New Mars Forums

chaosman

Member

From: Germany

Registered: 2004-02-22

Posts: 39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

The latest results on ALH84001 brought some very strong evidence for bacteria. See for yourself:

[http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/astrobiology/b … -28-01.pdf]http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/astrobi....-01.pdf

Muliticellular Life ???

Why not ?

We have no example for what happened on mars.

Billions of years of evolution of a whole planet under water shortage conditions...bringing certain kinds of evolutionary pressure ( need for UV protection or nearly water dense hull,...).

It's hard to tell.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Test.

I'm seeing in "new post" :'Chaosman@22.30' but when i visit the topic, the last post i see is  Graemeskinner's...

Corrupt thread?

Edit: Huh? Now Chaosman is back...

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Errr... Chaosman...

"Edited by Bruce Watson, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY, and approved December 18, 2000 (received for review October 22, 2000)"

That's not recent, is it? Hasn't there been a loooooong yes/no/yes/no discussion going on after the publication of that paper?
Is ths still the 'official' explanation? Or has it been 'discredited'
Of course, after Opp's findings, they might take a second hard look... In favour of the paper!

Shaun Barrett

Member

From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Thanks guys, for the encouraging comments! It can get quite lonely here on the sparsely populated 'Yes There's Life On Mars' side of the fence, and every so often I've had to examine my position and ask myself if I'm really being rational about my opinions. Your feedback is much appreciated because it helps me to calibrate my impressions of reality!
                                               

    Atomoid, I think your take on the martian situation is quite close to my own, the main difference being just how active any martian life may be under present climatic constraints. I have to confess, I probably tend to underestimate the probable effects on microbes of the appalling cold on that chilly little planet! But then again, terrestrial micro-organisms have shown us how tough life can be and we don't really know much about the temperature profile of the upper martian crust. There may be vast colonies of bacteria living in warmer conditions at depth in the crust, with populations becoming thinner and reduced to fewer and hardier species the closer we get to the hostile surface.
    Isn't it feasible, then, that certain very rugged microbes, capable of many months of cryo-hibernation if need be, might occupy the ecological niche immediately below the surface, where more thermophilic species fear to tread? These hardy creatures might spend much of their time totally dormant (as you suggest) and then pack "a lifetime into every minute" when ground temperatures rise fleetingly above freezing at certain times of the martian year and day.
    Terrestrial bacteria have taught us that wherever there's the remotest chance of life, there'll be life!

    Graeme, I understand where you're coming from, I think! You tend to take the purist's view of scientists; regarding them as selfless bastions of objective logic. I agree with you absolutely that that's how it's supposed to be!
    But over the years, I've come to realise that most scientists are as flawed as the rest of us and just as vulnerable to the 'dark side' of human emotions. I believe (though it's debatable, I know) that the way the Viking data, and Dr. Gil Levin, have been treated over the last quarter century is less than purely scientific. I daren't go into details again here and now because I've bored my other friends at New Mars too many times with the same refrain and I fear a lynching party would almost certainly be organised to shut me up for good!!      :laugh:
    Unfortunately though, there is such a thing as a 'paradigm edifice', established by the originally genuine efforts of a single scientist, or group of them, which gradually becomes holy writ and cannot easily be challenged. The longer such an edifice exists, the harder it is to break it down, no matter how shaky its foundations may have become over the years. Eventually, the only possible outcome is the complete collapse of the structure, rather than the more normal gradual remodelling which is to be found in the case of less emotive scientific hypotheses.
    As long as no life is discovered on Mars, the fact that so many eminent scientists have relied for so long on the data from an unsuitable instrument (the GCMS) will continue to be overlooked. The fact that this failure of logic was then exacerbated by a fruitless decades-long search for super-oxide soil chemistry to explain the Labeled Release Experiment results will also fade from memory. "What's the difference .. there's no life anyway. They got the main point right, didn't they?"
    But if active microbial colonies are found in the soils of Mars, including at Chryse and Utopia where the Viking probes still stand, how different the picture will be! "You mean these guys discovered life with the LR experiment? And that guy ... what's his name again .. Levin ... tried to convince 'em for over twenty years .. but they wouldn't listen? Sheesh! What a bunch of jerks!"
    What human being, whether an objective scientist or not, wants to be branded a jerk?

    Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Just more musings!
                                             

---

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

chaosman

Member

From: Germany

Registered: 2004-02-22

Posts: 39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Ups...I thought it was the most recent. Or is it ?

I meant a recent (2003) paper stating that the geometry and orientation (in chains) of magnetite crystals inside the ALH globules can only be explained by the action of bacteria.

I will google again and come back later...
Does anyone else remember ?

Yes there was a back and forth on this topic for quite a while, but since that relatively recent paper there was no more "against life paper" coming up.

chaosman

Member

From: Germany

Registered: 2004-02-22

Posts: 39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I found a siencedaily announcment of the paper.

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 065947.htm]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 065947.htm

Shaun Barrett

Member

From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Hi Chaosman!
    Perhaps you were looking for [http://cooltech.iafrica.com/space/300697.htm]THIS STORY about an Australian scientist and his dog?

    According to this Aussie, there is no doubt at all that magnetotactic microbes existed on Mars 4 billion years ago. The evidence he has accumulated, in his view, is conclusive.
                                        :up:

---

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Can someone again please post any conclusive evidence that this ALH meterorite actually came from Mars? I guess I must have missed it when the meteorite was announced a while back, and I remain a skeptic.

Stu

Member

From: Kendal, Cumbria, England

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 318

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Shaun,

My canoe is paddling alongside yours all the way my friend, whatever rapids come up ahead of us. 

I have been absolutely convinced that there's life on Mars for as long as I can remember, certainly long before all this luvverly evidence for a warm and wet ancient Mars started coming in. I've given my views and stood up for me beliefs in print in magazines and newspapers, on radio shows, even on TV a couple of times. I have been doubted, questioned, interrogated, laughed at politely, ridiculed openly, called ten different kinds of fanatic/weirdo/optimist/whatever and still, STILL I believe, and every mission and every picture from every probe just convinces me even more deeply that this feeling I have in my gut is right, that there's life there. Maybe in the soil, maybe deep underground. Maybe sheltering in cold, submartian aquifers, maybe clinging to existence on the edges of hot springs hidden in the depths of the Mariner Valley. I don't know. All I know is that something tells me that Mars isn't dead, and that sooner or later one of these robotic ambassadors of ours is going to find the proof everyone *else* needs  That's why the loss of Beagle was so crushing for me personally. I was sure it was going to send back that proof.

It's hard to explain, it really is. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just kidding myself, being too optimistic, seeing shapes in the clouds as it were. But other times I just have a feeling that I can't shake off, you know? That feeling was especially strong last August when Mars was so big and bright in my telescope, and in the telescopes of the members of my astronomical society. After an evening of illustrated lectures, we held a public Mars Gazing Party up at a local school, and over 200 people came along to be shown Mars through our telescopes. And every time I sneaked a peek, and saw the little orange disc shimmering in the eyepiece, with the dark shark fin notch of Syrtis Major at its centre, I just knew that I was looking at a world that has, and hides, life.

Like I said, hard to explain, I'm going to stop trying. Just wanted you to know that there's at least one more canoeist out here paddling frantically against the currents of skepticism...  :;):

---

Stuart Atkinson

Skywatching Blog: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/Cumbrian-Sky[/url]

Astronomical poetry, including mars rover poems: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse[/url]

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

The images from todays press conference have now been posted at:
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 0305a.html]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....5a.html

This is the coolest one - a false color south panarama view outside the crater, showing Endurance crater, the heatshield (and impact spot), all the bouncemarks of the airbags, and the only rock on the plains - which Opportunity managed to strike as it bounced.  :laugh: [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … R1_br2.jpg]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....br2.jpg

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … _17]Spirit finds EVIDENCE OF PAST WATER ACTIVITY in volcanic rock! 

"The findings came from aggressive study of a rock dubbed 'Humphrey' that Spirit came across en route from its landing site to a big crater named 'Bonneville,' Arvidson told a Jet Propulsion Laboratory news conference..."

--Cindy

::EDIT::  As for Opportunity:

"Jim Bell, lead scientist for the rovers' panoramic cameras, also said Opportunity had photographed a solar eclipse caused by the passage of the martian moon Deimos across the sun, but scientists were waiting for images to be sent to Earth."

*I can't wait for those pics! 

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Here's one of the pictures of the eclipse:

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 66R8M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....8M1.JPG (pretty small)

Josh Cryer

Moderator

Registered: 2001-09-29

Posts: 3,830

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Hmm, Deimos is quite visible on that image. I wonder how much bigger Phobos would be in contrast. That's awesome.

---

Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Shaun Barrett

Member

From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Yeah! It is surprising that Deimos is so obvious against the Sun. It's such a tiny little satellite, after all.
                                       

    Thanks, Stu, for stating your position ... seated firmly in a canoe going the same way that is!!
                                      :up:   

---

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

chaosman

Member

From: Germany

Registered: 2004-02-22

Posts: 39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Very good outcrop layering/ marble color images here:

[http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=90]http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=90

What do you think ?

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

OFF TOPIC
Sorry for the off-topic, but you can't miss this image!!!
[http://marsunearthed.com/MarsExpress/Ma … _3D%20.htm]3d Olympus!!!

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

3d marble-on-stem!
Enjoy them!

[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini/gambo3d1.JPG]Marble on stem 3d  - 1

[http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini/gambo3d2.JPG]Marble on stem 3d - 2

Done with [http://www3.zero.ad.jp/esuto/stphmkr/index_e.htm]SteroPhoto Maker

Luca

P.S.
Please note that these are hazcam images, you could get a bit of headache looking at them... 

Yang Liwei Rocket

Member

Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

past the mid-point mark

more than half way there?

---

'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

past the mid-point mark

more than half way there?

oo er...

Its starting to look steep already. see latest pancam

Arccos

Member

From: Czechia

Registered: 2004-01-07

Posts: 46

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I can't be sure about that (the picture comes with no caption) but I think this newest Spirits's pic shows the far rim of Boneville with the fallen heat shield!!! wow!

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 17L0M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....0M1.JPG

---

My knowledge of the English language is poor - but still I'm here .

remcook

Banned

Registered: 2004-01-07

Posts: 78

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

pancam image of the heatshield please! 

..and the bottom of the crater while he's at it ...
this is soooo exciting!

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

OFF TOPIC
Sorry for the off-topic, but you can't miss this image!!!
[http://marsunearthed.com/MarsExpress/Ma … _3D%20.htm]3d Olympus!!!

*Terrific! 

Unfortunately, takes a while to download...

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Arccos

Member

From: Czechia

Registered: 2004-01-07

Posts: 46

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Ok! We peer into the crater!

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 43R0M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....0M1.JPG

And we can see... we can see... nothing? Yes, Boneville is empty, no outcrops, no cliffs.

Magnificent view anyway!

---

My knowledge of the English language is poor - but still I'm here .

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Ok! We peer into the crater!
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 43R0M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....0M1.JPG
And we can see... we can see... nothing? Yes, Boneville is empty, no outcrops, no cliffs.
Magnificent view anyway!

There looks to be a couple of areas worth a closer look however, towards the far side perhaps. Plus we can only see a part of the crater in this image, there could be other areas worthy of a closer look when we see the full interior.

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

No life on Mars

Banned

From: Newyork

Registered: 2004-02-25

Posts: 50

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Bonneville panorama [http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/03 … le.lrg.jpg]Bonneville