Permanent residents of Mars - what would they be like physically?

Byron · 2004-04-01 07:23:49

I'm starting a new thread as per Dicktice's suggestion in another thread, about what future Martians might become physically after a generation or two of being on Mars.

Assuming we get past the point of having people on a rotating basis on Mars a la Antarctica, it would be a reasonable suggestion that succeeding generation of Martians would become physically different than folks here on Earth...I guess the main question to ask is "how much"? Will folks become tall and skinny, due to the lower gravity? Would their skin become extra-pale due to lack of exposure to direct sunlight? These are reasonable assumptions...but I imagine there could be other changes as well...such as Martians engineering their bodies to adapt to the conditions on Mars (taking a cue from SBird...lol.)

For example, future Martian settlers might not relish the idea of 7-foot tall youngsters running around in what will almost surely be extremely limited living spaces...what of the idea of making future generations smaller in terms of physical size, so they'll take up less room and consume proportionally fewer resources? Or maybe the lower gravity would make it necessary for people to be "biogenned" to be large and massive compared to folks here on Earth, so bones won't become brittle from lack of use, etc. Or maybe they will strive to make certain that Martian children be no different than children born on Earth, so they can have the privilage of going back there someday, which might require daily sessions in the centifuge and the like.

Considering that this could go in any number of directions...what do you guys think might happen? What do you think *should* happen with future settlers? Inquiring minds want to know...

B

clark · 2004-04-01 08:40:42

Ask yourself this, why do visiting Martians to Earth always wear sunglasses?

Or why they always look younger than their Terran counterparts?

While on average, Martians tend to be slightly taller than their Terran counterparts, they don't grow into giant beanstalks (genes still have an upper limit which are expressed as a function of environmental conditions).

The hardest part about going to Earth, for a Martian, is the pressure differential, as Martians, and all space folks, live in low pressure environments (when compared to Earth).

dicktice · 2004-04-01 09:11:35

And, have you noticed how broad their shoulders are, and their biceps too are huge in spite of having rather spindly, even birdlike legs. It can't be because of swimming, because they don't allow that up there. Water is too precious.
You know what they told me? They get that way from growing up, flying around in those pressurized canyons in unpowered flapping-wing suits. Honest!

Bill White · 2004-04-01 09:12:35

I see cardio-vascular issues as being a very real potential problem. Since the total weight of the body's blood volume will be 3/8ths of Earth normal, the heart muscle will not need to work as hard to circulate the blood.

I doubt its a linear relationship but there can be no doubt that heart muscles on Mars will face less stress and therefore will be weaker.

A Mars-born will find visiting Earth a grueling experience and I find it hard to improve on Kim Stanley Robinson's phrase "Earth-buffed."

Bill White · 2004-04-01 09:15:59

And, have you noticed how broad their shoulders are, and their biceps too are huge in spite of having rather spindly, even birdlike legs. It can't be because of swimming, because they don't allow that up there. Water is too precious.
You know what they told me? They get that way from growing up, flying around in those pressurized canyons in unpowered flapping-wing suits. Honest!

Why no swimming? Pool water is not consumed. What better use for a water reserve?

But swimming would be weird, given that surface tension will remain unchanged in an absolute sense while being greatly increased in a relative sense compared with gravity. People might be too bouyant to swim efficiently.

Swim weights? Carry metal weights on your arms and legs to IMPROVE swimming efficiency? LOL!

clark · 2004-04-01 09:20:08

What's with this love of suits? You guys are starting to scare me.

Space suits, bird suits, now swiming suits? Bah!

Martians will spend as much time naked as they possibly can just to escape the need for suits in every single living situation they encounter.

Mars, where all the beaches are for the buff!

Now, let's go find us a beach! :laugh:

Byron · 2004-04-01 10:22:48

The hardest part about going to Earth, for a Martian, is the pressure differential, as Martians, and all space folks, live in low pressure environments (when compared to Earth).

Can you explain to me why that would be a problem? For example, a sea-level dweller will always have a much harder time adapting to a place like La Paz, Bolivia than someone from that high altitude would coming down to sea level (this is why some long-distance runners like to train at altitude, to give them an extra edge down at sea level.) I presume a Martian would find higher-pressure air easier to deal with than their own low-pressure atmosphere instead of the other way around.

But the gravity...oh the gravity! It'd be like us experiencing Jupiter-level gee...Bill's absolutely right when he says that it will be a grueling experience for them. But I bet this will earn returning Earth visitors some serious bragging rights back home...LOL...

B

clark · 2004-04-01 13:44:49

Not sure if it would actually be a problem, but I surmise it might be. Deep sea divers have to deal with issues of repressurization coming from deep dives, so I assume some similiar issues might exsist for those who have lived in partial pressure environments all their lives. Also, there may be issues related to sustained living in a non-terrestrial breathing environment (the o2 ratio's to everything else).

So I *think* there may be a problem, but I'm not sure. Such are the limitations of the imagination.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-01 16:23:49

I'm not going to pretend to know enough about the effects of Martian conditions on successive generations of Mars-born humans to make many definitive statements, except to say that changes will occur.

Unless something is done about it. Yes, I've given entirely too much thought to this.

Martian biology will diverge from the Terran sources if left alone. But do we want this? Aside from the very real possibility that Martian natives will have severe problems with Earth gravity, essentially making Mars a planetary ghetto there is another concern of paramount importance. Or total irrelevance, depending on your vision for the future. How closely tied do we want the Martian and Terran populations to be? Do we want to be Martians and Terrans or would we rather be humans living on Mars and/or Terra? Important distinction.

The latter is the way of a spacefaring, growing civilization. the former is a path to divergent cultures, values, and eventually species. I greatly prefer the expansive approach, keeping the biologic and cultural norms of both planets closely aligned.

Ah, but how do we accomplish this? Don't know exactly! But it would seem that we need two things: constant contact between the people of the two worlds, both physically and in media; and some method(s) of making the enviroment for Martians as close to Earth as possible, as far as gravity, air pressure, lighting, etc. are concerned. Some of these things we can't do very well, at least at our current level of technology, gravity for example. Rigorous exercise and centirfuges might help somewhat, but are half-assed compromises at best. Others are fairly easy, such as making the lighting as natural as possible in the habs. Otherwise we'll end up with a planet of Morloks. And no flourescent lights, please. In short, we may be forced to as much as possible make Mars Earth.

Or we can just say to hell with it and let the species diverge, deal with the consequences later. But given the human propensity to armed conflict, the costs of our laziness now could be unfortunate. Just some thoughts...

Ian Flint · 2004-04-01 18:27:57

I have an idea for a book I might someday write:

Most of the early settlers don't want to have deformed babies (and don't want to experiment with Martian G on their own kids) so they build big centrifuge prenatal habitats perhaps as big as cities. These habitats produce Earthlike Martians short, stout and healthy. They like to stay inside their spinning cities most of the time and are awkward and uneasy outside in the Martian environment.

Other more adventurous settlers throw caution to the wind and just let nature (martian nature that is) take its course. Their children grow taller and are more graceful and attuned to their environment. They love it outside (in space suits, of course) and become the roaming adventurers of Mars. The one drawback is that their bodies still expect Earth gravity so certain hormone releases and brain development occur differently (sometimes good, sometimes bad).

The Centrifugers fear the wild, roaming Outsiders and the Outsiders are disgusted with the timid, reclusive Centrifugers. This is of course a recipe for war.

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-01 20:26:40

Tall, Slender, Tanned, and Sexy ... and in Supportive Suits while in g's higher than Mars.

Byron · 2004-04-02 07:26:58

Martian biology will diverge from the Terran sources if left alone. But do we want this? Aside from the very real possibility that Martian natives will have severe problems with Earth gravity, essentially making Mars a planetary ghetto there is another concern of paramount importance. Or total irrelevance, depending on your vision for the future. How closely tied do we want the Martian and Terran populations to be? Do we want to be Martians and Terrans or would we rather be humans living on Mars and/or Terra? Important distinction.
The latter is the way of a spacefaring, growing civilization. the former is a path to divergent cultures, values, and eventually species. I greatly prefer the expansive approach, keeping the biologic and cultural norms of both planets closely aligned.

You've made some excellent points, C.C....thank you...

I fully agree with you about diverging biology if Martians were "left alone"...if anyone would like to see this principle in action, I would recommend a trip to the "Altiplano" region of the central Andies, namely southern Peru and central Bolivia, which has an average elevation of 14,000 feet above sea level. 15,000 feet is generally considered the upper limit of permanent human habitation, so anyone living at thirteen or fourteen thousand feet is "pushing the envelope" so to speak. And the folks really do look different as a result of biological adaptation to the extreme altitude...they have large, barrel-shaped chests (for greater lung capacity) and rose-red cheeks as a result of being exposed to higher UV levels...not to mention having blood with higher concentrations of red blood cells, etc.

Poor me, when I visited that area, I came down with altitude sickness, as my body just could not cope with the lack of O2 in the air...I had severe headaches, could not eat, etc. Desperate to get to a lower altitude, I went to the Las Paz "El Alto" airport (highest in the world, at 4020 meters), and sought to fly to Santiago, Chile a day early than I was supposed to (I had a reserved plane tix.) But when I found out there wasn't a flight going to Santiago that day, I was extremely distraught, as I was *desperate* to get down to sea level. Much to my good fortune, the airline person was able to get me on a flight to Arica, Chile, just 30 minutes by air, on a different airline...which was a real "life saver"..lol (I was able to continue on to Santiago the following day, as scheduled.)

I tell you what, when I got off that plane a couple hours later and took a deep breath of the deliciously thick sea-level air...I don't think I ever felt better in my life...lol... It was like going from having a severe flu to an instant cure...the difference was absolutely amazing.

But my experience down there illustrates the fact that we have divergent biologies of humans even right here on Earth...there are places where I (a humble sea-level dweller..lol) really wouldn't be able to live, although the residents do just fine. So it's not much of a stretch to think that the biology of humans living on Mars and elsewhere could become so different from the rest of us that they could very well evolve into a whole other "species" of human...which is something that I'm admittedly not comfortable with.

But how to go about making sure that humans on Earth and off-Earth remain closely aligned? Your guess is as good as mine...

B

SBird · 2004-04-02 11:21:16

I was in Tibet about a year and a half ago. It's very similar. Lhasa's only about 12,500 feet up but going up a flight of stairs just knocks you flat. You feel fine until about 5 seconds into any serious exertion (such as standing up) and you then just about pass out. However, after about 2 days, I found my body starting to acclimatize to the air pressure. Past mountain climbing experience probably helped a lot.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-02 16:32:27

But how to go about making sure that humans on Earth and off-Earth remain closely aligned? Your guess is as good as mine...

Well, so far the best I've been able to come up with is a solution that would offend some, scare the bejesus out of many, but really work out well in a number of areas. But we'd need more than two inhabitied planets for it to work properly. Even then, I'm not entirely convinced it's a good idea, so don't take this as advocating a solution, merely exploring one.

On the governing of a multi-planet state...

There will be some divergence, but to minimize it as much as possible two things are needed: Physical contact and cultural contact, the more the better.

So... We could introduce military conscription, build up an excessively large army and space-navy and make sure as many people as possible serve on planets other than the one they're from. Constantly keep mixing up the population. This takes care of the cultural and biologic issues. But this works better with more planets. A constantly expanding frontier doesn't hurt either.

Of course it has a host of other effects that greatly influence society, but not necessarily in a terribly negative way. Some people are thinking the "Galactic Empire" from Star Wars, others are probably picturing the more benign Federation of Star Trek. It's all in the implementation.

I suppose the point is simply that becoming a multi-planet civilization isn't going to be nice and neat all the time, we're going to have some tough choices ahead.

Carpe Astra!

A.J.Armitage · 2004-04-03 18:18:54

Cobra;

Of course, an army implies someone to fight against, which means you need at least two interplanetary empires/federations/whatever. (US vs. China?) And then they might get out of hand and actually go to war.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-03 20:08:13

Cobra;
Of course, an army implies someone to fight against, which means you need at least two interplanetary empires/federations/whatever. (US vs. China?) And then they might get out of hand and actually go to war.

Not necessarily, you could simply have one "federation" with a military grossly in excess of what it would ever need for defense, especially against an undefined and possibly non-existent enemy. The real trick wouldn't be avoiding wars but keeping too many people from figuring out that the entire enterprise is a front for the sole purpose of homogenizing the civilization between planets. If war ever should break out with an outside entity it may even be necessary to form an entirely new military system, this one actually devoted to fighting wars!

I never claimed it was a good solution, merely a possible one.

Bill White · 2004-04-03 20:16:24

Cobra;
Of course, an army implies someone to fight against, which means you need at least two interplanetary empires/federations/whatever. (US vs. China?) And then they might get out of hand and actually go to war.
Not necessarily, you could simply have one "federation" with a military grossly in excess of what it would ever need for defense, especially against an undefined and possibly non-existent enemy. The real trick wouldn't be avoiding wars but keeping too many people from figuring out that the entire enterprise is a front for the sole purpose of homogenizing the civilization between planets. If war ever should break out with an outside entity it may even be necessary to form an entirely new military system, this one actually devoted to fighting wars!
I never claimed it was a good solution, merely a possible one.

I seem to recall a science fiction novel based on the premise that USSR and USA scientists conspire to persuade the world that an alien invasion was imminent. No real aliens, of course.

That might work, for a little while. :;):

clark · 2004-04-05 07:18:49

Perhaps instilling respect for the differences of others might go a long ways towards mitigating any problems related to the biological divergence of the human species.

Or just keeping pointing guns at the 'other'. whatever.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-05 15:39:03

Perhaps instilling respect for the differences of others might go a long ways towards mitigating any problems related to the biological divergence of the human species.
Or just keeping pointing guns at the 'other'. whatever.

If we don't deal with the biologic divergence we're likely going to have people who can't function outside their native environment. Of course we can go to Mars, but silly Martians, Earth is for Terrans. Even without the pointing of guns, some Martians will get mighty resentful. Better to prevent such issues in the first place.

Rxke · 2004-04-05 16:18:55

C.C., while I at first thought your idea was a workable one (send the younger, adaptable Martians to Earth for a while,) it would become wildly uneconomical when the population becomes bigger... Imagine thousands of youngsters shuttling back and forth all the time...
You can't expect a *majority* of the populace to go to an 'Earth-stint' in the long term, even when you'd make it a military operation (some people might be exempt, for religious, philosophical etc. reasons...) Of course in that case you could send that non-military group to an education/university trip, but still... There are bound to be fairly large groups staying Mars-local for generations, not all of those necc. sectarians etc. I can imagine rich, pampered kids getting exempt of the 'tour of Earth Duty'

clark · 2004-04-05 16:28:37

I don't think Martians will be all that resentful about not being able to visit an over populated, bacteria filled, thick atmosphere environment.

Probably, like any small town, they will resent the visitors. The tourists and out of towners with little respect for the cultural norms and the local churches.

Damn terrans, leaving their trash everywhere.

Your solution compounds the problem.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-05 17:00:57

You can't expect a *majority* of the populace to go to an 'Earth-stint' in the long term, even when you'd make it a military operation (some people might be exempt, for religious, philosophical etc. reasons...) Of course in that case you could send that non-military group to an education/university trip, but still... There are bound to be fairly large groups staying Mars-local for generations, not all of those necc. sectarians etc. I can imagine rich, pampered kids getting exempt of the 'tour of Earth Duty'

Those are two of the problems, it's uneconomical and no one can be exempted. While it could work under certain conditions, it's a very fascist idea on some levels, mandatory service to the state and all.

It's a trap that a spacefaring civilization that wants to remain a single civilization can easily fall into. Of course taking the other route, ignoring the issue is a trap as well, i would argue the more damaging one.

don't think Martians will be all that resentful about not being able to visit an over populated, bacteria filled, thick atmosphere environment.
Probably, like any small town, they will resent the visitors. The tourists and out of towners with little respect for the cultural norms and the local churches.

That depends largely on the social and economic importance of Mars. I'd imagine that like in many small towns there would be many among the younger generation who would want to get out of their podunk town (or planet) and go to the big city, more opportunity and all. So what are the odds that the first generation of native-born Martians will be born into a world so prosperous and full of options that even the nagging desire to visit Earth won't be gnawing at them?

Your solution compounds the problem.

It attempts to address the problem in an admittedly imperfect way. If we want Mars to be a sparsely populated backwater then this approach is totaly undesireable. But, will the future Martians want that? They'll be stuck there unless something is done about it from the beginning.

If we want to seed the planet with sentient life we have no problem, just send some colonists and forget about it. But I don't find this option desireable.

Federal Service,
Are you doing your part?

clark · 2004-04-06 14:38:44

Let me take a step back, your idea has merit Cobra. It is a solution, albeit one that requires us to make a space navy that is little more than a party transport fleet, "all aboard, cultural exchange!" And that is what leads me to this idea... tweak yours ever so slightly, and go "Peace Corps".

Send some Terrans to Mars to build stuff and act as cultural ambasadors, send some Martians to Terran schools to get kids excited about space.

Mars needs people, and Terran's need dreams.

Of course it would help if we lay down the guns, but we can talk about that later.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-06 16:10:24

Let me take a step back, your idea has merit Cobra. It is a solution, albeit one that requires us to make a space navy that is little more than a party transport fleet, "all aboard, cultural exchange!" And that is what leads me to this idea... tweak yours ever so slightly, and go "Peace Corps".
Send some Terrans to Mars to build stuff and act as cultural ambasadors, send some Martians to Terran schools to get kids excited about space.
Mars needs people, and Terran's need dreams.
Of course it would help if we lay down the guns, but we can talk about that later.

Ah, compromise. Your idea is workable, so long as enough people participate. A significant cultural and biological "mass" needs to be "shuffled" regularly. Not everyone, but a significant percentage. A quarter perhaps as the minimum.

This is why I find the "Space Navy" approach workable, albeit uneconomical in the extreme. A huge chunk of the population, possibly coming close to 100% of the male population, (or the female population as well, depending on how the program is administered) could spend at least a few years of their lives on planets other than their native world.

Besides, this way we're ready if we run into those lizard people.

But just Earth and colonial Mars won't cut it for this sort of arrangement. More colonies would be needed. So it's really just a theory that we really don't have to deal with right now, unless we get that dang ol' hyperdrive to work.

In the Early stages of Mars colonization, Clark's idea probably makes more sense. But then one day we'll end with "civilization" on Mars, then the mix changes ever so slightly.

dicktice · 2004-04-07 09:23:08

Cobra: Regarding your "multi-planet state" suggestion, I'm reminded of our on-going process of globalization, and how seemingly impossible is the bringing together of the different cultures of the Home Planet, not to mention our so-called visible minorities. . . .

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