Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

Byron · 2004-02-03 06:20:36

Um, nope. Turns out that this guy owns both the Moon and Mars. Additionally, he owns every planet and every other moon in the solar system. Does that include ones that we haven't discovered yet?
Dennis Hope claimed ownership to all of them back in 1980, and is now selling plots of land to anyone interested. Not that it's really of much use. It turns out that Virgiliu Pop now claims ownership to the sun, and claims that anyone who purchases property on a planet or moon in the solar system must pay him a "utility fee" for their daily sunlight. Isn't capitalism great!

Since this subject seems to be attracting a lot of attention as of late, I figured this would make a good thread-starter. (Quote pulled from "will Beagle find..." by Mad Grad.)

First of all, it is my strong opinion that deeds to any property this is not of this Earth be immediately declared null and void by one or more nations. I just cannot believe that anyone can have the authority to claim property that hasn't even been physically surveyed and recorded in a legal jurisdication. Anyone that believes otherwise has been fooled by a wily entrepreneur who has made millions off his "product," which is nothing more than a fancy piece of paper. It'd be like someone claiming the oceans and charging tolls for ships, or claiming the airspace over the oceans and barring airplanes from going through it.

The reason why the United States hasn't done anything about this loon is because there hasn't been any real reason to prevent someone selling a "novelty" item for so-called "entertainment purposes," which is how they perceive Lunar Embassy and other companies selling off-Earth "deeds." But you can bet your bottom dollar that once America or some other nation starts putting people and bases on the Moon and Mars, that land will be under the control of the people that actually occupy that land. If Mr. Hope wants to sue NASA...more power to him...but he'll be leaving the courtroom as a loser, not to mention all those people who might think they actually own a piece of the Moon or Mars.

If you look at the history of human settlement of this planet, private ownership of property has come about *after* the land had orginally been claimed by a higher authority, like England staking claims to portions of North America. There was no way that a European, for example, could claim a section of North America and sell pieces of it to other people without actually taking physical possession of the property from the King or whatever. In short, private property doesn't exist unless someone is actually physically present to stake a claim to it under national jurisdiction and/or legal authority. Since space hasn't been placed under any kind of national or super-national legal authority, staking claims in space is completely irrevelent, which is compounded by the fact that the "owner" hasn't even been there in person to survey the property (which is a *must* for establishing legal ownership of a piece of property, which is then recorded in the public records, etc.)

So...what do you guys think about all of this...?? Should space "property" be declared null and void, thus saving people from wasting their money on worthless peices of paper, or is this just a trivial matter that's not even worth bothering with... ???

Any and all opinions on this topic will be highly welcomed...

B

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-03 07:45:41

Hi Byron!
Methinks thou knowest not what thou hast done!

You may have unwittingly opened a very large can of worms here, Byron. People like Josh are anarchists, others are Marxists, and they believe all property is theft; not just on the Moon or Mars but here on Earth too. They question the very existence of 'property'. They object to ownership of anything!

In a very theoretical way, the North American indians had it right. No man owns the land he stands upon; it owns him. In the world of hunter gatherers that may well be true, but obviously in today's world it has long passed into the annals of quaint philosophy in the face of economic practicalities.
Not, however, to the romantic anarchists among us! And the disenfranchised left-wingers will probably have plenty to say also.

Fair enough, Dennis Hope and Mr. Pop may ultimately be found to be charlatans and rogues, but there are many here who will question anybody's right to sell land on any celestial body at any time. Not so much out of any ethical constraints but because they object politically to the concept of ownership itself and to the concept of sovereign ownership in general.

This is potentially the most contentious thread outside of the Iraq war topic.

Byron · 2004-02-03 07:56:16

This is potentially the most contentious thread outside of the Iraq war topic.

Well, that's what discussion boards are for, aren't they?

While I do believe in private ownership of property (otherwise private enterprise won't work, i.e. communism), I just think people like Mr. Hope are putting the cart ahead of the horse, as how can one claim property they can't get to yet? That's really the crux of the issue from my personal perspective...

B

clark · 2004-02-03 08:02:37

I come across a farthing, a penny, a euro, or a shilling lying in the middle of a public street; who does the unit of currency belong to?

Well, if I we're honest, then I might say that this coin belongs to someone else. Afterall, it didn't get there by itself. So perhaps I try to find the owner, I try to return this lost gain.

I do, and no one shows up to claim it. Is the coin mine now? How did it suddenly pass into my possession and ownership? By what right do I have to change in the money for goods and services? What right do I have to even consider giving, or trading someone else the coin?

Is it mine becuase I control it, or becuase everyone agrees that I 'own' it? Previous ownership and rightful deed are unknown. Not many would contest my ownership of a penny.

What if we're talking about a billion dollars?

Well, if I found a billion in the street, and for the sake of argument, no one could be found to claim it, wouldn't it be mine then? Why? Afterall, the money was found on a public street- the Public owns the street. Shouldn't anything found on the Public street worth any value be given over to the Public?

Lot's of new questions, but the answers are all the same.

The Moon, Mars, or any celestial body is the same as finding a penny, a farthing, or even a billion dollars in the street. Those who grasp it first, for all intents and purposes, will own it.

Of course that means nothing to the Alley Mugger's looking to take everything you 'own'. These guys hocking space parcels are just criminals- selling penny's they haven't found yet.

Palomar · 2004-02-03 08:17:46

I just think people like Mr. Hope are putting the cart ahead of the horse, as how can one claim property they can't get to yet? That's really the crux of the issue from my personal perspective...
B

*Um, yeah...minor difficulty there (understatement).

As for "charging for sunlight": Whatcha gonna do when people don't pay up? Turn off the sun? Stop the celestial body the nonpayer is on from rotating?

IMO, Hope and Pop are mere sensationalist money-grubbing attention seekers. Hope can claim to own the entire Solar System, except Earth: Fine, I claim ownership of the entire Milky Way Galaxy (except the Solar System and Earth). Nyaaaaaaaa! :laugh:

Hmmmmm, it might turn out that radiation IS the Solar System's best friend!

--Cindy

Algol · 2004-02-03 10:05:41

Im claiming ownership of all interplanetary space in the solar system.

From now on all probes and missions will need to pay my tolls to pass through my space. In fact the planets as they move through the solar system will also be charged, and the moon too!

MUAHAHAHAHA

Palomar · 2004-02-03 10:11:39

Im claiming ownership of all interplanetary space in the solar system.
From now on all probes and missions will need to pay my tolls to pass through my space. In fact the planets as they move through the solar system will also be charged, and the moon too!
MUAHAHAHAHA

*LOL!!!!

That was great, Algol! :laugh:

I needed that today! Thanks...

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2004-02-03 11:36:09

I say go for it. See how far you get.

earthboundmisfit · 2004-03-24 20:45:04

If you think that NASA or some government organization, domestic or foreign is going to colonize anything extrateran you are fooling yourself. There will be no 'public push' of any kind for space exploration. Most of the world does not believe that we ever went to the moon.

One day, someone who has the desire will aquire the money, build a ship, and fly away.

Will others follow?

They always do.

Owner, 2000 Acres, Mars

Byron · 2004-03-25 06:04:20

Most of the world does not believe that we ever went to the moon.

Huh? I find that rather difficult to believe...there may be a *few* folks out there that think the Apollo missions were a giant hoax, but I honestly do not think this number comes anywhere close to being a majority.

But yeah, I tend to agree that it won't be NASA that will be settling space...as that's not their job. But it's going be a very long time yet before private interests will have the means to actually develop the technology and infrastructure to actually settle on a whole new world.

B

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#1 2004-02-03 06:20:36

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#2 2004-02-03 07:45:41

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#3 2004-02-03 07:56:16

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#4 2004-02-03 08:02:37

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#5 2004-02-03 08:17:46

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#6 2004-02-03 10:05:41

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#7 2004-02-03 10:11:39

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#8 2004-02-03 11:36:09

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#9 2004-03-24 20:45:04

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

#10 2004-03-25 06:04:20

Re: Selling property in space - should it be allowed??

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