Permanent residents of Mars - what would they be like physically?

Bill White · 2004-04-07 09:31:18

Cobra: Regarding your "multi-planet state" suggestion, I'm reminded of our on-going process of globalization, and how seemingly impossible bringing together of the different cultures, not to mention visible minorities. . . .

1000 years from now (5000 years?) perhaps we will debate whether to establish a unifed government over the entire solar system.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-07 15:08:10

Cobra: Regarding your "multi-planet state" suggestion, I'm reminded of our on-going process of globalization, and how seemingly impossible bringing together of the different cultures, not to mention visible minorities. . . .

They're actually opposite ends of the spectrum. Bringing people together is significantly more difficult than keeping a group from splitting apart, which is what my "solution" addresses.

1000 years from now (5000 years?) perhaps we will debate whether to establish a unifed government over the entire solar system.

Or we could proceed now in a manner that makes such an outcome the default.

Palomar · 2004-04-07 19:58:04

*As for establishing a unified gov't over the Solar System in a thousand years or so (speculated)...well, I don't mean to say I'd be opposed to it, but knowing human nature, I doubt it could be so (human unity = cat herding).

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Cobra, will you please expand on this?: "it's a very fascist idea on some levels, mandatory service to the state and all." How so, to what extent, why? Thanks.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-08 15:30:58

*As for establishing a unified gov't over the Solar System in a thousand years or so (speculated)...well, I don't mean to say I'd be opposed to it, but knowing human nature, I doubt it could be so (human unity = cat herding).
--Cindy
::EDIT:: Cobra, will you please expand on this?: "it's a very fascist idea on some levels, mandatory service to the state and all." How so, to what extent, why? Thanks.

So as not to hijack the thread (any further than has been done already) this is the short version. Anyone not interested in this point, by all means skip it.

Fascist are all about the state, and specifically service to the state. In idealogic terms it's not even so much an "authoritarian" arrangement as it is the people collectively working for the greater good of all. In practice it never really worked out that way, but that was idea. The ideal of such "service" could take many forms, though the most common were "labor battalions" of one form or another, and of course military or para-military duties.

But it wasn't just the obvious product of such "service" that was important, just as significant was the cultural impact. On one level it was a way of building roads and kicking the neighbors' butts, but on a deeper level it's a way of keeping the populace physically fit, instilling a solid work ethic and respect for manual labor, and creating a unified cultural and political entity. Getting all the young men in the country to put on a uniform and dig an irrigation ditch isn't just about directing water.

Jumping out of the 20th century, if we want to maintain a unified political/cultural/biologic identity when humanity moves to other worlds there are lessons to be learned from this. Does it mean we have to goose-step, start wars and hail the Duce?, Of course not. But sometimes a big lump of filthy clay has gold in the middle.

dicktice · 2004-04-08 18:06:06

While all the people are busy doing all this, what are the authorities up to . . . hm-mm?

Palomar · 2004-04-08 18:26:54

While all the people are busy doing all this, what are the authorities up to . . . hm-mm?

*Lol... :laugh:

Yep, that's -the- question.

Someone's always itching to take advantage. Distract (and keep distracted) enough people, and it gets just that much easier to take advantage.

I'm not implying this is the desire of anyone's stated political opinions here, btw. Just commenting.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-08 19:21:23

While all the people are busy doing all this, what are the authorities up to . . . hm-mm?

Indeed, and therein lies the problem.

However, in a representative republic such issues are lessened, though not eliminated. it's possible to take the best aspects of various (conflicting) political philosphies and fuse them, discarding the crap. What a big mound that would be...

And some of our modern Western ideas would be in the pile too.

Someone's always itching to take advantage. Distract (and keep distracted) enough people, and it gets just that much easier to take advantage.
I'm not implying this is the desire of anyone's stated political opinions here, btw. Just commenting.
--Cindy

:hm: It's the black shirt, isn't it.

Palomar · 2004-04-08 19:56:47

:hm: It's the black shirt, isn't it.

*Not at all, Mr. Darvin. It's the suit you're wearing.

And the fact that my tribble began trilling like mad...

--Cindy :laugh:

(Sorry, couldn't resist...now back on topic)

clark · 2004-04-09 10:03:23

Fascist are all about the state, and specifically service to the state. In idealogic terms it's not even so much an "authoritarian" arrangement as it is the people collectively working for the greater good of all.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as the State is worth working for. And that is the challenge.

Dig all the ditches you want, but if it's too make it easier to handle the run off of the dead and butchered lesser-people, then there are some fundamental problems with this arrangement.

don't get me wrong, I'm just pointing out one side of the extreme. I used to be a boy scout, there's a fascist organization if ever there was one. Three fingered salute, uniforms, digging ditches (just to move up in rank!... rank!). Little boys on forced marches, doing good deeds (define a good deed... see where that might lead), reciting our 'pledges' and 'motto'. Good times, good times. :laugh:

I'm not so certain there is a need for a solar system wide government that unites all humanity. You need government to regulate the relationships among individuals becuase their individuals actions and choices may affect other individuals. In space, there is a lot of space, so unless there is an issue of mty actions affecing your choices, there is little need for anything other than a local government (however defined).

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-10 20:09:06

Nothing wrong with that, as long as the State is worth working for. And that is the challenge.
Dig all the ditches you want, but if it's too make it easier to handle the run off of the dead and butchered lesser-people, then there are some fundamental problems with this arrangement.

That is another issue that is too often overlooked, there's far too much focus on the "form" of a government than the "substance." The character of a state, whether it is "worth working for" to use your words, depends more on the people who make up the government than on the method by which they get the job.

I'm not so certain there is a need for a solar system wide government that unites all humanity. You need government to regulate the relationships among individuals becuase their individuals actions and choices may affect other individuals. In space, there is a lot of space, so unless there is an issue of mty actions affecing your choices, there is little need for anything other than a local government (however defined).

There are issues that warrant an overall authority, though relegated to certain specific and clearly defined roles. Currency, for example.

Unless you want to concede on the gold question.

What about slaves? Why can't the Marineris colonists have them if the local government says it's okay? Their actions affect another's choices you say? On what authority do you suggest we remedy the situation?

Big, but limited government may be the path we have no choice but to take.

So, to get back on topic, I'm gonna say that the permanent residents of Mars will look just like us, only a lot more of them will be wearing the same clothes. To boldly go... because we have to.

dicktice · 2004-04-11 12:19:26

You wrote: "So, to get back on topic, I'm gonna say that the permanent residents of Mars will look just like us, only a lot more of them will be wearing the same clothes. To boldly go... because we have to."
Nice to get back to the topic, which was to imagine how humans on Mars might physically (as well as mentally, I might add) change, after several generations of living there. It's not conceivable that there would be no physical change, as a result of contending with eventually agreed upon atmospheric constituent partial pressures, lighter gravity, and the lifestyle resulting in order to adapt to these drastically different conditions from Earth. A variable population of interplanetary, microgravity-tolerant individuals might even contribute to the mix.
Same clothes? Well--here on Earth--over the past three hundred years (what's that, in generations?) leaves a lot to choose from! I'm reminded of the saying that even the emperor puts his pants on one leg at a time, and I don't imagine pants will disappear as such. But, if we are to romp about on the surface routinely, some drastic changes in pressure-suit attire will be necessary. Not to be too facetious, I hope, imagine puffed pantaloons, such as the 17th Century guys wore, but this time out of necessary as all-day toilets. I know, tasteless--I'm just trying to make the point that clothes will change. (I just re-read what you wrote: Did you mean more of the people on mars will dress alike than on Earth. Natch, since they'll all be on the same "country," but that would seem too obvious.)
Anyway, physical changes must occur too, since they do so here, to advantage individules' survival. Not permament evolutionary changes--except by fortunate mutations within a few generations--but height, weight, bone and muscle densities, lungs and chest development, arms and legs. I was serious, when I prophesied flapping-wing suits, and therefore broad shoulders and thin legs. Swimming, of course, would be possible, but probably not more challenging than here. But, since surface tension remains the same, walking or running on water may be feasible, which might take care of the legs, after all. Just a thought.
Darker skinned individules must surely have better survivabilities, off-Earth, away from atmospheric ozone protection from interplanetary radiation.
Eating Mars-produced foodstuffs also would result in different constitutions, like milk intolerance in certain communities on Earth. The synthetic foods, predicted in so much of the early science fiction, may become the norm wherein any traditional taste and texture would be profitable to develop, in the absence of the real thing. Digestible, flatulant-free foods would be most desirable, for reasons of pressure-suit comfort and hytgene--resulting in many natural foods becomming indigestible and/or repugnant to human Martians.
Okay, that's enough, I hoped to convince you that changes are to expected. But what--seriously--might the experts anongst you in your various fields of expertise suggest?

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-12 16:25:19

Nice to get back to the topic, which was to imagine how humans on Mars might physically (as well as mentally, I might add) change, after several generations of living there. It's not conceivable that there would be no physical change, as a result of contending with eventually agreed upon atmospheric constituent partial pressures, lighter gravity, and the lifestyle resulting in order to adapt to these drastically different conditions from Earth. A variable population of interplanetary, microgravity-tolerant individuals might even contribute to the mix.

That was precisely my point, that changes (perhaps drastic ones) will occur unless we do something to prevent it. It comes down a a question of whether we want to let it happen.

Same clothes? Well--here on Earth--over the past three hundred years (what's that, in generations?) leaves a lot to choose from! ....

Actually, I was referring to uniforms. A reference to my admittedly less than perfect plan for offsetting changes to the species.

But I digress, asuuming we do nothing, what happens?We'll figure out if it's acceptable later.

Trebuchet · 2004-04-26 04:19:37

If it were left up to me, I'd say let 'em diverge. Why stick all your eggs in the basket known as contemporary humanity? We should just throw modern society at Mars and see what sticks.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-12 14:03:17

an old topic worth considering

New drug shows potential to aid astronauts during future missions to moon and Mars
https://www.space.com/drug-iss-microgra … -moon-mars

promising results of combatting microgravity bone loss in mice.

also the 'Cyborg' half man half machine and Artificial Intelligence teacher is becoming a real fellow colonist or companion soon

The first to change genetically might be the smaller animals with short life span, maybe Robots could watch these animals, take constant data which monitors the evolution and mutations might first be seen in Shell-fish Shrimp, Pollinator Flies, Bees, Butterfly, Cicadas, the fruit fly’s average life span at from 37 days getting sicker to 15 days or maybe made stronger to about 70 days. the Common Mouse, Mosquitofish, Betta Fish or Siamese Fighting Fish, Hedgehogs, Australian marsupial or short-tailed opossum from South America, Hamsters, Dwarf Pygmy, the Door Mouse, Gerbils 2-4 years, its possible animal breeding patterns might change with long winter and long summer and conditions inside the Biodomes or Biospheres.

On Earth we can see the conditions and personality needed to do good research in Antarctica, go on a long journey up the highest mountains or stay underwater in a Submarine. If people are not screened there could be issues, which contribute to the decline of people's mental health and physical health.

but that could be closer related to Earth "analogue" discussions, residents of Mars might have more in common with Earth than a group of people living in a city on the Moon.

some other news

A comprehensive blueprint for the settlement of Mars
https://phys.org/news/2023-10-comprehen … -mars.html

Evolution of a plan
Beyond exploration, many proposals have been made since the dawn of the Space Age to transform Mars into a second home for humanity. Some of these proposals have involved geological engineering (aka "terraforming") to make Mars habitable for terrestrial organisms. What's more, the history of proposals has reflected the history of exploration and our growing understanding of the Red Planet. Other factors include technological advancement, scientific discoveries, and socio-economic and political developments. As Nuekart explained via email, the earliest ideas were largely embodied in science fiction.
Examples include H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoon Series, Ray Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles, Arthur C. Clarke's The Sands of Mars, and Robert A. Heinlein's Red Planet and Stranger in a Strange Land. These books depicted Mars with limited scientific accuracy and reflected popular perceptions about Mars at the time. This included Schiaperelli's maps (that included Martian "canals") and Percival Lowell's speculations about a Martian civilization. They were also influenced by political events on Earth, which contributed to feelings of xenophobia, the decline of civilization, and environmental concerns.
However, things began to change with the dawn of the Space Age, where robotic exploration dispelled old myths and led to major discoveries about Mars's past and present. As Nuekart explained:
"The latter part of the 20th century and early 21st century marked the deployment of various robotic missions to Mars, such as the Viking program, rovers like Spirit, Opportunity, and Curiosity, and orbiters like Mars Odyssey. These missions provided invaluable Martian geology, climate, and potential habitability data. Post-2000, discussions about Mars have increasingly leaned towards human exploration and settlement.
"The strategies entailed harnessing in-situ resources, understanding potential health implications for astronauts, and developing the necessary technologies to support human life on Mars. The recent era has also seen the burgeoning involvement of private entities, such as SpaceX, in Martian settlement plans. Elon Musk's vision of making humanity a multi-planetary species, with particular emphasis on establishing a city on Mars, has introduced new perspectives and significant investment in Mars-related technologies."
Today, more space agencies are contributing to the exploration of Mars than ever before. Whereas the 20th century saw only NASA and the Soviet Union send missions to the Red Planet, the past two decades have seen new missions sent by the European Union, China, India, and the United Arab Emirates. This has contributed to a growing recognition that Martian settlement will likely be an international endeavor based on partnerships and cooperation rather than competition. And as Nuekert adds, our growing sense of climate awareness has had a noticeable effect on planning:
"Recent plans have emphasized sustainability more, ensuring that Martian settlements are self-sufficient and have minimal reliance on resupply from Earth. This includes considering closed-loop life support systems, in-situ resource utilization, and psychological sustainability for inhabitants. Martian settlement plans have evolved through these stages from speculative and primarily science-fiction-based ideas to more concrete, scientifically informed, and technologically feasible concepts rooted in actual data and evolving technological capabilities. As we progress, plans continue to become more refined, pragmatic, and inclusive of various scientific, social, and ethical considerations."

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-12 14:10:26)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-05 04:08:01

Without the weather extremes, radiation and toxins they will have lungs of cigarette smokers and we can already see what conditions do on Earth. Black lung disease (BLD), also known as coal-mine dust lung disease is a human killer, if they make artificial Lakes and filter a Biosphere and deal with toxic dust, perchlorates - chlorine-containing chemical compounds filter them out and make a Lake in a dome then sometimes it could be beneficial salty air the breathed helped keep their lungs free from infection and allergies, the desert sands can be bad Silicosis is a form of occupational lung disease caused by inhalation of crystalline silica dust.

Mechanisms underlying the health effects of desert sand dust
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 2021004153

Cancer warning after big rise in people smoking pipes, shisha and cigars in UK
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 … sha-cigars

New Zealand repeals world-first smoking ban passed by Jacinda Ardern
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/zealand-repea … 26606.html

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#26 2004-04-07 09:31:18

Re: Permanent residents of Mars - what would they be like physically?

#27 2004-04-07 15:08:10

Re: Permanent residents of Mars - what would they be like physically?

#28 2004-04-07 19:58:04

Re: Permanent residents of Mars - what would they be like physically?

#29 2004-04-08 15:30:58

Re: Permanent residents of Mars - what would they be like physically?

#30 2004-04-08 18:06:06

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#31 2004-04-08 18:26:54

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#32 2004-04-08 19:21:23

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#33 2004-04-08 19:56:47

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#34 2004-04-09 10:03:23

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#35 2004-04-10 20:09:06

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#36 2004-04-11 12:19:26

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#37 2004-04-12 16:25:19

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#38 2004-04-26 04:19:37

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#39 2023-12-12 14:03:17

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#40 2024-03-05 04:08:01

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