Unpleasantries - Macabre business --

Palomar · 2002-07-08 21:54:17

*I presume the first [and subsequent] manned Mars missions will include cyanide capsules or a similar option for quick and painless suicide in the event of something terribly tragic occurring?

*I advocate voluntary euthanasia, i.e. a person's right to die [provided the person is of sound mind and in possession of full cognizance during such a request]. I'd hope that any human society on Mars would recognize this right and allow its practice. How do you all feel about this?

--Cindy

Aetius · 2002-07-09 03:47:56

No one should be forced to die of starvation (or thirst, radiation sickness, et cetera) on an alien planet. Grim though the possibility might be, I'd hope they discreetly take the pills along.

Byron · 2002-07-09 05:39:22

I second this notion. I think voluntary euthanasia should be a part of every Martian settler's rights on Mars...

B

Shaun Barrett · 2002-07-09 06:13:10

I believe cyanide pills cause death quickly, with muscle twitches and frothing at the mouth. But is it really painless, as Cindy suggests?
Maybe it's just that nobody has been available afterwards to report that it hurt like hell!!

Palomar · 2002-07-09 07:55:57

I believe cyanide pills cause death quickly, with muscle twitches and frothing at the mouth. But is it really painless, as Cindy suggests?
Maybe it's just that nobody has been available afterwards to report that it hurt like hell!!

*Lol! Okay, Shaun...I stand corrected. Maybe it's not painless.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-07-09 08:00:12

I advocate voluntary euthanasia, i.e. a person's right to die [provided the person is of sound mind and in possession of full cognizance during such a request]. I'd hope that any human society on Mars would recognize this right and allow its practice.

If we hold that murder is wrong, or should I say, the taking of a life, is wrong- how can we reasonably justify that the murder of self is less wrong?

Cindy, you suggest that a person be of "sound mind, etc."- is it "sound" to end your life? Sanity is usualy determined by examining wheter or not an individual is engaged in self-destructive behavior- suicide is pretty final in its self-destruction. So how can anyone who chooses their own death be considered to have a sound mind?

Of course there is the emotional argument, the "death with dignity" point of view, and I grant that this is a very noble argument. However, the fact remains that if someone is facing severe pain caused by a debilitating disease, then there is very little possibility that they could be thinking in a stable frame of mind- the pain affects their thinking, which means they can never qualify for the "sound mind" critera.

Also, if you allow for the "right to die", you allow for ALL suicides. Who are you or I to decide wheter or not someone should continue or not- imagine the throngs of disaffected teenagers that throw themselves from bridges- and we as a society would have to defend that action- it is grotesque.

Right now we consider the taking of our own life as justifiable when we are faced with overwhelming and debilitating life changes brought on by pain- how far will this slide before "overwhelming depression" becomes a justifiable reason?

How long before people are "encouraged" to take their own life instead of dealing, or facing the pain they may be subjected to- how long before we decide that euthanasia is really "okay" and then start to encourage people to kill themselves in order to save on the cost of keeping them alive.

No, you have no right to kill yourself, anymore than someone else has a right to kill you. Your life is sacrosanct- either life has the dignity of life, or it dosen't. Choose.

Palomar · 2002-07-09 09:10:43

*Another matter which I've been thinking about are the elderly on Mars. Bone tissue and the cardiovascular system weaken or diminish in lesser gravity, and the elderly already face troubles in this regard [especially in women, i.e. loss of bone mass in the perimenopausal phase]. Sure, exercise and diet supplements can be deterrants -- to an extent. These specific troubles are bad enough on Earth. I am worried about senior citizens on Mars.

Clark, I'll get to your post later in the day.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-07-09 10:26:24

Clark: If we hold that murder is wrong, or should I say, the taking of a life, is wrong- how can we reasonably justify that the murder of self is less wrong?

*Why call suicide "murder"? Is the scientist of old who injected *himself* with a vaccination preparation, in order to test its efficacy, possible side effects, etc., the same sort of scoundrel who subjected unwilling persons to the same sort of testing? No. What is done to the self [voluntary death] is different from murder [done to another, resulting in their involuntary death].

Clark: Cindy, you suggest that a person be of "sound mind, etc."- is it "sound" to end your life?

*Psychological batteries of testing can be applied to a person requesting euthanasia, to determine if they are cognizant, aware, etc. As for "is it SOUND to end your life?" -- it could be. Suppose Settler Williams on Mars gets horribly burned in an accident; 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 80% of her body. Plastic surgery techniques here on Earth are only partially successful in healing, and even less so in the cosmetic aspect. The cache of pain medications will run out within a week, though she's been stabilized and will not die of loss of body fluid, etc.; she is aware of what's happened to her and cannot bear the thought of what she now looks like, and having to live with that...she wants to die. It's her life, it's her right to die.

Clark: Sanity is usualy determined by examining wheter or not an individual is engaged in self-destructive behavior- suicide is pretty final in its self-destruction.

*Settler Williams' request to die because of her horrible burns and the hideous deformities which will result seems more to me an an attempt at saving herself.

Clark: So how can anyone who chooses their own death be considered to have a sound mind?

*I can think of many instances where suicide is the mark of an incredibly sound mind.

Clark: Of course there is the emotional argument, the "death with dignity" point of view, and I grant that this is a very noble argument. However, the fact remains that if someone is facing severe pain caused by a debilitating disease, then there is very little possibility that they could be thinking in a stable frame of mind- the pain affects their thinking, which means they can never qualify for the "sound mind" critera.

*The pain won't effect their thinking if they are on pain medications at a level where awareness and rational thought are still possible for them. There's death with dignity -- and then there's QUALITY OF LIFE. I'd rather have quality of life.

Clark: "Also, if you allow for the "right to die", you allow for ALL suicides. Who are you or I to decide wheter or not someone should continue or not- imagine the throngs of disaffected teenagers that throw themselves from bridges- and we as a society would have to defend that action- it is grotesque."

*What's so bad about suicide? It's not for me to decide whether another person should continue or not -- it's THEIR decision. And I'd rather have disaffected persons [I won't pick on teenagers] throw themselves from a bridge than to run into a mall, spraying bullets at groups of people.

Clark: "Right now we consider the taking of our own life as justifiable when we are faced with overwhelming and debilitating life changes brought on by pain- how far will this slide before "overwhelming depression" becomes a justifiable reason?"

*Most anti-euthanasia sentiments have come about from religious sentiment that persons who commit suicide go straight to hell. I'm not saying you believe this, but that was the Church's propoganda for years. As for a justifiable reason for suicide -- you can't make this a "blanket" issue. Each person can and should decide for themselves, based on the particulars of what's going on in their life.

Clark: "How long before people are "encouraged" to take their own life instead of dealing, or facing the pain they may be subjected to- how long before we decide that euthanasia is really "okay" and then start to encourage people to kill themselves in order to save on the cost of keeping them alive."

*So we should encourage people to suffer? People cannot be encouraged to kill themselves who don't want to. Heck, I've transcribed countless medical reports of people who feign suicide attempts...they want to die, so they say, and swallow a huge handful of pills, only to rush to the phone and call and ambulance. Most people who attempt suicide don't carry through, or make only a half-hearted attempt which comes down to attention-seeking behavior only. THESE people need to reassess themselves, come to terms with life [since they obviously don't really want to die], get a grip and get some help. Thus, I can't foresee people being "encouraged" to commit suicide and following through; even some of the most depressed persons or persons with emotional troubles want to continue living. The will to live is strong in humans. But for those who don't wish to go on living, it's their body and life, it's their decision. Who are you to say this isn't so?

Clark: "No, you have no right to kill yourself, anymore than someone else has a right to kill you. Your life is sacrosanct- either life has the dignity of life, or it dosen't. Choose."

*There's dignity of life and there's quality of life. Personally, I'd rather be dead than live under Taliban-like rule. Self-love and self-preservation can be expressed in suicide. I'd rather have the dignity of taking my own life than allow a group of persons [enemy] to take it from me.

I don't equate murder with suicide. Again, a person's life is their own right. Suicide is no more NOT their right than having plastic surgery or getting their teeth cleaned or plucking their eyebrows isn't their right.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-07-09 11:37:53

*Why call suicide "murder"?

Because that is what it is. Murder is the ending of a life by SOMONE, with forsight, and with intention. Isn't that ECACTLY what suicide is?

Is the scientist of old who injected *himself* with a vaccination preparation, in order to test its efficacy, possible side effects, etc., the same sort of scoundrel who subjected unwilling persons to the same sort of testing? No.

You are attempting to rationalize a behavior- this anaolgy does not apply to the ending of a life. They used to rationalize that Jews were not human, so it was okay to kill them- the planned taking of a life, by anyone, is murder, no matter how you may rationalize this act. Try establishing that we have a right to murder ourselves.

What is done to the self [voluntary death] is different from murder [done to another, resulting in their involuntary death].

Why is it different? How is it different? Just becuase one you exercsie a "choice" does not make it okay. Can I "choose" to be a slave? The act debases all life, and brings into question the role of Society- it exsists to ensure and protect youe LIFE and rights. Are you proposing that we have a right to choose when Society acts in this capacity?

*Psychological batteries of testing can be applied to a person requesting euthanasia, to determine if they are cognizant, aware, etc.

Please provide me with the OBJECTIVE critera of when, how, and why killing yourself is a sound idea.

As for "is it SOUND to end your life?" -- it could be. Suppose Settler Williams on Mars gets horribly burned in an accident; 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 80% of her body.

Then it is horrible. You can come up with a million "exceptions" that cry out for "mercy", but they are rationalizations. If you establish that we have the right to end our lives at the moment of our choosing, then you neccessarily establish that right for everyone, to be exercised at anytime. That means we, as people dealing with people, are powerless to PREVENT those who think they wish to end their life- after all it is a personal decision, and a personal right- we would in fact have to instutite (to avoid hypocrisy) laws that prevent people from interfering with someone exercising this "right".

she is aware of what's happened to her and cannot bear the thought of what she now looks like, and having to live with that...she wants to die. It's her life, it's her right to die.

Imagine Settler Williams is fat (no burns)- about 30 pounds or so. She feels bad about her self image, and hasn't had a date in a long time. She hates the way she looks. She decides to kill herself and be done with it. It's her life, right? Or what about Jimmy, studying for finals, to many units- feels like he is going to fail the expectations of his family- rather than living with this supposed shame, he kills himself. Well, it is his right, isn't it?

You argue for this world, why?

*Settler Williams' request to die because of her horrible burns and the hideous deformities which will result seems more to me an an attempt at saving herself.

Ah, to save the village, we had to destroy the village. Good lesson. Settler Williams is NOT attempting to save herself- being dead is not "saving self". The death is an immideate release from the pain- that is what she is trying to do, escape the pain. That's what suicide is Cindy.

*I can think of many instances where suicide is the mark of an incredibly sound mind.

Name ONE. The only "rational" reason for suicide is to trade your life for another, or multiple others; i.e. jumping on a gernade- at that point it is an act of SACRIFICE, not suicide.

*The pain won't effect their thinking if they are on pain medications at a level where awareness and rational thought are still possible for them.

I find it hard to accept that the pain medication would NOT affect their thought process in some manner- if it does, then they are not exactly in a frame of mind that can be considered "whole".

There's death with dignity -- and then there's QUALITY OF LIFE. I'd rather have quality of life.

What quality of life do you have if you are dead?

*What's so bad about suicide? It's not for me to decide whether another person should continue or not -- it's THEIR decision.

What if it is a sports hero? A community leader? A person your children look up to, or admire? Is this really the type of example you want set?

And I'd rather have disaffected persons [I won't pick on teenagers] throw themselves from a bridge than to run into a mall, spraying bullets at groups of people.

As would I, but that dosen't justify it in anyway.

*Most anti-euthanasia sentiments have come about from religious sentiment that persons who commit suicide go straight to hell.

True, but as you might notice, I am not refrencing God in any way.

Each person can and should decide for themselves, based on the particulars of what's going on in their life.

So you are okay with Mothers of 12 killing themselves becuase they are bored or just tired of being Mom? I fail to see the wisdom in that.

*So we should encourage people to suffer?

No, i never even hinted at that. Are you implying our response should be, "oj, you feel bad? Well, go ahead and end it all so you won't feel bad anymore."

People cannot be encouraged to kill themselves who don't want to.

Yes, they can. We have an entire industry that encourages people to lose weight, not eat, to fit a body image that is unrealistic. People can, and are encouraged to do things that they don't neccessarily "want" to do. Who "wants" to go hungry? Peopl do it anyway though.

Who are you to say this isn't so?

A loud mouth with more sense.

*There's dignity of life and there's quality of life. Personally, I'd rather be dead than live under Taliban-like rule.

If you are dead, there is NO LIFE- there can be no quality, there can be no dignity, there is only a dead corpse (which can be disposed of by the State! ). Apparently you have certain "standards" that you would live under- how is ending your life going to bring about those standards?

Self-love and self-preservation can be expressed in suicide.

How exactly?

I'd rather have the dignity of taking my own life than allow a group of persons [enemy] to take it from me.

If someone is intent on killing you and you beat them to the punch, they have still murdered you- they forced you to die.

Suicide is no more NOT their right than having plastic surgery or getting their teeth cleaned or plucking their eyebrows isn't their right.

Plastic surgery and teeth cleaning do not infringe on any of your other rights- death does.

Palomar · 2002-07-09 12:25:22

ME: Why call suicide "murder"?

CLARK: Because that is what it is. Murder is the ending of a life by SOMONE, with forsight, and with intention. Isn't that ECACTLY what suicide is?

*Suicide is ending the life of one's self, with foresight and intention. It's NOT murder, because it is self-inflicted. Murder is the ending of one's life by ANOTHER.
Masturbation isn't rape, is it?

ME: Is the scientist of old who injected *himself* with a vaccination preparation, in order to test its efficacy, possible side effects, etc., the same sort of scoundrel who subjected unwilling persons to the same sort of testing? No.

CLARK: You are attempting to rationalize a behavior- this anaolgy does not apply to the ending of a life. They used to rationalize that Jews were not human, so it was okay to kill them- the planned taking of a life, by anyone, is murder, no matter how you may rationalize this act. Try establishing that we have a right to murder ourselves.

*Try and establish that we DON'T have a right to commit suicide. And by the way, the Nazi/Jew issue has NOTHING to do -- ethically, morally, or otherwise -- with Joe Snow wanting to kill himself, any more than Joe masturbating is the equivalent of Fred Jones forcibly raping a woman.

ME: "What is done to the self [voluntary death] is different from murder [done to another, resulting in their involuntary death]."

CLARK: "Why is it different? How is it different?

*Self-imposed versus other-imposed.

CLARK: Just becuase one you exercsie a "choice" does not make it okay.

*Okay or not okay -- by what standards? The Bible? Dear Abby's advice column?

CLARK: Can I "choose" to be a slave?

*Yes. So long as you don't force others to be a slave.

Clark: The act debases all life,

*It does? How?

CLARK: "and brings into question the role of Society- it exsists to ensure and protect youe LIFE and rights. Are you proposing that we have a right to choose when Society acts in this capacity?"

*Darling, I'm looking at this from an INDIVIDUALISTIC point of view.

ME: Psychological batteries of testing can be applied to a person requesting euthanasia, to determine if they are cognizant, aware, etc.

CLARK: Please provide me with the OBJECTIVE critera of when, how, and why killing yourself is a sound idea.

*Okay. Have you ever read _The History of Torture_? How about _Foxe's Book of Martyrs_? Suppose you lived in 1564, had been accused and pronounced guilty of being a heretic. You are taken to prison, and know you will be subjected to torture resulting in excruciating pain, i.e. the rack, water torture, having your toe- and fingernails torn off with hot pincers, etc., and that regardless of "confessing" under these hideous tortures you WILL be led to a stake and burned to death. This used to happen in Europe on an almost daily basis, you know. Escape is impossible, and getting out on bail [or otherwise] is equally impossible. Suppose you find that someone had carelessly left a rope in your confinement area, and that there's a stool and rafter beam also in your confinement area...and you're alone. Would you hang yourself, or allow yourself to be tortured for hours and days on end, and finally wind up dying a long, agonizing death? I'd hang myself. That would be death with dignity, and would cheat the Inquisitors out of their "fun."

ME: As for "is it SOUND to end your life?" -- it could be. Suppose Settler Williams on Mars gets horribly burned in an accident; 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 80% of her body.

CLARK: Then it is horrible. You can come up with a million "exceptions" that cry out for "mercy", but they are rationalizations.

*Is it rationalization or it is a REASON?

CLARK: If you establish that we have the right to end our lives at the moment of our choosing, then you neccessarily establish that right for everyone, to be exercised at anytime.

*And?

CLARK: That means we, as people dealing with people, are powerless to PREVENT those who think they wish to end their life- after all it is a personal decision, and a personal right- we would in fact have to instutite (to avoid hypocrisy) laws that prevent people from interfering with someone exercising this "right".

*And?

ME: she is aware of what's happened to her and cannot bear the thought of what she now looks like, and having to live with that...she wants to die. It's her life, it's her right to die.

CLARK: Imagine Settler Williams is fat (no burns)- about 30 pounds or so. She feels bad about her self image, and hasn't had a date in a long time. She hates the way she looks. She decides to kill herself and be done with it. It's her life, right? Or what about Jimmy, studying for finals, to many units- feels like he is going to fail the expectations of his family- rather than living with this supposed shame, he kills himself. Well, it is his right, isn't it?

*Yes, it's their right. In this instance, Settler Williams can go on a diet [or YOU could ask her out for a date, Clark, to make her feel better], can try makeup, can exercise regularly...or she can kill herself. As for Jimmy -- that's his choice as well. How would YOU tell these people they CANNOT kill themselves? How can preventing people from committing suicide be enforced, and on what basis?

ME: Settler Williams' request to die because of her horrible burns and the hideous deformities which will result seems more to me an an attempt at saving herself.

CLARK: Ah, to save the village, we had to destroy the village. Good lesson.

*What does that statement have to do with the subject at hand? Nothing. I'm not speaking collectively -- I'm speaking for the individual. Do you believe The State or The Society has a right to tell people they can't commit suicide? And what would be their basis for such a pronouncement?

CLARK: Settler Williams is NOT attempting to save herself- being dead is not "saving self". The death is an immideate release from the pain- that is what she is trying to do, escape the pain. That's what suicide is Cindy.

*And what's so wrong with escaping pain? If Settler Williams the burn victim knows she will experience excruciating, horrible pain after the pain meds run out -- and the next shipment from Earth won't arrive for another month -- what, should she allow to groan, writhe, scream, and cry out for relief? That's cruel. Would YOU be willing to walk into her room, look at her and tell her, "We're sorry, Settler Williams, but you'll be out of pain medications in a few days and you'll just have to grin and bear it." Yeah, right.

ME: I can think of many instances where suicide is the mark of an incredibly sound mind.

Clark: Name ONE.

*I already have -- more than once.

CLARK: The only "rational" reason for suicide is to trade your life for another, or multiple others; i.e. jumping on a gernade- at that point it is an act of SACRIFICE, not suicide.

*Now you're talking about altruism. You're going off-topic.

ME: There's death with dignity -- and then there's QUALITY OF LIFE. I'd rather have quality of life.

CLARK: What quality of life do you have if you are dead?

*There are things worse than death, Clark. That's the point I'm trying to make.

ME: What's so bad about suicide? It's not for me to decide whether another person should continue or not -- it's THEIR decision.

CLARK: What if it is a sports hero? A community leader?

*Oh, you mean the people who regularly snort cocaine, seduce underage teenage girls, embezzle, etc.?

CLARK: A person your children look up to, or admire? Is this really the type of example you want set?

*It won't be an example. As I pointed out in my last post, most people DON'T opt for suicide, whether they make a gesture toward it or never do. The will to live is strong in humans. Considering that death is final, I doubt "Let's Play Suicide!" will ever become a fashionable trend

ME: Most anti-euthanasia sentiments have come about from religious sentiment that persons who commit suicide go straight to hell.

CLARK: True, but as you might notice, I am not refrencing God in any way.

*Yeah, I know you aren't. But that's where many peoples' anti-euthanasia sentiments come from; whether or not you are religious, you, I, and everyone else has been influenced by religious sentiment either directly or indirectly, considering it is a very strong part of our societal environment -- especially in the USA.

Me: Each person can and should decide for themselves, based on the particulars of what's going on in their life.

CLARK: So you are okay with Mothers of 12 killing themselves becuase they are bored or just tired of being Mom? I fail to see the wisdom in that.

*I'd rather see a mother like that committing suicide rather than drowning her kids, like Andrea Yates did. Besides, if this mother you refer to didn't have enough brains to quit having kids at Baby #5 -- or couldn't figure out how babies are conceived -- maybe the gene pool is better off without such a stupid person. This would go for a father in the same situation as well.

ME: So we should encourage people to suffer?

CLARK: No, i never even hinted at that.

*But if you disapprove of suicide and feel society should enforce its prevention, then you naturally would prefer to have people suffer. I'm not insinuating that you are sadistic; however, it's either/or.

CLARK: Are you implying our response should be, "oj, you feel bad? Well, go ahead and end it all so you won't feel bad anymore."

*Oh, give me a break! OJ doesn't feel bad. He's too busy golfing and banging his latest blond, white girlfriend to be out there "looking for the REAL killers [of Nicole and Ron]."

ME: People cannot be encouraged to kill themselves who don't want to.

CLARK: Yes, they can. We have an entire industry that encourages people to lose weight, not eat, to fit a body image that is unrealistic. People can, and are encouraged to do things that they don't neccessarily "want" to do. Who "wants" to go hungry? Peopl do it anyway though.

*No, they can't. Death is final -- most people won't go that far.

ME: Who are you to say this isn't so?

CLARK: A loud mouth with more sense.

*That's not a reason. And I think I've got more sense than you.

ME: There's dignity of life and there's quality of life. Personally, I'd rather be dead than live under Taliban-like rule.

CLARK: If you are dead, there is NO LIFE-

*Yeah, I do know that.

CLARK: there can be no quality, there can be no dignity, there is only a dead corpse (which can be disposed of by the State! ).

*Which is preferable to being gang raped, beaten for exposing my wrist accidentally {{gasp!!}}, living in a house with the windows blacked out, not being able to go outdoors without a male escort, and liable for execution if I so much as raise my arms to protect my face while my husband beats the living daylights out of me.

CLARK: Apparently you have certain "standards" that you would live under- how is ending your life going to bring about those standards?

*The standards may not be brought about anyway.

ME: Self-love and self-preservation can be expressed in suicide.

CLARK: How exactly?

*I've already answered this [above].

ME: I'd rather have the dignity of taking my own life than allow a group of persons [enemy] to take it from me.

CLARK: If someone is intent on killing you and you beat them to the punch, they have still murdered you- they forced you to die.

*I'd rather it be at my own hand than at their hand. That, to me, is an expression of self-love and dignity.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-07-09 13:53:07

First we argue about the rights of the dead body, now we argue over wheter or not the living body has the right to make themselves become the dead body... :0 I find I am learning, what exactly, I'm not sure yet...

Suicide is ending the life of one's self, with foresight and intention. It's NOT murder, because it is self-inflicted. Murder is the ending of one's life by ANOTHER. Masturbation isn't rape, is it?

Good point. So, if we accept this specfic reasoning, we neccessarily must recognize the inherent right over self. Society is without recourse in establishing drug laws- what right do you or anyone have in determining what I choose to ingest? You do away with age restrictions for alcohol becuase of the same reason. We must disolve the current practice whereby doctor perscriptions must be obtained for medication- no one has the right to allow or dissalow what I choose to put in my body...
All laws regarding saftey compliance must be disolved, after all, we cannot allow anyone to impose any rules that affect how I use my body- in this case, wheter or not I choose to wear a seat belt or wear a helmet. Since a child is the ward of their parent, we can no longer instutire laws that force saftey standards onto manufacturers of childs stuff- Society has no right.

Welcome to your lovely world of Buyer Beware.

Oh wait, I forgot about the USDA- so much for regulating the food we eat- after all, who are you or anyone else to tell me what kind of food I eat. MMMMM.... E coli.

Hey, no more flight saftey standards- who are you to tell me what kind of plane I can fly in.

Is this really the platform that you wish to advocate? Masturbation isn't rape, but this logic you advocate fails.

*Try and establish that we DON'T have a right to commit suicide.

The taking of life is not a right we inherently posses, ever. It is the ONE right we have no claim to. Suicide is the taking of a life- even if it is at your own hands. Society exsists to protect life and ensure rights. How can you have a right that is diametricaly opposed to the very thing [society] which ensures your rights? If you were in a State of Nature, then fine- off yourself, but we are not.

ME: "What is done to the self [voluntary death] is different from murder [done to another, resulting in their involuntary death]."
CLARK: "Why is it different? How is it different?
*Self-imposed versus other-imposed.

So two different reasons, but the same result somehow justify it? A man who shoots a thousand people who asked to be shot is better than a man who shot a thousand silent people?

CLARK: Just becuase one you exercsie a "choice" does not make it okay.
*Okay or not okay -- by what standards? The Bible? Dear Abby's advice column?

Either you have a right to life, or you don't. That is the standard- the right to life, and contrary to what you might belive, you cannot legitametly give up a right.

CLARK: Can I "choose" to be a slave?
*Yes. So long as you don't force others to be a slave.

WOW, I'm stumped. We have the right to relinquish our rights?

Clark: The act debases all life,
*It does? How?

Because it establishes that sometimes it is okay to murder another individual.

CLARK: "and brings into question the role of Society- it exsists to ensure and protect youe LIFE and rights. Are you proposing that we have a right to choose when Society acts in this capacity?"
*Darling, I'm looking at this from an INDIVIDUALISTIC point of view.

As an individual, you have the ability to do whatever you want- Society exsists to tell you what is and isn't acceptable in that range of things that you are capabale of doing. An individual can take their own life, true, but Society does not have to "allow" it. Society must act ALWAYS to be fair and equitable (read Social Contract)- irregardless of a single individual's desire.

I'd hang myself. That would be death with dignity, and would cheat the Inquisitors out of their "fun."

\

I would do the same- however, it would just be hastening my inevitable death which would still be cazused by the ones who imprisoned me- it is not suicide at this point. There is no dignity in death- death is a state of being- dignity is a subjective and irrelavant experience. What you would be escaping is the PAIN- that's all.

CLARK: Then it is horrible. You can come up with a million "exceptions" that cry out for "mercy", but they are rationalizations.
*Is it rationalization or it is a REASON?

Rationalization. Either life is sacred or it isn't- which is it Cindy? What you are attempting to do is say that life is sacred except when we decide as individuals that we have had enough of life, then it is no longer sacred and so we are able to end life... Choose.

How would YOU tell these people they CANNOT kill themselves?

I would tell them that they can't kill themselves and if they try they will be commited and restrained from hurting themselves.

How can preventing people from committing suicide be enforced, and on what basis?

We can mitigate the occurence but we can never fully prevent. However, we do stop quite a few as it is now.

ME: Settler Williams' request to die because of her horrible burns and the hideous deformities which will result seems more to me an an attempt at saving herself.
CLARK: Ah, to save the village, we had to destroy the village. Good lesson.
*What does that statement have to do with the subject at hand? Nothing.

I believe you misunderstand. You suggest that the only way for Settler Williams to "save" herself is to kill herself- thus I made my Destroy the village statement. I was pointing out the obvious absurdity of your statement. Killing yourself is not saving yourself- it is simply ending your life.

Do you believe The State or The Society has a right to tell people they can't commit suicide?

Yes. It is inherent in the agreement between individual and society- society exsists to protect life.

*And what's so wrong with escaping pain?

Nothing, but suicide to escape pain is pretty final and it also infringes on the rest of your rights

If Settler Williams the burn victim knows she will experience excruciating, horrible pain after the pain meds run out -- and the next shipment from Earth won't arrive for another month -- what, should she allow to groan, writhe, scream, and cry out for relief? That's cruel.

No, that's life. Next will be saying that deformed children really can't be enjoying their life all that much, let's do them a favor and spare them the pain...

Would YOU be willing to walk into her room, look at her and tell her, "We're sorry, Settler Williams, but you'll be out of pain medications in a few days and you'll just have to grin and bear it." Yeah, right.

So then we should allow her to kill herself becuase WE have a hard time dealing with HER pain? Just because something is difficult to do or say dosen't mean it still shouldn't be said or still shouldn't be done- hell that's part of the Mars Society argument for Mars.

CLARK: The only "rational" reason for suicide is to trade your life for another, or multiple others; i.e. jumping on a gernade- at that point it is an act of SACRIFICE, not suicide.
*Now you're talking about altruism. You're going off-topic.

Actually I'm not- I was trying to undermine an anticipated argument- I was trying to disqualify the one "rational" act of suicide- just trying to beat you to the punch, not get us off tract.

ME: There's death with dignity -- and then there's QUALITY OF LIFE. I'd rather have quality of life.
CLARK: What quality of life do you have if you are dead?
*There are things worse than death, Clark. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I understand the point, but what QUALITY is there in death?

CLARK: A person your children look up to, or admire? Is this really the type of example you want set?
*It won't be an example. As I pointed out in my last post, most people DON'T opt for suicide, whether they make a gesture toward it or never do. The will to live is strong in humans.

Yes, the will is strong- however, why do you wish to undermine that? Maybe people don't opt for suicide NOW becuase of the oppoisition to it. There is a huge stigma involved with suicide, not only religious, but secular- you argue for removing this stigma and thus making it more acceptable for people to end their own life. As you and I have no doubt, if someone wants to kill themselves, there is very little we can actually do to stop that determination- however, we do not have to say that such acts are acceptable or even tolerable- which is what is at the heart of of what you argue for.

Considering that death is final, I doubt "Let's Play Suicide!" will ever become a fashionable trend

Tatoo's are pretty final... they are a fashion trend.

ME: Most anti-euthanasia sentiments have come about from religious sentiment that persons who commit suicide go straight to hell.
CLARK: True, but as you might notice, I am not refrencing God in any way.
*Yeah, I know you aren't. But that's where many peoples' anti-euthanasia sentiments come from; whether or not you are religious, you, I, and everyone else has been influenced by religious sentiment either directly or indirectly, considering it is a very strong part of our societal environment -- especially in the USA.

And?

*I'd rather see a mother like that committing suicide rather than drowning her kids, like Andrea Yates did.

As would I, however that is not a justification in and of itself.

*But if you disapprove of suicide and feel society should enforce its prevention, then you naturally would prefer to have people suffer. I'm not insinuating that you are sadistic; however, it's either/or.

No, it is not. I do not prefer people to suffer. I do not prefer murder. Just becuase I believe people should not kill themselves does not mean that I do not believe we should try to ease their suffering- I am only stating that i disagree and find it immpermissible that they would choose to end their suffering in a certain and very final way.

CLARK: Are you implying our response should be, "oj, you feel bad? Well, go ahead and end it all so you won't feel bad anymore."
*Oh, give me a break! OJ doesn't feel bad. He's too busy golfing and banging his latest blond, white girlfriend to be out there "looking for the REAL killers [of Nicole and Ron]."

Sorry, typo- did not mean to say oj- i was trying to type "oh". It was a general statment that your argument suggests we should make to those who want to kill themselves.

*No, they can't. Death is final -- most people won't go that far.

And what do you base this bit of wisdom on? People starve themselves everyday, many to the point of death. People often go further than you imagine.

ME: Who are you to say this isn't so?
CLARK: A loud mouth with more sense.
*That's not a reason. And I think I've got more sense than you.

Perhaps. But I believe I do have you at least reconsidering... no?

CLARK: Apparently you have certain "standards" that you would live under- how is ending your life going to bring about those standards?
*The standards may not be brought about anyway.

So then what purpose does your suicide then serve? None. It is a meaningless act- so much for your dignity. What dignity is there in a meaningless death?

ME: I'd rather have the dignity of taking my own life than allow a group of persons [enemy] to take it from me.
CLARK: If someone is intent on killing you and you beat them to the punch, they have still murdered you- they forced you to die.
*I'd rather it be at my own hand than at their hand. That, to me, is an expression of self-love and dignity.

But this isn't suicide- this is murder- they force you into only one option- death. You will die irregardless of any action you take- so this dosen't apply.

Canth · 2002-07-09 15:17:42

I agree with you totally clark. Human Life Has Intrinsic Value.

People cannot be encouraged to kill themselves who don't want to.

Have you heard about Okinawa in WWII, almost the entire population killed themselves when the americans took the island simply because Japanese culture said it was better to die than to be captured. They knew that they would not be subjected to atrocities, and yet they killed themselves, and in many cases their families. The allied POWs in japenese hands while horribly brutalized and often killed rarely killed themselves, they knewthey wouldsuffer a fate worse than death and yet chose to try to live. Beleive me if society condones suicide many many people will commit it. By the way even the Catholic Church condones suicide in the face of certain torture and death, they are one of the most conservative right to life groups out there.

Anyway there is no need to waste space and controversy on cyanide capsules for a mars mission. It is easy enough to inject your self with a fatal combination or overdose of drugs, or pop your suit helmet, or kill yourself with one of the many dangerous objects along for the trip.

Palomar · 2002-07-09 15:35:15

Canth: I agree with you totally clark. Human Life Has Intrinsic Value.

*Did Hitler's life have intrinsic value? What about Jeffrey Dahmer -- did his life have intrinsic value? Andrea Yates drowned her 5 little children -- does her life have intrinsic value? More importantly -- how do you define "intrinsic value"?

People cannot be encouraged to kill themselves who don't want to.
Canth: Have you heard about Okinawa in WWII, almost the entire population killed themselves when the americans took the island simply because Japanese culture said it was better to die than to be captured. They knew that they would not be subjected to atrocities, and yet they killed themselves, and in many cases their families.
*I'm not talking about ignorant, uneducated people following the commands of their leaders on a collective basis via collective submission. I'm talking about an INDIVIDUAL making their own DECISION to commit suicide.
Canth: The allied POWs in japenese hands while horribly brutalized and often killed rarely killed themselves, they knewthey wouldsuffer a fate worse than death and yet chose to try to live.
*Which proves my point that the will to live is strong in most humans, thus most will NOT opt for it, and thus it'll never become a fad or trend.
Canth: Beleive me if society condones suicide many many people will commit it.
*If an isolated, propagandized society constantly presses the issue onto its people, they might very well kill themselves en masse for "the cause." But that's not what I'm talking about; you're taking this out of context. I'm speaking of individual decision coming about from the individual's desire. I'm *not* talking about people committing suicide because they were told to do so.
Canth: By the way even the Catholic Church condones suicide in the face of certain torture and death, they are one of the most conservative right to life groups out there.
*Interesting.
Canth: Anyway there is no need to waste space and controversy on cyanide capsules for a mars mission.
*If you think this controversy is a waste of time and space you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
--Cindy

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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