, and there is no way to predict the onset or end of colic. A soundproofed room where somebody can walk the floor with the baby is needed. One room per baby is probably best.

4. For hygiene, may I suggest an Alaskan frontier alternative to diapers? For very young babies who just lie there, try growing sphagnum moss, which is antibacterial and absorbent. Keep the baby in a nest of dry moss. When she poops, pees, or spits up, wash her and change the moss. No spinning, weaving, or molding required. Our midwife actually knew somebody who did this, and her kids turned out fine. Older babies could have diapers stuffed with moss.

5. Stimulation. Baby toys don't have to be fancy, but babies need to see different things, hear new voices, touch new surfaces. They get bored, and they let everybody know about it. Just changing rooms often helps. Simple toys and mobiles could be made from scraps of this and that. Also, the walls should be painted or textured.

My first kid isn't toddling yet, but I can already foresee the need for someplace where Mars toddlers can run around and yell and throw things. At this age, one assistant caregiver for every 4 kids would probably be enough.

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