china - manned spaceflight

dicktice · 2003-10-15 08:44:01

I was very impressed by the clean, smoke-free, steady-as-a-rock launch by the Chinese. I wish it could have continued until the rocket vanished into the distance, before the horrendous, bloody suicide bombings took precidence. But those 10-seconds I witnessed on the news, though . . . was like seeing the Space Age coming to life and taking-off again!

Palomar · 2003-10-15 09:02:07

Yahoo! News item regarding this...

*Well, hopefully all will go well. Good luck!

I recall posting this story some time ago, in a different thread:

"The Chinese assert that they were actually first to try to send a man into space. A 16th-century Ming Dynasty artisan, Wan Hu, held kites in each hand and strapped himself to a chair equipped with rockets, according to some historical accounts carried in the state news media.

His servants reportedly lit the gunpowder-fueled rocket as Mr. Wan tried to launch himself into the sky. He failed, dying in the explosion."

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-10-15 09:13:17

bah...for me all that is too much excitation. I doubt the NASA rovers on the moon will ever be activated in combat mode by the odor of the fried feet chicken. OK, I agree, the chinese have a plan to go to the moon, but what is their purpose exactly, is that a "flag and prestige" mission ? a "military mission" ? probably both. IMO "flag and prestige" + "military" don't make a sustainable, durable, efficient, space policy exploration. They did in 1970, not any more. They are just punctual spectacular show without any consequences for the future of space exploration. The media will make a big show of it for 3 days and that's it.
I sincerrely hope that the occidental world has enough maturity to overcome these ephemeral motivations. What we need if we really want to go far, on MArs for example, is a steady interest in the sciences, the space things and a spirit of conquest and curiosity, not motivated by military concept such as "space dominance", "national prestige" etc.
What is the real interest of the chinese crowd for the space exploration ? does the chinese worker or farmer feel part of this grand advanture or does he feel it's a "governement thing" and has no much interest for it ? I'd like to know.

*I agree with your entire post, dickbill.

Though I'm happy to see this launch (because I really like this sort of thing!), and wish the mission success, it does seem to be all about posturing, flexing muscles, etc. Frankly, I get tired of the "King of The Hill" shoving matches, but whatever. Maybe it's just because I'm a woman.

Not that the U.S.A. doesn't have its fair share of vanity and posturing. It seems progress is sometimes dragged along in the wake of "showing off"...but if that's all it is, then, well...that's all it is.

I know the Chinese are excited about this (sans the poor villagers who had SARS victims thrust upon their neighborhoods and who probably died as well in the SARS scourge), but yes -- after this, what? We in the U.S. have been asking that question for about 30 years now.

Do they plan to go further? A moonshot is exciting...but "been there, done that."

Oh well, who knows?

As for the Chinese workers and farmers: Chances are, especially in the interior of that vast nation, most know nothing about this; probably just the city slickers. Many people are still on the fringes of starvation over there. And I wonder what they're going to do about having babies when females have been finally bred out of the population. Guess that's another one for the scientists: Male gestation and birth-giving. Although last I heard, supposedly the government is wising up and allowing more than 1 child per couple to be born, to replenish the female population. I'd say that's a rather smart move, all things considered (duh!).

Hey, I'm honest about -my- nation's faults...I'll dish it out to other nations as well.

--Cindy

alokmohan · 2003-10-16 02:49:38

Chinese taikonaut successfully comes back.World hails.

alokmohan · 2003-10-18 04:28:43

Expected huge response.

dicktice · 2003-10-18 08:49:58

Cindy: Been there, came back, but done what?

Palomar · 2003-10-18 09:17:09

Cindy: Been there, came back, but done what?

*Proved they could do it, I guess.

I wonder what their next move will be. Guess we'll find out.

BTW, all this talk of going to the moon and etc. brought on a dream last night that I went to the moon. A colony was there, I dreamed about weightlessness during the voyage in the capsule (including being surrounded by panels of instruments)...a rather fun dream, too bad it didn't last longer.

The folks at Astropix have posted a photo of Apollo 17 on the launch pad, December 1972. Hopefully this is an indicator that old sentiments are stirring up again...

--Cindy

alokmohan · 2003-10-19 04:09:58

China may go to moon soon.

alokmohan · 2003-10-27 04:59:09

I am disappointed of lack of response.Everywhere there is high response.Spac.com is running pages.Please see.

Palomar · 2003-11-05 12:40:53

China in Space: Military Implications

"The article says that information warfare has two components, information and intelligence. Target information and intelligence are provided by information networks supported by satellites, airborne warning and control systems (AWACS), spy planes, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), sensors etc. Consequently, battlefield monitoring, information communication, navigation, positioning and precision guidance all rely on satellites. Thus construction of aerial eyes, aerial networks and information umbrellas is extremely important for successful high-tech warfare. Information superiority is a key battle-winning factor that comes from space supremacy. Conversely, destroying or capturing satellites and other sensors, closing the information umbrella, will deprive opponents of initiatives on the battlefield, making it difficult for them to exploit their precision-weapon capability. It is this broad philosophy that has been the driving force behind the development of space technology and systems."

Sad but true, I guess. All of the article is interesting.

Hey, where's that photo of a flower child pushing a daisy into the barrel of a soldier's rifle ala Vietnam War?

"Conquering space represents an opportunity in what China refers to as mankind's "Fourth Frontier" to recapture its lost legacy of technological mastery and innovation. The annual report on the military power of the People's Republic of China, published by the US Department of Defense, states that while the strongest immediate motivation for the manned space program appears to be political prestige, China's manned space effort almost certainly will contribute to improved space systems in the 2010-15 time frame."

Cat's out of the bag, I guess.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2003-11-14 14:07:04

This essay presents essentially the same argument I made to a few people a few weeks ago.

Space could be China's chance to redeem a mistake made 500 years ago, when the ocean going fleets were burned.

Palomar · 2003-11-14 14:23:29

This essay presents essentially the same argument I made to a few people a few weeks ago.
Space could be China's chance to redeem a mistake made 500 years ago, when the ocean going fleets were burned.

*I actually rather doubt it. China still has a tremendous amount of poverty to deal with, and many people nearly on the fringes of starvation. They also have a disproportionately male population, and though they seem to be relaxing their procreation laws, they still have yet to deal with the impact of the policy which has meant few females being born there. (We females are such a nuisance, what with our must-have uteri...sheesh!).

Given all their social woes (current and yet to be), I think many aspects of their culture and civilization is due to implode pretty soon. And I don't foresee them being a long-term, serious contender as far as space goes.

Of course...I could be wrong.

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-11-14 16:39:32

Given all their social woes (current and yet to be), I think many aspects of their culture and civilization is due to implode pretty soon. And I don't foresee them being a long-term, serious contender as far as space goes.
Of course...I could be wrong.

I think the chances of you being wrong on this one might be a bit higher than you'd like to think...

Yes, China does have severe, pervasive poverty, with hunger an ever-present threat due to their incredibly high population. However, China is one of the most rapidly industralizing countries in the world, with an average economic growth rate of 6% to 8% per year. China is also urbanzing at a red-hot pace as the countryside empties...I've heard people describe many urban skylines as a "forest of cranes" with all the rampant construction going on to cope with the growth.

The thing that is making China into an economic powerhouse is their manufactering exports. It's getting rather difficult to find something that's NOT made in China..lol. Exports, of course, equals money, money that the Chinese government is using to play with the heavyweights of the world, such as building that massive Three Gorges Dam that will provide electrical power to tens of millions of people. So it's only logical to think that China is going into space as a *peaceful* way of gaining status and power in the modern world. Personally, I'm tickled to death that they are building rockets instead of bombers...a militant China is the last thing we need right now. Whether China will be able to develop a space program equal in caliber to the United States or the old USSR remains to be seen...but my guess is that they have at least a 50/50 shot at making it into the big leagues...possibly even going all the way to the Moon by the year 2020. (We better damn well be there first!..lol.)

As for the skewing of the male population...it will be quite interesting to see how all those single males cope :;):

As for it being a civilization-killer, I think that's highly unlikely. Human societies are amazingly adaptable with these kinds of things. The biggest concern would be women's rights...with all those men running the show, women could easily be relegated to second place in 21st century Chinese society. So it would behoove the Chinese government to place a high value on women, making sure they have equal employment opportunities, etc. Another effect of the gender imbalace could be men marrying at a much later stage in life than women, which might actually help things, with all those mature fathers around...lol. I've also heard (a long time ago) that there will be an explosion in male homosexuality over there, but I think this is highly unlikely, as I think that sort of thing is genetically inprinted on a person rather than caused by external factors.

But in spite of its problems, China is a nation on the move, and it would serve us well to be prepared for a pair of new super powers on the rise in Asia (the other being India, nipping at China's heels.)

B

Euler · 2003-11-14 20:33:21

I defiantly do not see China imploding in the near future. China already has the world's second largest economy (after the US, as measured by purchasing power parity), and the economy is growing at an incredible 8% per year. Unless something unexpected happens, China will have the world's largest economy in less than 20 years.

As for the scarcity of females, the male/female ratio is only 1.06/1, which I don?t think will cause severe problems.

Palomar · 2003-11-15 08:33:57

*Byron, Euler, you guys might be right. You make good points, and seem to be more knowledgeable than I about certain aspects of China.

However, look at where the Soviet Union used to be versus where it is today...

I remember all the fears, expectations, hype, anticipation, etc., surrounding the Soviet Union, in the 1970s and 1980s (growing up).

Where is it now? Maybe China won't go the same route -- maybe their centuries-long rather insulated/isolated culture has made communism more workable there versus the ethnic makeup and geographical location (abutts onto the West) of Russia, but still...

Well, time will tell.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2003-11-15 11:47:30

There's a huge difference 'tween China and former USSR. USSR collapsed, and almost overnight changed to capitalism, for wich they were not ready at all... China is slowly adapting, in fct they have a lot of economical ties with Europe etc, that they didn't have only 10 years ago...

Also consider the 'made in china' stuff, it less pronounced now, but you'd be surprized how much stuff you use that's been manufactured there, and i'm not talking about low tech stuff, a LOT of high end computer-cases, for instance are made in China, their plants are relatively up-to-date. You never saw a lot of "made in Russia" stuff, did you?

... Back to their hardware...

I repeat myself when i say i don't understand why everybody dismisses their achievment as being 40yrs+ behind the other spacefaring countries...

Some points:
-"it's basically a copy of Soyuz" ...WRONG! It's true they got a lot of info from the Russians, but it is NOT a copy, it's a really sophisticated capsule, and if it looks like a copy, that's because of the fact that Soyuz is a very sound design (look up the "pre-Apollo" (beta-versions?) designs, they look like a Soyuz, too, hmmm)

-Consider this: Shendzou is the most modern manned craft in use today! Yes, you read that right... Soyuz: 50's tech with some upgrades... Shuttle: 70's... Shendzou: 90's!

-It's a versatile design: launch two, let them dock, leave the servicemodules in orbit, hey presto, a small spacestation for the cost of two cheap launches. Add modules as much as you like...
-Abundant power: two sets of solar panels, so the abovementioned minilab will not need extra panels, launched separately. Again a very flexible design.

-docking system is compatible with Soyuz, thus ISS. lifeboat in emergency situation anyone?

My question: if they launch the next craft... leave service behind...(with experiments) three months later, they launch again, dock with the orbiting hardware, stay there some weeks, bring back their experiments...

Then, how far 'behind' would they be? (Also considering the low cost of such an operation, compared with a Shuttle launch)

Wim · 2003-11-15 12:08:04

I agree there with the 'far behind stuff'. I'd say they are almost ahead of us/europe/russia. China uses the most up-to-date capsule (plus there own adjustments) and some still say they are behind ?? because they started later ? c'mon now.
Who knows they will be the ones who give the kick in the butt of the others. I hope so to be honest.

Palomar · 2003-11-15 12:18:16

You never saw a lot of "made in Russia" stuff, did you?

*Yes, on vodka labels. :;):

Looks like I've got a bit of a "mea culpa" to say. Interesting feedback, and it'll be interesting to watch what China does over the years -- especially near future.

--Cindy

Wim · 2003-11-15 12:25:46

My guess is that they'll run for it so to say. Not a lot of the same flights or the same scientific experiments but rather have the -been there done that, what's next on the menu -sort af thing. 3 shenzou flights, next is a small space station, next will be the moon, next a moonbase. That sort of approach.
Anybody thinks the same ?

Rxke · 2003-11-15 12:28:18

No mea culpas, please!
I know from experience i sometimes sound a bit confrontational, but that's just because my english is not that good, so i write a bit 'compressed'

Those vodka labels give a wrong idea of the situation, people always count them double...:D

BTW 'made in Russia' stuff is, at least in europe, sought after by the people that are looking beyond the lenght of their noses (is that a correct saying, i doubt it...) Especially anything with lenses: camera's, binoculars, telescopes, the stuff...) also the former DDR stuff, it's all built like a tank, looks like really low tech, but it works so good it's amazing... Most of their 'consumer stuff' was merely military grade with a different paintjob... Prices have soared, but 10 years ago you could score 300mm camera lenses that were really good for 125-ish dollars, if you could find them that is...

Wim · 2003-11-15 13:06:40

Vodka and double vision, maybe something for nasa/esa ?

Palomar · 2003-11-15 13:27:53

No mea culpas, please!
I know from experience i sometimes sound a bit confrontational, but that's just because my english is not that good, so i write a bit 'compressed'

*Rxke, I didn't think you sounded confrontational, and I was simply having some fun. :laugh:

---

Hmmmm. Wim, it looks like you change your avatar more often than I do! Cool. Maybe I need to get some of those avatars that move.

Sorry...getting off topic.

--Cindy

Wim · 2003-11-16 06:01:21

Let the chinese have a go on Vodka, who knows how many moonbases they will construct then ...

I'm still playing around with the avatar thingy. I kinda like it.

Euler · 2003-12-09 01:24:57

China is now saying that they will have an unmanned lunar orbiter within 3 years and an unmanned lunar sample return by 2010.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-03-03 22:55:24

China is now saying that they will have an unmanned lunar orbiter within 3 years and an unmanned lunar sample return by 2010.

yes, it might happen even sooner.

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#26 2003-10-15 08:44:01

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#27 2003-10-15 09:02:07

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#28 2003-10-15 09:13:17

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#29 2003-10-16 02:49:38

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#30 2003-10-18 04:28:43

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#31 2003-10-18 08:49:58

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#32 2003-10-18 09:17:09

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#33 2003-10-19 04:09:58

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#34 2003-10-27 04:59:09

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#35 2003-11-05 12:40:53

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#36 2003-11-14 14:07:04

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#37 2003-11-14 14:23:29

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#38 2003-11-14 16:39:32

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#39 2003-11-14 20:33:21

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#40 2003-11-15 08:33:57

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#41 2003-11-15 11:47:30

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#42 2003-11-15 12:08:04

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#43 2003-11-15 12:18:16

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#44 2003-11-15 12:25:46

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#45 2003-11-15 12:28:18

Re: china - manned spaceflight

#46 2003-11-15 13:06:40

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#47 2003-11-15 13:27:53

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#48 2003-11-16 06:01:21

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