Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-03-18 11:07:27

I'll explain it in one, robin hood, we rob from the richest and give to the martians, the only way to keep mars project alive

but honestly, there are many good plans for the future. Space Commercialization and Space tourism company are showing how to keep the explorations open while making money.

martian4u · 2004-03-19 05:40:01

HZ man, I suggest you join the yahoo group and see all the messages i posted to understand what im talking about, I really dont have time to explain it all over again to one single skeptic and i really would thank you if for once you adopted an inquisitve and open attitude instead of ranting.

C M Edwards · 2004-03-19 13:11:14

You're proposing a business venture.

Can you please state your basic financial plan?

martian4u · 2004-03-19 21:13:45

Hi Edwards and Steve!

first i will reply to edwards, see i fully understand this is a business venture and it requires a business plan , however i am of the opinion, that one person's ideas and plans are not enough and you need everyones inputs to develop a formal solid business plan, therefore i have decided to wait a while and get more people involved in this to actually scrutinise the ideas and then forumulate a real business plan, that is why i have asked everybody to join the yahoo group i have formed ( htttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/martian_cruise )
It will serve as a discussion place for everyone who actually wants to make space colonisation happen than just see it happen! Also, the basic ideas regarding how we plan to do the things are given over there..so i really suggest you join it.

Now coming to Steve, hello man..it does really seem like we are on the same wavelength, NASA has been hogged down by the congress and beaurucracy and i really dont expect it to do anything, also I can already see a government funded mission not only to be overly expensive but also...try to keep everything under the control of USA, in other words another american independence war waiting to happen. A private mission on the other hand does reduce if not completely eliminate those chance. Yes, it is agreed that it will face a lot of skepticisim in the beginning and its a lot of hardwork but in the end it is the way to go. Steve, if you would like to help me out I suggest you join the yahoo group first and start giving your opinions...it has also been formed for scanning talent and inviting to be a part of our organisation (which will incorporate around december)

Thanks,
Rockie aka Martian4u

dicktice · 2004-03-21 12:47:01

Yes, I'm of the opinion that the one and only chance for a Mars Expedition driven by NASA and the U.S. government was missed for all time, with the cancellation of Apollo. Now, we have another go-it-essentually-alone war situation making Mars seem irrelevant. The only NASA alternative is to encourage private/commercial space enterprise. But, the new dangers threatened by the self-proclaimed terrorists make private enterprise yet another avenue for them to use--from space. How about a little more discussion concerning this aspect of flight/orbital-security? There have to be both short-term and long-term solutions to this problem, equivalent to those being undertaken by (1) business and recreational aviation threats (2) cruising yacht threats (3) single-stage-to-space commercial rocketplane ride threats. Folks who are capable of blowing themselves up on purpose sure are hard for those of us (who see the future as more than selfish paradise seeking) to defend ourselves from.

MarsDog · 2004-03-24 03:56:12

It should be a worldwide think tank, scrutinizing all aspects.
Design for safety;
Too many space related mistakes already because of the secrecy.
Similar to worms and viruses in Microsoft.

martian4u · 2004-03-24 12:33:25

hey great to see that you are willing to join, as for the garage scientists, we already have one, my main science guy..his name is Holden, start posting on the boards, I will be among the first to welcome you there:D

Rxke · 2004-03-28 04:03:20

Hi, just a little thumbs-up here for people that want to go the DIY route: you know of course about Space-X? This interesting article on their site: [http://www.spacex.com/index.html?sectio … edia27.php]http://www.spacex.com/index.h....a27.php has the following nice tidbit:
"To celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' flight, Space Exploration Technologies Corp. (SpaceX) trucked its new Falcon I rocket from El Segundo, Calif., to the Smithsonian Institution. SpaceX designed and built the seven-story-tall rocket in the two years since it was founded by Elon Musk, who made a mint as co-founder of PayPal Inc. A bigger, five-engine rocket is due next year. His investment so far? Less than $100 million."

100 million to build a rocket, capable to launch meaninful payload into orbit! (ok, they're not there, yet, but imagine what it would've cost NASA, Boeing et all to do this...)

With a small crack team of highly skilled engineers etc. you can get seriously impressive results... In a very short time, on a shoe-string budget, to boot!

dicktice · 2004-03-28 10:15:07

I wonder what kind of salaries were paid to the team members?

Rxke · 2004-03-28 10:59:46

I bet something like Hi- risk shares?

(and a slice of bread...)

Seriously, i've read some of his 'for hire' announcements, he only wants the best of the best, ...of the best and 'promises' nice things like a potential very hectic working shedule, loss of family life, unpayed overwork etc. etc. Saying if you're in it for the safe 9 to 5 job, get out here fast, we want people that are able to pull things off. It's somewhere on his site, maybe, forgot.

Hey, what the heck, he did awesome things in those two years, with his elite crew of dedicated people...

Martian Republic · 2004-06-13 16:33:03

Don't get me wrong I'm interested in Mars too, but without getting control over the U.S. Government or some other major government, what your talking about doing is impossible.

On another forum I was suggesting that we build a city on Mars and do it in a forty to fifty year time frame, but it was based on having a Pro-Space President like Kennedy. It was based on Federalizing the Federal Reserve, re-arranging the tax code, have a government rite off system for private enterprises and massive government built structures and creating a Constitutional Martian Government of self rule. Any body that thinks they can do it without a major government backing them up is sadly mistaken.

Go to the web site below for more information and read it closely. If you really understand what he saying, then you will understand that without a major government backing this up, it not going to happen.

http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/sp … /space.htm

Your talking about doing something that even the U.S. Government can’t do in it present form. So one of those other people on the forum said to me on that other Space forum, your talking about trillions of dollars to build that Mars City. And I said your right, it is going to cost trillion of dollars, that why only the government can do it.

That why you hear so many people that talk about private enterprise in space and about how good it would be and they have these Grandiose Plans of building hotel, generating power, mining, etc, don’t do any thing, they can’t fund it. That why the U.S. Government through NASA could go to the moon, but thirty years later, private enterprise hasn’t copied it. That why any serious private space venture is either a communication satellite or a NASA Contract that some private business got.

I'm sorry it that way, but it is that way and we can not change the rule to suit you because want to chang the rules.

Larry,

Gennaro · 2004-06-16 18:24:27

Martian Republic, I don't even have to read that forum to concur absolutely. Only the state can pull something like this off.

atitarev · 2004-06-16 19:56:31

Don't get me wrong I'm interested in Mars too, but without getting control over the U.S. Government or some other major government, what your talking about doing is impossible.
On another forum I was suggesting that we build a city on Mars and do it in a forty to fifty year time frame, but it was based on having a Pro-Space President like Kennedy. It was based on Federalizing the Federal Reserve, re-arranging the tax code, have a government rite off system for private enterprises and massive government built structures and creating a Constitutional Martian Government of self rule. Any body that thinks they can do it without a major government backing them up is sadly mistaken.
Go to the web site below for more information and read it closely. If you really understand what he saying, then you will understand that without a major government backing this up, it not going to happen.
http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/sp … /space.htm
Your talking about doing something that even the U.S. Government can’t do in it present form. So one of those other people on the forum said to me on that other Space forum, your talking about trillions of dollars to build that Mars City. And I said your right, it is going to cost trillion of dollars, that why only the government can do it.
That why you hear so many people that talk about private enterprise in space and about how good it would be and they have these Grandiose Plans of building hotel, generating power, mining, etc, don’t do any thing, they can’t fund it. That why the U.S. Government through NASA could go to the moon, but thirty years later, private enterprise hasn’t copied it. That why any serious private space venture is either a communication satellite or a NASA Contract that some private business got.
I'm sorry it that way, but it is that way and we can not change the rule to suit you because want to chang the rules.
Larry,

Billions - yes, trillions - no.

If the initiative is given to private enterprises much more can be achieved.

In Robert Zubrin's estimates - a full blown mission to Mars could be made for a minimum of 5 billion dollars. It won't go over 20 billion - if done by NASA may cost half a trillion. $20 billion is a lot of money in the real world.

Building the first Martian city would cost 50 billion maximum if given to private companies. The problem is noone is going to make this offer, even with the latest initiatives announced.

MarsDog · 2004-06-17 13:41:17

Most in NASA will soon retire, and the new employees will have new ideas. From what I saw on TV, the past few days, it is going to be slow and steady. Just as well, and give others time to get involved. US fumbled the ball before, but now, is starting to set the beginnings for a new Space Culture.
-
Quick to Mars might get us there 10 years sooner, but at the risk of exhaustion, as happened in the race to the Moon.

~Eternal~ · 2004-06-18 21:51:00

Here is how you should've done the topic:
"I am very impressed by the content of the websites redcolony.com and marssociety.org and there is without a doubt in my mind, that quite a few of you have the potential to let us achieve our mission to colonize the red planet

I would, like to inform you about the Mars Frontier private space industry. We arose out of the chaos of President George W. Bush?s plan to send us back to the Moon. While the moon does hold great aspects of the need of humanity, Mars is of greater importance. Mars give us the ability to create a self-sustaining world, which could provide Earth, the Moon, and Mars with much of the material we need to survive as a species.

We recognize the importance of the International Space Station to the study of zero gravity and to provide further information about living in space in general. However, we also believe that it is critical to the development of the ISS to be privatized and be under control by those willing to invest into it.

We, at Mars Frontier, have decided that while NASA is left to its internal affairs that we will set up a Mars Direct style mission Mars, we at Mars Frontier are inspired to follow in the works of Zubrin to establish a self-sustainable colony on Mars, but first to explore the red planet at a close.

Our mission statement is to provide the world with a viable plan to colonize extraterrestrial worlds within our lifetime and if possible perform these actions. Mars Frontier plans to publicize its existence as a public industry involved in aerospace and astronautics within ten years time. This will give us sufficient time to construct a business infrastructure and develop the resources needed to increase public awareness of Mars Direct.

We optimistically wish to seek out those who specialize in geology, biology, astronomy, physics, and engineering.

To collect profit, we plan to allow investors to collect shares upon on our company. If you would like to contact us you can find us at,

mail@marsfrontier.org"

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2022-04-15 08:09:27)

Martian Republic · 2004-06-19 10:31:57

Martian Republic, I don't even have to read that forum to concur absolutely. Only the state can pull something like this off.

There are not very many people that agree with us. But the government both creates wealth and they promote the creation of wealth in the private sector and without a major government that supports and advances building space colonies, then it is basically dead in the water and we will go nowhere with space colonies. I don’t like it either some times, but that the way it is.

Larry,

Martian Republic · 2004-06-19 11:33:18

Don't get me wrong I'm interested in Mars too, but without getting control over the U.S. Government or some other major government, what your talking about doing is impossible.
On another forum I was suggesting that we build a city on Mars and do it in a forty to fifty year time frame, but it was based on having a Pro-Space President like Kennedy. It was based on Federalizing the Federal Reserve, re-arranging the tax code, have a government rite off system for private enterprises and massive government built structures and creating a Constitutional Martian Government of self rule. Any body that thinks they can do it without a major government backing them up is sadly mistaken.
Go to the web site below for more information and read it closely. If you really understand what he saying, then you will understand that without a major government backing this up, it not going to happen.
http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/sp … /space.htm
Your talking about doing something that even the U.S. Government can’t do in it present form. So one of those other people on the forum said to me on that other Space forum, your talking about trillions of dollars to build that Mars City. And I said your right, it is going to cost trillion of dollars, that why only the government can do it.
That why you hear so many people that talk about private enterprise in space and about how good it would be and they have these Grandiose Plans of building hotel, generating power, mining, etc, don’t do any thing, they can’t fund it. That why the U.S. Government through NASA could go to the moon, but thirty years later, private enterprise hasn’t copied it. That why any serious private space venture is either a communication satellite or a NASA Contract that some private business got.
I'm sorry it that way, but it is that way and we can not change the rule to suit you because want to chang the rules.
Larry,
Billions - yes, trillions - no.
If the initiative is given to private enterprises much more can be achieved.
In Robert Zubrin's estimates - a full blown mission to Mars could be made for a minimum of 5 billion dollars. It won't go over 20 billion - if done by NASA may cost half a trillion. $20 billion is a lot of money in the real world.
Building the first Martian city would cost 50 billion maximum if given to private companies. The problem is noone is going to make this offer, even with the latest initiatives announced.

Have you gone to that web link?

I'm also a pro-build a levitated national train system throughout the entire United States. If we started today with a crash program to build that entire levitated train system inside the United States it would take twenty to thirty years to build it and it would by itself cost over one trillion dollars. It would be easier and probably cheaper to do that than build a city on Mars of even ten thousand let alone hundred thousand people.

I have looked Robert Zubrin's estimates of what it would take to get to Mars and even assuming that he is right about the cost, he is only talking about four to six people on Mars, which does not constitute a Martian settlement. They will stay there two year and then leave like the Apollo Mission, but the time frame will be two years instead of three or four days. Then we send another habituate out there with four to six people and it will take between two to four "C" launches to send those people to Mars too. Even after we get a refining station on Mars so we could refuel and send them back to the earth we will still have to launch two "C" shuttle to keep six people on Mars. The more people you put on Mars, the more "C" shuttle you will have to launch to keep them supplied. The only way to get around the problem is have a National Government that controls it own money supply and they make a national mission goal statement like Kennedy did for going to the Moon. You do that and it going to be big and it going to be expensive like building a levitated super train system hear in the United States, but there no other way to do it.

Now don't get me wrong, private enterprise can do of lot great things and there are places where private enterprise would be the best way to go, but there not going to develop space by themselves. Let take Space Island Group and there space station in orbit, it a good idea and I will even agree that that is what we need to do to open up space. But why aren't they doing it? They can't afford it and they figure it going to be twelve billion dollars to build that space station in low earth orbit and not Mars. You can go right down the line of all these private ventures and there all suffering from the same problem, no money and if people did invest in there operation, they could not pay them back, because it not cost effective and they would lose there money if they do invest in it. For over thirty years they have been yelling that private enterprise can do. Yes, they can do it. So stop bragging about being able to do it and "JUST DO"! You can brag latter if you did it, but do it first and then you got bragging privileges.

Most private enterprise operation are generally based around government built infrastructure like roads, air port, water & sewer system, etc. The government generally builds the road and then the private enterprise people populate that stretch of the road with business or houses and not the other way around. It need to be that way in space too and then things will take off as to building space colonies on the Moon, Mars, etc. Even most private space enterprise seek government contracts, because they are the only ones that can afford to buy there services and not people like me. Why isn’t Robert Zubrin building his space ship to Mars, well it going to cost twenty to thirty million dollars and Robert Zubrin doesn’t have the money.

Larry,

atitarev · 2004-06-20 02:41:12

Sorry, Martian Republic, I didn't delve into it. You're probably right but I'll quote R. Zubrin again: "Let's get the baby out of the operation room alive first and worry about which college she goes to later." We're stuck at the moment - only talking but no human missions are planned yet. We could start with a small colony - then build cities. People need to learn to survive on Mars first - grow food, extract oxygen, build protection from radiation and cold.

No projects will ever get get started if the politicians hear about billion dollar budgets. We should ask for what's achievable. Continuous human missions to Mars are achievable and affordable.

Scroll down to NASA-ESA Study Shows Mars Direct Affordable
http://www.marssociety.com/]The Mars Society page

bolbuyk · 2004-07-01 06:24:19

Luigi -- that was also the name of the green guy Scott and Irwin met on the Moon!!

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#26 2004-03-18 11:07:27

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#27 2004-03-19 05:40:01

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#28 2004-03-19 13:11:14

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#29 2004-03-19 21:13:45

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#30 2004-03-21 12:47:01

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#31 2004-03-24 03:56:12

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#32 2004-03-24 12:33:25

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#33 2004-03-28 04:03:20

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#34 2004-03-28 10:15:07

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#35 2004-03-28 10:59:46

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#36 2004-06-13 16:33:03

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#37 2004-06-16 18:24:27

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#38 2004-06-16 19:56:31

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#39 2004-06-17 13:41:17

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#40 2004-06-18 21:51:00

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#41 2004-06-19 10:31:57

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#42 2004-06-19 11:33:18

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#43 2004-06-20 02:41:12

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

#44 2004-07-01 06:24:19

Re: Mars - LETS DO IT without NASA

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