The Saturn V

Palomar · 2004-02-14 11:52:21

*Check out my signature line, if you haven't already. Included in that article is this (damn, do I envy the people who were actually there -- especially Steve!):

---

"It's Alive!"

A number of witnesses have sworn that the Saturn V was more like a living being than an inanimate machine during the final hours of countdown. The rocket appeared to inhale and exhale as noisy feed lines fed oxidizer and fuel to the Saturn's three stages and wispy clouds of evaporated rocket propellants wheezed from vents and condensed as water vapor. Engines, motors, and pneumatic devices hummed in a chorus of technology as the working components of the LUT flawlessly performed necessary "life sustaining" services for the Saturn. There was little room for error. The Saturn V held the explosive potential of a small nuclear device.

A Destination for Space Pioneers

Thousands of engineers and technical workers dedicated themselves to making the work performed by the LUT look easy. One of these workers was a young engineer by the name of Steve Coester. His job was to fill the liquid hydrogen tanks. "My favorite Apollo memory was performing my final walk down off the LUT just before launching Apollo 11," said Steve.

"We were so aware of the enormity of what we were about to do. The MSS (Mobile Servicing Structure) had been rolled back revealing the enormous Saturn V to full view. It was after dark and the spotlights were casting their cones of illumination on the stack. I was virtually alone on the tower as I examined every component of the LH2 (liquid hydrogen) system to be as sure as I could that 'my' system would do its job. It was just me and the Saturn V with a bright moon overhead. I would look at the moon, then at the rocket and think, 'I don't want to be anywhere but right where I am right now.'"

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-15 00:58:19

I still can't believe the reliability of these incredible machines! They never once failed.
I know there are countless superlatives used to describe their size and power but one statistic stays in my mind and never ceases to amaze me: At full throttle, the five F-1 engines of the first stage burned a combined total of 15 tonnes of fuel per second!!

(You get a pretty good idea of the horsepower of these babies when you consider that first stage burned for 165 seconds and developed 7,500,000 lbs of thrust in the process ... breathtaking! )

Byron · 2004-02-15 06:40:17

At full throttle, the five F-1 engines of the first stage burned a combined total of 15 tonnes of fuel per second!!

Wow...(shakes head in wonder)...

Talk about some power, huh?

B

DonPanic · 2004-02-15 16:02:10

LO
I'm afraid that more than half the subcontractors companies which were parts of Saturn V building do not exist anymore

RobS · 2004-02-15 21:37:33

Regarding the flames produced by different rockets, the Saturn V first stage burned kerosene and LOX, and hydrocarbon fuels burn yellow or orange. But hydrogen/oxygen produces a pale blue flame instead, which looks almost invisible. That's why some rockets "look" powerful and some don't.

-- RobS

Palomar · 2004-02-16 10:14:43

I still can't believe the reliability of these incredible machines! They never once failed.
I know there are countless superlatives used to describe their size and power but one statistic stays in my mind and never ceases to amaze me: At full throttle, the five F-1 engines of the first stage burned a combined total of 15 tonnes of fuel per second!!
(You get a pretty good idea of the horsepower of these babies when you consider that first stage burned for 165 seconds and developed 7,500,000 lbs of thrust in the process ... breathtaking! )

*Geez...I wish I were as knowledgable in those respects as you, Shaun. I'm hoping the DVD I intend to purchase (and some "general" reading I'm doing) will help me acquire some knowledge as well...although I doubt I'll ever be able to match your wits in such matters (partly because high technology stuff is a bit beyond my ken...and to be frank, it gets boring. I do also want a cut-away diagram [poster] of the Saturn V, however; one is available on the 'net).

I mentioned once before, in a different thread and a month ago, my continued amazement at how the Saturn V was "allowed" to be aesthetically pleasing as well (beautiful). Rockets are utilitarian, right? They're not "supposed" to be pretty or whatever. And yet there's the gorgeous Saturn V: Dressed to the nines, both bride -and-
groom on the wedding days of the Earth to the Moon.

It was as if the designer(s) of Saturn V deliberately gave it a touch of genuine grace and splendor, because this was special: We were going to the Moon; the missions and we ourselves deserved a *beautiful* rocket.

I remember, as a little kid, being surprised and saddened that they "made" the Saturn V fall apart not long after launch (the stages). Of course, I understand now (and for a long time) the "why's" of that; but it truly perplexed me as a child [my childish thinking was that it was so beautiful, why couldn't they just let the entire rocket go to the moon?? :laugh: ]

It's the only machine I've ever loved. I don't care much for rockets in general or airplanes, etc. (in aerospace museums I pass those up...booooring).

--Cindy

Byron · 2004-02-16 11:12:47

It's the only machine I've ever loved. I don't care much for rockets in general or airplanes, etc. (in aerospace museums I pass those up...booooring).
--Cindy

And what a machine to love....

B

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-16 19:06:27

I'm really not that knowledgable about Saturn Vs, Cindy, though I do remember a few salient points about them. I think you tend to remember things which make an impression on you and I was 13 years old when Borman, Lovell and Anders orbited the Moon. I'd just turned 14 the month before the first Moon walk.
I loved everything to do with that golden era and lapped up every T.V. broadcast I could find about every mission, not just the BIG one! Of course, it became progressively more difficult to find any T.V. coverage after Apollo 11 because of the 'been there, done that' mentality of the media and most of the public. (What is WRONG with people?! )

I bought a Revell model of the Apollo Command/Service Module and Lunar Excursion Module and lovingly painted and assembled each part, sticking the lettering and little U.S. flags painstakingly in just the right positions. There was a panel representing the lunar surface, on which to stand the LEM, and I painted that to look as close to the colour of Moon soil as possible. There were small figures of astronauts with even smaller visors on their helmets. But each visor I carefully painted in gold, just like the real thing!
That model took pride of place on a table in my bedroom and I would bring it downstairs for each Moon expedition and 'educate' my long-suffering parents about each stage of the missions! :laugh:
I felt they didn't truly understand the mechanics of the journeys and that, somehow, if I could just make them understand the intricacies of the manoeuvres and the precision and distances involved, then they would be as wildly enthusiastic as I was.
My efforts failed! Although they paid lip service to the achievements of Apollo .. "Aren't they clever people" ... I could see in their eyes that they really didn't 'get it'. And all of my life I've seen the same look in so many eyes, which have glazed over as their owner politely stifled a yawn whenever I've said too much about space exploration (and 'too much' doesn't have to be very much, with most people). I rarely speak of space to anyone now, whether a friend or just an acquaintance, even if asked a direct question about it. I keep it down to a '10 second sound bite' with little or no detail because I know the question was only asked out of politeness; they know it's a subject I'm interested in but they know nothing about it and aren't really interested in it themselves. (It's nice of them to ask, I guess.)

That's one of the reasons I enjoy New Mars so much ... I can't see your eyes glaze over and I can't hear you yawning!!

replicant7 · 2004-02-17 10:31:56

hey Shaun....I know exactly what you mean....it seems like so many people are more interested in all the trivial stuff in their lives, rather than to realise the significance of what has been....and continues to be...accomplished in terms of space exploration.
....and yes....Saturn V was magnificent !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-17 18:48:40

Thanks, Replicant7, and welcome to New Mars!

It's great to see so many enthusiastic 'new' people here. Now, if only we can keep this energy going and make sure the Bush space initiative doesn't die on the vine like his old man's did!!

Byron · 2004-02-18 05:42:19

"Apollo 13" the other evening (I'm also currently reading 2 books about that mission). I know the launch in the movie was computer simulation (for the most part?), but I have a question:
Shortly after the initial blast of fire from the engines (very close camera angle), it seems the flames and smoke which roared outward suddenly *reversed* -- as if being sucked back toward the engines. Is that "artistic license" in the movie or did the flames and smoke really behave that way? I've seen a lot of footage of authentic launches of the actual missions, but I don't really recall seeing THAT.

Well, I finally got to see the movie last night...lol I paid very close attention to the blastoff scene (isn't it great?), and I noticed the reverse rocket exhaust effect. To me, it didn't seem like a glitch, although it didn't seem like part of the normal launch, either. I think the fx people put that in to jazz things up a bit, which is what they do in a lot of movies.

As for the rest of the movie (I think I had seen it in bits and pieces, but not the whole thing), I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was amazing how one thing kept happening after another, seemingly without end, and the trio on the Moon-bound rocket had to constantly figure things out on the fly just to survive, as well as all the support people in Houston struggling to get the astronants home as well. I thought Tom Hanks performed one of his best roles ever in playing Jim Lovell...he's fantastic in that role, imo. It was a great film...I wholeheartely give it a "two thumbs up."

What's cool, though, is that I rent movies through Netflix, a dvd-by-mail rental service. You rent movies on the internet, and wait for them to come in the mail, and when you're done, all you have to do is to slip it in the mailer and send it back. Well, it so happens that "Apollo 13" was sent out from the distribution center on Friday, the 13th...and it got here on the 17th, which is four days, the same length of time the astronants had to endure after the explosion on the outbound journey before being able to make it back to Earth. Pretty cool, huh? :;):

B

Palomar · 2004-02-18 06:11:21

Well, I finally got to see the movie last night...lol I paid very close attention to the blastoff scene (isn't it great?), and I noticed the reverse rocket exhaust effect. To me, it didn't seem like a glitch, although it didn't seem like part of the normal launch, either. I think the fx people put that in to jazz things up a bit, which is what they do in a lot of movies.
As for the rest of the movie (I think I had seen it in bits and pieces, but not the whole thing), I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was amazing how one thing kept happening after another, seemingly without end, and the trio on the Moon-bound rocket had to constantly figure things out on the fly just to survive, as well as all the support people in Houston struggling to get the astronants home as well. I thought Tom Hanks performed one of his best roles ever in playing Jim Lovell...he's fantastic in that role, imo. It was a great film...I wholeheartely give it a "two thumbs up."

*I'm glad you enjoyed it, Byron. Thanks for the feedback about the reverse exhaust effect [as if a Saturn V launch would need to be "jazzed up", since it's already beyond mind-shattering!].

One of my favorite scenes in the movie is when Lovell warns his crewmates to "expect a little jolt." They get slammed forward (helmets seeming to crack against the instrument panel in front of them) and Swigert croaks, "That's a little jolt??", then get slammed backwards again.

That's not in the book, btw...either it was written into the script or Lovell shared that memory with the movie's writers and it was included.

I love the launch sequence in that film, and the soundtrack accompanying launch, re-entry, and splashdown is touching as well. Of course, the entire film is terrific (we have it in our video collection).

Lovell may never have gotten to walk on the moon (unfortunate), but he did blast off *twice* in a Saturn V. That's certainly enviable. I'd love to take that ride! I wouldn't care for the perils of re-entry and splashdown (yipes!!), however.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-02-19 10:22:23

I'm really not that knowledgable about Saturn Vs, Cindy, though I do remember a few salient points about them. I think you tend to remember things which make an impression on you and I was 13 years old when Borman, Lovell and Anders orbited the Moon. I'd just turned 14 the month before the first Moon walk.
I loved everything to do with that golden era and lapped up every T.V. broadcast I could find about every mission, not just the BIG one! Of course, it became progressively more difficult to find any T.V. coverage after Apollo 11 because of the 'been there, done that' mentality of the media and most of the public. (What is WRONG with people?! )
I bought a Revell model of the Apollo Command/Service Module and Lunar Excursion Module and lovingly painted and assembled each part, sticking the lettering and little U.S. flags painstakingly in just the right positions. There was a panel representing the lunar surface, on which to stand the LEM, and I painted that to look as close to the colour of Moon soil as possible. There were small figures of astronauts with even smaller visors on their helmets. But each visor I carefully painted in gold, just like the real thing!
That model took pride of place on a table in my bedroom and I would bring it downstairs for each Moon expedition and 'educate' my long-suffering parents about each stage of the missions! :laugh:
I felt they didn't truly understand the mechanics of the journeys and that, somehow, if I could just make them understand the intricacies of the manoeuvres and the precision and distances involved, then they would be as wildly enthusiastic as I was.
My efforts failed! Although they paid lip service to the achievements of Apollo .. "Aren't they clever people" ... I could see in their eyes that they really didn't 'get it'. And all of my life I've seen the same look in so many eyes, which have glazed over as their owner politely stifled a yawn whenever I've said too much about space exploration...

*Shaun, you really should be more devoted to this sort of thing. :;):

And you say "I'm really not that knowledgable about Saturn Vs, Cindy, though I do remember a few salient points about them..."

Riiiiiight. Sure. Whatever you say, Shaun. Eye examinations my foot. :laugh:

I certainly agree with your other comments; I understand that few people are -as- interested/intrigued about this sort of thing...but yes, I am constantly surprised at how many people seem to have very little to no interest whatsoever.

At [http://www.apolloarchive.com]http://www.apolloarchive.com in the "Apollo Image Gallery," click on 13 (under "Click on a subject below for an index of photographs") and check out photo #S70-32990. Left-click on the pic for full-screen enlargement (unfortunately I can't link directly to the pic).

Now THAT is an impressive shot; one of the best pics of a Saturn V I've yet seen.

I also enjoy the predawn "bathed in spotlights" pics of Saturn V...it's as if the humble little spotlights are paying homage to Its Majesty, Royalty of the Rockets. :;):

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Another awesome shot (same directions as the first pic): KSC-70C-1494.

The trucks and cars look like mere toys with the Saturn V looming over them.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-19 20:13:58

Thanks Cindy!
I couldn't get into that Apollo Archives site using your link but I found it using google.
It certainly is a fine photo of the mighty Saturn V! The way it's taken looking up from near the tower makes it all the more imposing.

Palomar · 2004-02-20 06:07:28

Thanks Cindy!
I couldn't get into that Apollo Archives site using your link but I found it using google.

*That was my fault, Shaun. I -always- check links I've made after posting them, to ensure they're accessible. For some reason I neglected to do this yesterday (caught up in my tasks, I guess); I typed "archives" into the link, when it is actually "apolloarchive.com" (singular)...also, on clicking "Edit," a *comma* was "hidden" in the link somehow (not visible on the page, but visible only in Edit mode...weird).

It wasn't your computer.

Sorry. I double-checked; it's working fine now.

Glad you enjoyed the photo. What a treasure trove of Apollo, "all around." Josh referred this site to us not long ago, in the "New Discoveries" thread.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-21 07:47:30

Absolutely no apology necessary, Cindy.

Palomar · 2004-03-03 07:22:52

*Here comes some of my money!

From space.com's "Astronotes" (updated and archived daily in continuous-flow pattern, so will paste and copy here):

"March 2

Save the Saturn V Campaign in Progress

The only remaining Saturn V rocket made completely from stages and spacecraft intended to launch Americans to Earth orbit and the Moon, is the focus of a major restoration effort to begin March 8 in Houston, Texas.

The 363-foot tall booster, which has lain on its side near the entrance to NASA's Johnson Space Center since 1977, has deteoriated due to exposure to the Houston area's regular high humidity, high ozone concentrations and chemical pollution. Small animals have found shelter inside and are responsible for acidic debris and damage.

Half of the $2.5 million required for preservation of the rocket is available from a dollar-for-dollar matching grant from the Save America's Treasures Program. More than $590,000 in matching funds has already been provided or pledged through the fundraising efforts of an independent committee in Houston. An additional $540,000 is required to complete the preservation work.

Public donations toward the restoration of the Houston Saturn V can be mailed to: National Air and Space Museum, Saturn V Fund, P.O. Box 23197, Washington, DC 20026. Checks should be made payable to: "National Air and Space Museum Saturn V".

Assuming full funding, the restoration of the Saturn V will be completed this year. Access to the Saturn V will remain free to visitors and the rocket will remain a stop along the tram tours run by neighboring attraction Space Center Houston.

For more details on the restoration effort and ways to help, visit collectSPACE.com"

::EDIT::

[http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-030104a.html]Another link to "Save the Saturn" (with pics, etc.)

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-03-03 09:43:08

Gee, Cindy, why would you want to preserve an old rocket like that, when the same amount of effort, etc. could produce a new one capable of doing what it did so much betterin every way? The British R100 and the Graf Zeppelin, both successful airships but not capable of any significant improvement using the technology of the day were dismantled as too large and expensive to preserve. (Remember cattle guts used to make the gas cells, lift gas venting and water ballast dumping to remain in trim at altitude daytime as well as nighttime, manually operated control surfaces via control cables, no vectoring propellers for vertical up/down and reverse thrust?). We can do so much better now in both cases. It's the DC-3 taking over from the Ford Trimotor all over again: DC-3's are still flying safely with ordinary maintenance, while the very few Trimotors remaining have had to be restored at great expense, and carefully preserved as very carefully flown-for-show museum pieces. Life's too short to waste on half-baked technology, when the prospects today are so close to breakthrough solutions with a future.

Palomar · 2004-03-03 10:08:08

Gee, Cindy, why would you want to preserve an old rocket like that,.... Life's too short to waste on half-baked technology, when the prospects today are so close to breakthrough solutions with a future.

*WHAT???

Dicktice, we can't let the last Saturn V run to rot!

Half-baked technology??? It took us to the Moon several times! It performed flawlessly!

It's a Saturn V thing -- you wouldn't understand!

My god, I am freaking out!!

The most majestic, glorious, grand, awesome rocket ever built...and you don't care if it is preserved??!?! All the history, the awe, the "spirit of the Space Age"...!

My god...

Why don't you just shoot me next, Dicktice? I mean, really!

Shaun...help!

Shaun Barrett · 2004-03-03 17:54:15

Cindy, forgive him for he knows not whereof he speaks!

Come on Dicktice, let's not be too utilitarian in our outlook. Surely we can be permitted a little awe and nostalgia with regard to what was the pinnacle of technology in its day.
In your world, we'd be breaking up the original Wright Flyer and using the wood for toothpicks!

What would you do if you found the dilapidated hulks of the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria - chop 'em up and stick 'em in the potbelly stove next winter?! After all, they are old technology, aren't they?
:;):

dicktice · 2004-03-04 08:59:06

Aw, gee, kids . . . it's just that it could have been so much more--same as the airships. Those old hulks (airships or rockets or Titanics) are so sad. If you'd visit Musee de l'air, near Paris, where the original pre-WWI airplanes are entombed, with their tires filled with concrete . . . you'd know where I'm coming from. Flying collections, are something else. I hate those ossified historical technical artifacts! They give me the creeps, mostly because they preserve dead-ends. The Wright Brothers' effort was another (virtually unflyable, as you now know, even by professionals) one of those dead-ends. On the other hand, the (admittedly historic) Soyuz system hardware is still viable and doing yeoman service! Not only that, but the next generation Chinese system is an offshoot of the Soyuz. None of the Saturn V hardware is upgradeable, having been essential junked by Nixon & Company, way back when. Waste of time. Now--about those three Columbus ships: Didn't they all sink?

Palomar · 2004-03-04 09:37:00

Aw, gee, kids . . . it's just that it could have been so much more--same as the airships. Those old hulks (airships or rockets or Titanics) are so sad. .None of the Saturn V hardware is upgradeable, having been essential junked by Nixon & Company, way back when. Waste of time.

*Dicktice, I feel you are missing the point: The Saturn V was beautiful.

I have a poster of Apollo 11 liftoff, and another (large postcard size) photo of Apollo 11 or 13 Saturn V (it's affixed to my wall; can't lift the edge to see which) being rolled out of the assembly building.

Ah well, we probably won't see eye-to-eye on this. :*(

I think they should totally refurbish the Saturn V in Houston AND stand it upright (safety issues...I know...hurricanes and all that -- standing upright won't happen).

If they don't fix it up, I'll just rope it to my car and drive it to my place. And let the neighbors scream and the codes authority people come knocking at the door!

Hmmmmm...all the pretty holiday lights I could string it up with come December! Talk about your "conversation piece"!

--Cindy :laugh: :;):

Palomar · 2004-03-13 07:44:11

*And now back to our regularly scheduled Saturn V Worship:

:laugh:

I was REALLY hoping to be able to find this on the net, because I saw the quote a few evenings ago in a National Geographic space exploration special. It's Michael Collins' description of blasting off in a Saturn V (I envy him!!!):

"COLLINS: This beast is best felt. Shake, rattle, and roll! We are thrown left and right against our straps in spasmodic little jerks. It is steering like crazy, like a nervous lady driving a wide car down a narrow alley, and I just hope it knows where it's going, because for the first ten seconds we are perilously close to that umbilical tower."

[Hmmmm...does he have something against female drivers? ha ha]

Anyway, here's the article in whole:

[http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Histo … -11-1.html]Click

I'm next!

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-03-13 09:45:38

Yes, Collins is the greatest, bar none. Re. rocket beauty, I think I said (or meant to do so) the Soyuz rocket being raised and then launched, with all those volumptuous boosters attached, is even more evocative of what I dreamt space travel would be like as a kid, reading Fash Gordon. Saturn looks like a layer cake. And besides, Soyuz launches can be witnessed regularly, still. Come on!

Palomar · 2004-03-25 11:15:09

Re. rocket beauty, I think I said (or meant to do so) the Soyuz rocket being raised and then launched, with all those volumptuous boosters attached, is even more evocative of what I dreamt space travel would be like as a kid, reading Fash Gordon. Saturn looks like a layer cake. And besides, Soyuz launches can be witnessed regularly, still. Come on!

*Ha. Saturn V beats Soyuz -ANY- day. Or any other rocket, for that matter. And no, this isn't an issue of national pride.

Saturn V looks like a -layer cake-? I always thought, in the air, it looked like a flying syringe.

You can't dissuade me, dicktice (but feel free to keep trying) :laugh: Might as well tell me carob tastes as good as Godiva chocolate, ha ha.

---

"Above the CM was the emergency escape system..."

[http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/imag … aturnV.htm]Click

A really good resource for each stage, how long it burned, altitude, speed, etc.

What I want to know about is that "emergency escape system." How did it work? If one of the Apollo missions had had to abort the mission, at what point did they no longer have that option (I presume before Stage 3)? And what exactly would have happened after an abort? What was the emergency escape system plan?

--Cindy

::EDIT:: I Googled for answers to my questions, but all the hits I get only refer back to the emergency escape system by name (no explanations).

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