Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

SBird · 2004-04-01 13:27:16

Robert - my apologies if I came across as a bit harsh in that last message, I reread my last message and I came across as more negative than I intended. I just wanted to make it clear that a 10 year timeline for a terraforming bacterium is just not possible by any stretch of the imagination. In a very optimistic timeline, Venter could have his artificial tesbed bacterium working reliably in 8-10 years. A martian terraforming bacterium would than realistically be 20-30 years out depending on the levels of peroxides in the soil. A Venutian terraforming microbe - who knows - not anytime in under 30 years for certain. Mature nanotech would push those numbers up but it's highly unlikely that nanotech will be mature enough to help out in that sort of time scale.

As for the ion drive - this sounds intriguing. I can appreciate your problems - my research is highly interdisciplinary which basically translates to - "Wow, that sounds great - someone else should really be funding that." - from the funding agencies. Fortunately, we were able to get DOD support. I'm not exactly sure *why* they think it's good for themselves to fund our stuff since it has no practical military application at this point but it pays my rent so I won't complain.

Have you considered looking for a private company to partner with? I know that there's a few mid-level companies that do ion thruster work for satellite station keeping that might be interested in going higher thrust. Heck, what's the possibility of working with Boeing? I'd make sure to get a good lawyer to draw up a bulletproof NDA before taking an idea to them but it might be your best bet.

Also, you might look at DOD funding, I'm not sure how they handle non-US citizenship but they are quite scientifically literate and tend to be less bone-headed than some of the civilian funding agencies. DARPA might be a good bet since they are more willing to take chances on new ideas.

Chat - If you're planning on doing a physics paper, just write it and send it to the LANL paper archive. It's free and open to anyone. If people don't like it, they'll say so. It's a great, open working environment.
If Strange Brew has taught me anything about Canada, they're planning on using flying dogs to get to Mars.

chat · 2004-04-01 17:54:59

Sbird,

Thank you for the tip on publishing.
I will have to spend a bit of time trying to get my idea into words so people can point nasty fingers at me.
Hope that was an index finger that person was pointing *lol*

As you say though, worse thing it can be is totally wrong, and at the least give a new perspective to what might be happening.

And no one can really harm my scientific career

SBird · 2004-04-01 19:34:19

Well, the nice thing is that a single paper won't ruin your career, such as it is or isn't. Everyone publishes lemons from time to time and that's understood. It only if someone has a history of publishing nonsense that people start ignoring them.

The hard part in getting started is to get noticed. Don't expect to see too much response from a first paper.

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-01 23:36:17

Step One
Atmosphere Pump
Step Two
Slam with Giant Iceball
Step Three
Stir with biology for two centuries
Step Four
Put a moon in orbit and viola!

You have a Margar...Terraformed Venus.

MarsDog · 2004-04-02 04:37:32

I favor large number of reflective balloons in the upper Venutian atmosphere.
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Solar radiation would be deflected, while allowing for radiation from Venus to escape
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Glass balloons have been floated here on Earth and would float better inside the denser Venutian atmosphere.

chat · 2004-04-02 04:49:04

~Eternal~,

I thought along the lines of creating a moon from the bulk of Venus waste atmosphere, or at least using it to block sunlight.

Ala your pump idea.

In the near future this idea might have quite a bit or merit.

probably not beyond the realms of near future science to create nanotubes that can withstand the leading edge of the atmosphere and pump it to a different elevation.

Still a very big technical challenge though.
And a very big % of the atmosphere needs to be moved to have any real impact.

some catalyst might have a much bigger effect at Venus,
a few thousand or million tons to alter the chemistry at Venus.

Water is a must, but hydrogen without the oxygen is much better.
Any reaction that locks away oxygen and creates h20 is a bonus at Venus.

I still question the usefulness of a direct impact on Venus with ice comets or ice asteroids.
Not for the reason that Venus doesn't need the water, simply for the fact of the disruption it will cause on the planet, and especially in the atmosphere.

A huge release of water in the atmosphere on Venus will probably make for a much warmer place.
And the impactors debris, carbon release and friction in the atmosphere contributes to making things warmer.

In the long term the ice impact will be great for the bacteria release, but how long after a big impact before things settle down.
And will that new balance be even worse than before you started.

In theory earth has gone through a few 20km impacts that took 1000's of years to settle back into balance.
And a few times probably came close to altering earth beyond repair.

Probably better to get a big snowball near Venus, blow it up in orbit and let the pieces fall where they may.
No crust beating impact that way.

Got to be a way to collect the hydrogen our belchy yellow star throws away all the time to help Venus lock its own atmosphere away.
If we could collect 4 or 5 times what the planet already receives, then it could do all the work for us.
its the way to go it think.
And saves the giant moving bill from rent an asteroid mover
Or even Asteroids R Us.

chat · 2004-04-02 05:07:47

SBird,

Any tips on doing a paper?
one page? many pages? supported by math?
Or simply general idea, and let the calculators fall where they may?

SBird · 2004-04-02 10:33:25

MarsDog - That relective balloon idea is a really good one, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it. It would be much easier to make a significant number of shiny balloons to increase the planetary albedo than to build a solar shade. The high atmospheric density does make things easier as well.

everyone - for those who keep posting 'a couple hundred years' for microbes to convert Venus' atmosphere, I've got bad news for you. There are about 10^20 metric tons of carbon in the Venutian atmosphere that need converting. The ENTIRE Earth's ecosystem is capable of moving about 10^10 metric tons of carbon a year. That is if you took the entire Earthly ecosystem and moved it to Venus after bioengineeringit to work there, provided all the ample nutrients that it has here, it would take 10 billion years to terraform Venus. 200 years is NOT a realistic figure. People on this tread have got to try and realize what they are talking about when they blithely refer to the conversion of 10^20 MT of material as if it's a weekend project.

chat - given the present composition of the Venutian atmosphere, the big problem is where to get excess hydrogen. A catalyst can only work when it's got something to work on. Adding water from cometray impacts can be useful but the importation of pure hydrogen would be better. I'm not sure how much solar wind hydrogen impacts the planet. I'm guessing that it's a trivial quantity but it's worth looking into as it's a 'free' source of the material.

As for writing a paper, I'd concentrate on the math. The archive I mentioned is a physics paper archive. I've never published there or accessit too much since I'm not a physicist. However, if the physicists I know are any indication, they'll go straight to the math and concentrate on that. Don't expect a huge response, if your paper's good, you'll probably get a few interested people but that's about it. There's a lot of traffic on that archive and it's easy to get lost in the overall noise. If your theory is at all novel and different from the party line, you can expect to have many years of work ahead of you in publishing papers before the mainstream will start to pay attention.

kippy · 2004-04-02 11:56:56

given the present composition of the Venutian atmosphere, the big problem is where to get excess hydrogen. A catalyst can only work when it's got something to work on. Adding water from cometray impacts can be useful but the importation of pure hydrogen would be better. I'm not sure how much solar wind hydrogen impacts the planet. I'm guessing that it's a trivial quantity but it's worth looking into as it's a 'free' source of the material.

Not to beat a dead horse but the gas giants look like the place to get it. I know importing gasses is unpopular but a little hydrogen goes a long way. Uranus (yes, ha ha) has a hydrogen atmosphere and an escape velocity of something like 21km/s. Is it feasable to send a tanker aerobreaking through the upper atmosphere to fill up and then back down to Venus for a drop-off? It would still take a while but I'm betting that one tanker of H2 would be more than a year's worth of solar H2.

SBird · 2004-04-02 13:11:34

H2 shipping from a gas giant is probably the only way to go. I imagine that Uranus, with its much lower escape velocity might be doable. Again, this ain'ta weekend project but its starts to edge into the realm of the possible with feasible technology.

However, once you got that H2 into the atmosphere, all it takes is a spark and the whole atmosphere will combust in a big fireball into water and carbon soot. Now, you've got oceans worth of water. All told, there's enough water potential to make about 1/8th the water in our oceans. Put enough reflective balloons into the atmosphere and youd get a fairly livable planet. The slow rotation is something you're unlikely to be able to do anything about. However, the high levels of H2O vapor in the atmosphere will produce enough of a greenhouse effect to keep the night side from getting too cold. I imaging the carbon reserves being turned into artificial floating continents and huge expanses of floating plants putting across the oceans to stay on the daylight side, soaking up energy.

I'm gonna stick with a 1000 year timeline for such a project and that's being optimistic. All things considered, though, that's awfully fast. 1000 years is an eyeblink in planetary timescales.

chat · 2004-04-02 14:47:49

Sbird,

I agree with the sort of 1000 year time line with current technology or slightly advanced from todays.
As you say though 1000 years is nothing for a planet.

Science has a real way of altering time lines though, and an invention of an anti gravity machine would alter that time line to decades, and fusion to maybe 100 years.

Free hydrogen from the suns every day activities seems a good semi low tech helper.
As you say though, how much? and how to collect more?are the numbers to low to be of any real help?

Probably need someone working on hydrogen collection in space somewhere to get a decent answer if that is feasible.

Gave the catalyst idea some more thought, probably a useful idea for fine tuning later, but initially not of much value.
Hydrogen seems the only initial candidate as a catalyst.

Kippy,

It looks like Uranus is the best choice right now.
And I'm not pleased about that, rumor has it that you eat way to much chile, so sulphur contamination is sure to be present *lol*

In seriousness though it does look like Uranus is the best candidate other than separating hydrogen from orbiting comets or ice asteroids, or figuring a way to catch if from the suns waste belching.
Maybe a combination of all of the above.

I bet the best place to get hydrogen for venus is from earth.
We already have a space ship that can make it there no problem, and the residents have way more than they need.

I always look for a today solution
Something we could do now if we stretched the imagination, then it would be simple in 50 years.

So far nothing seems realistic right now.
Close but no cigar sort of thing.

Great fun to try though

kippy · 2004-04-02 16:31:48

Getting H2 from Earth or comets involves cracking water. That means energy. Another thing to consider is that you end up with a bunch of oxygen that you need to do something with. I guess you could react it with the 3 bars of nitrogen to make the Venus the happiest planet in the system.

Also, remember that sending H2 form Earth means that we'll have to give up a sizable percentage of our water. I don't think too many people will like that idea.

One thing to note; when I ran my numbers, Venus ended up with about 10% of the water on earth if you turn the atmosphere to water with hydrogen. you'll still need s shade of some kind to keep the sun side from frying and the moisture in the atmosphere from keeping the greenhouse effect going. There would be plenty of exposed land to live on since the water would of course settle. The poles would probably be the first habitable parts.

SBird · 2004-04-02 17:14:59

I got slightly more water, about 12% but close enough. Unfortunately, all the topographic maps of Venus fail to give a height legend. Overall, the average ocean depth should be about 1000 feet.

chat · 2004-04-02 17:59:13

Kippy,

*lol* when they start cracking the water at Venus I'm going there
It is sure to be a laugh and a 1/2

Those darn water hogs on earth, never willing to give up a few drops to help anyone

I guess if you used solar panels as the power source to crack the water, and used the oxygen as rocket fuel to get the asteroid to its location at Venus.
It might be a cheap way to move it around, and get rid of the oxygen at the same time.
And it makes for a cheapish asteroid pickup vehicle.

It might be a way for us to travel around in the outer solar system, even to Uranus for hydrogen and back.

I agree that the Venus spin is still a bit of trouble, even fully teraformed it will still be bake and chill.

Maybe Canadians live on the dark side, and move to the left 1000ft a day.
And everyone else on the sunny side with like 80 sunblock :0
Canadians can do three months of dark easy, and cold is no problem *lol*
Just remember to tell us when to move left, we are going to be drinking alot, and we wont have a clue how long a day is or care.

I guess if its fully teraformed a globe encircling tube that transfers atmosphere from hot to cold side.
And the main transport system on Venus.
Bet that will take a while to build

MarsDog · 2004-04-03 04:00:21

If all the Sun's energy, falling on Venus, were converted to rotation, it would take 5,000 years to equal Earth's rotation.
A thousand kilometer asteroid at, 30,000 mph, could do it in a shorter time.
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For quick results, no choice but to look for a giant collider.

chat · 2004-04-03 04:46:47

MarsDog,

With a big impactor you sure could add some heavy duty energy to Venus.

Even if you could double the spin rate it would help a lot.
One of those low angle impacts seems the best.

Not sure how it would affect the planet, but it gets the water in place fast.
I guess you could make Venus more hostile than it is now, but not much.

The balloons idea is a good one.
Hydrogen filed balloons would stay high in the atmosphere for ages until the container decayed.

May as well get 2 uses for the hydrogen, and the balloons

The balloons are a great low tech idea to cool the place.

SBird · 2004-04-03 20:12:02

Of course, you do realize the energy levels you are talking about? The impact energy alone, not to mention the stresses from the sudden chance in angular momentum, would completely shatter the crust. You'd have to wait thousands of years for the surface to resolidify.

I did a rough calculation that showed that the energy required to boost the rotation rate of Venus would be sufficient to raise the average temperature of the entire panetary mass by 150 K. That may not sound like much but remeber that the energy will be unequally distributed. The vast majority will be dissapated in the crust facing the impact, proably vaporizing half of the crust in one blow and reducing the rest to small isalnds of rock floating on a sea of magma.

chat · 2004-04-04 05:06:09

sbird,

I'm in the same camp about big asteroid collisions.
In some respects they are a good thing, but i also believe thumping a planet with enough force to do any good will also do a lot of bad.
Even smallish impacts of say 20km will be quite disruptive to any planet.

Making a Venus that has 10% more water and spins 50%faster with 25% more heat, and takes 1000+ years to settle back down doesn't seem like the right path for teraforming.

All you might end up with is a much thicker atmosphere on a faster spinning magma planet.

I think spinning up Venus requires a more subtle way.
And that might be a very long term effort if it's even something that could be or should be done.

Thump and wait works for Venus, but don't expect to start any teraforming for at least 1000 years after the collision.

REB · 2004-04-07 12:30:30

Hi there. I am an Amateur Science Fiction Writer. I have written 6 books, two of which deals with terraforming Venus and Mars. I am starting another book where I terraform Venus in a new way I had never considered before, or hear anyone else suggest.

Venus has 3 main problems.
1. Too much atmosphere
2. Too much solar radiation
3. Rotates to slow.

As you know, Venus has way too much carbon dioxide, but did you know that Venus has about three times as much Nitrogen as the Earth (It only makes up about 2.5-3% of Venus atmosphere).

First, let’s get rid of most of that Carbon Dioxide. If we could mine the hydrogen from a gas giant, particularly one whose gravity well is not too strong (Jupiter is 2.6 G’s, Saturn and Neptune are 1.1 G’s and Uranus is 0.9 G’s, so lets go with Uranus or Saturn) we could ship it in huge tankers to Venus.

Once in orbit around Venus, we start processing her atmosphere. We split the Carbon Dioxide into Carbon and Oxygen. We combine the Oxygen with the Hydrogen we got from Saturn (or Uranus) to make water and energy. (We’ll save some of the oxygen to give Venus a breathable atmosphere) The leftover Carbon could be used to build tankers or other things, or sent back to Venus. We’ll leave a tiny percentage of the Carbon Dioxide alone to return to the planet’s atmosphere.

Any Nitrogen we remove will be stored in tankers bound for Mars, until over half of the Nitrogen is removed from Venus atmosphere.

The Sulfuric Acid clouds would be converted to Sulfur and water.

Problem 1 is taken care of. Venus now has a breathable atmosphere, suitable for plants and animals, plus vast oceans of water.

Problem 2 and 3 could be solved with the same solution. In my earlier works, I had used mirrors and solar shades to control the amount of solar radiation reaching any spot on Venus.

I found a better way. Build a sphere around Venus (The ends are open like a round, pitted olive) The outside of the sphere lets sunlight in. The whole surface is this way. It is covered with tiny little holes.

The sunlight is channeled through fiber optics to an area on the inside of the sphere (the side facing Venus) and exits where the light then travels to the planet. Only part of the inside of the sphere lets sunlight out towards the surface. All of the fiber optics lead to this area. Any extra solar radiation can be used for energy.

This sphere rotates once every twenty four hours, and thus, so does the exit point of the sunlight, giving Venus a 24 hour day.

The two only problems with this approach is with approach, is ships landing on Venus, and space debris hitting the sphere.

Ships would have to enter through the holes in the sphere poles. These holes would be large enough to allow the Earths Moon to pass through (Not that we would want to do that).

For the other problem, space debris would have to be monitored and removed as needed. Any holes knocked through the sphere by debris would be quickly repaired by robots whose only function was to do just that.

Let me share with you my dream method of terraforming Venus. If I had the power to terraform Venus any way I wished, here is what I would do. Move Venus in a 1 Au orbit from the Sun that doesn’t threaten the Earth. Perhaps place here on the opposite side of the Sun as the Earth. Convert her air like I discussed above. Speed up her rotation to 24 hours, and make Mercury her moon (Put it far enough away so that it’s gravity towards Venus is comparable to the Moon’s gravity on the Earth).

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2022-03-21 10:14:31)

RobertDyck · 2004-04-07 14:35:31

Yes, Venus has roughly 3 times as much nitrogen in its atmosphere as Earth, but you'll need that nitrogen for an active biosphere. If you want plants and animals growing across the surface of the planet, those living things will need nitrogen for protein. The amount of nitrogen on Venus now is just about perfect. If you plan to harvest hydrogen from a gas giant anyway, why not harvest nitrogen as well? I believe the gas giants have ammonia (NH3). That would be perfect for Mars.

As for changing the rotation rate of Venus, why? We don't need a duplicate of Earth; we just need something suitable for life. I think the concern has to be how the slow rotation rate will affect weather, and how that effect can be made tolerable. Putting a shell around the planet is more practical than changing its rotation rate. It's still more practical to put drapes on your bedroom windows. Sunlight 24 hours a day in the summer, and darkness 24 hours a day in winter would make for a very productive growing season. The concern is just surface temperature and wind.

chat · 2004-04-07 16:11:48

Welcome REB,

It sounds like a very big technical challenge.

Simple is always better.

Getting hydrogen from the gas giants seems on the surface to be the ideal solution, but how many trips will it take? and what do you use for fuel to go get it? and even worse, what to use for fuel to bring it back.

Going to the k belt for water asteroids at least gives you fuel for the return trip by splitting the water into hydrogen, and oxygen for fuel.
And probably enough O2 left over for a return trip to go get another.

Might be a cheaper way to do the same thing, and no mentionable escape velocity to worry about with asteroids.

Roberts low tech curtains idea i think is a good one.
In far northern Canada curtains are a must.

And he has some good points about what the speed of the spin at Venus would be on the climate without doing anything.
If it isn't to harsh then why bother trying to alter it.

I'm also leaning towards another problem at Venus after it is teraformed.
Permanent rain non stop planet wide.
It seems to be right about where it needs to be for that to happen.
The Rain planet ?

Might be a good book title

REB · 2004-04-08 07:30:57

Thank you for your input, Chat and Robert.

With regards to Venus’ Nitrogen, I don’t know if any is bound to the surface rocks. It has probably all been cooked out. I believe Venus and the Earth have about the same Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen, but most of Earth’s is in the rocks soil and oceans.

Robert, you may be right. Venus may need to hang onto all of its Nitrogen. Mars can get their own. :laugh: Still, we would want to remove over half of it from the atmosphere. I guess it could be stored until terraformation was near and end, and then added to the soil in the form of nitrates.

About Venus’ rotation. Plants could probably adapt to Venus’ slow rotation, but wouldn’t the day side boil and the night side freeze. Of course, here in Houston, in August when it is 100 degrees Fahrenheit, people rarely venture out (We go from our climate controlled vehicles to our climate controlled buildings. It is almost like a space colony in and alien environment)

Chat, the tankers for the hydrogen could be built from one of the captured asteroid moons that most gas giants seem to have. The fuel could also be mined from the gas giant’s atmosphere, or one of it’s icy moons. I have thought of several ways to mine hydrogen, none of which we have the technology to do at this moment. These tankers could be huge, but even so, it would take a constant flow of them for many years to supply all the hydrogen. If it could be an automated process, then us humans could set it up and let it go.

Speaking of technology, what we need are self reproducing robots. Imagine sending a small group of robots (Nanobots that work on the molecule level would be perfect) to a world such as a moon or asteroid. Using the resources of the moon or asteroid, this first wave would begin building other robots for various tasks. Eventually you could have millions of various robots doing various task, like building tankers, or building equipment for cracking Carbon Dioxide. Basically, they could build whatever we needed, using the moon or asteroids resources (Mercury might also be a good source of resources). They would do most of the work. The cost to the Earth would be the initial investment of the first wave of robots (Terrabots, I call them).

I don’t see this kind of technology appearing for a long time. Such technology could be used right now to explore space and build space colonies on other worlds.

I do believe we could do a partial terraformation of Mars in a human lifetime. By that, I mean make Mars where water is liquid on the surface, plants can grow, and people can walk on the surface in regular cloths with nothing more than a SCUBA like device for oxygen. In other word, Mars would have a thick Carbon Dioxide atmosphere plants would love, and some kind of UV radiation protection (Like Earth’s ozone layer).

Venus, on the other hand, will probably take many lifetimes to terraform.

When the human race finally gets around to terraforming Venus, I am sure they’ll use techniques we never considered. One thing I have learned, it is hard to predict the future.

And who knows, maybe instead of terraforming other worlds, future generations will use genetic engineering to adapt humans for alien environments.

REB · 2004-04-08 10:54:16

Kippy, you came up with the same idea I did about using a gas giant's hydrogen to turn Venus' CO2 into water and carbon.

I hate wasting resources, and everyone kept saying, lets blast Venus atmosphere away, or lets turn it into Oxygen. Blasting it away is a waste of resources (The Solar System does have finite resources and it is a long way to the next system), and a pure oxygen atmosphere would not be stable, so I thought, "Lets turn it to water." I have been pushing the idea on several space boards across the internet, but not too many people have taken it seriously. It is nice to see someone else has the same idea.

I found this site yesterday. I have been reading through some of the older post and I saw yours being the first to mention this. I have been posting on habitablezone for years, but I like this site better. I think I’ll stick around a while.

kippy · 2004-04-08 12:39:12

REB,

Thanks for the props. I’m also convinced that bringing H2 to Venus is the only way to go. If you grab a comet from far out, you will still need to have energy to split the water to use as a fuel. Plus, you have a lot of waste oxygen to deal with. Getting hydrogen from one of the outer gas giants won’t be easy but I’m sure that if intelligent uses of gravity slingshots are used, you can conserve a lot of energy. I’m more concerned about what kind of craft would be up to the task and how many trips it would take. Some breakthroughs in material science could shore up some of those issues.

As for the day length/spin problem I think crafty use of mirrors is probably the way to go for the first few thousand years. As someone posted before, it would take 5000 years of spinning if you were able to harness all of the incoming sunlight. So that’s a distant goal at best. However you could fake it if your front shade could cycle between dark and translucent on a 24 hour cycle. Likewise, you could have mirrors at some modified L2 points to act as some bright “full moons”. Those could shine on a 24 hour cycle too. Hell, you could probably work it so that day and night were planet-wide. Such mirrors would have to be M2P2 craft with charged dust suspended in them.

I don’t know about that planetary shell idea. You really only need to shield the light coming on from the front. Why use thousands of miles of fiber optics if you can redirect the light with mirrors and no medium but space?

chat · 2004-04-08 17:35:25

REB,

Your welcome.
And you are correct about this board.
Any idea will be debated by many people, and sometimes even help the original person posting modify an idea.

I agree that Venus is a long term project that is well beyond our technology right now.

And you are probably correct that when the times comes to actually teraform Venus it wont be what any of us expect.

Hydrogen seems to be a must for Venus.
I do like the idea of the stop at the ice worlds near the gas giants for fuel before the big scoop.

Nanotech will probably see the use of machines that make machines, so that idea also seems real, and in the not to distant future.

And like you say the less the initial work the better.

A couple of off the wall ideas I've had for Venus are.
A huge reflector adding more heat to Venus.
At what point does it get to hot to hold its atmosphere.
(not my favorite) i think its better to use everything on Venus.
But it might be a tool.

A total sun block.
What happens if Venus freezes?
And does that make it easier to teraform?

With mars i think we will have a growing colony before any serious attempts are ready, and they will resist with all the Martian will they have.
They will love it just the way it is, and we should probably respect that.

Kippy,

Excellent idea on the mirrors.
Why turn a planet when you can turn mirrors.

The gas collection at the giants would take ages, but so would teraforming Venus.
So i suspect it wont be a rush job anyway.

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