Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

Mark S · 2002-06-26 14:32:06

As a thought exercise, I did some simple calculations and I believe I have come up with an alternative rocket to the Ares that can lift 176 tonnes to a 100 km orbit. In tribute to the "Barbarian" studies of the 1980's for a space-laser booster, I will refer to the rocket as "Atlas-Barbarian."

The Atlas-Barbarian consists of seven Atlas V Common Core Boosters, clustered together. A nuclear thermal rocket sits atop the stack. I used the following assuptions to arrive at my conclusions, and I would appreciate any efforts by the other members to verify them.

Stage 1: 7x Atlas V CCB, specs from Encyclopedia Astronautica

Stage 2: Nuclear thermal rocket, ISp=900 s, 33% of weight is structure and engines

Booster thrust-to-weight ratio is 1.1, no delta-V assist from earth, delta V = 7,848.7 m/s

The Rocket Equation:
Delta V= 9.81*ISp*ln (gross weight/dry weight)

Mark S · 2002-06-27 07:44:20

I went over my math last night and determined the following:

If Atlas-Barbarian launched from Kennedy Space Center, it could place 33 tonnes on a fast conjunction trajectory for Mars--which is all that is needed for Mars Direct.

If Delta IV Common Booster Cores were used instead of Atlas V CCB's, the mass sent to Mars would be reduced to 22 tonnes.

Of course, my calculations were simple and did not account for losses due to drag and other factors. But a launch from French Guiana would give the rocket some additional speed over a launch from Florida. I like the concept and I hope that somebody at Lockheed-Martin gives it some serious study.

Phobos · 2002-06-27 14:18:55

If someone does use your concept I hope they change the name of the rocket. "Barbarian" is such an ugly sounding name for a scientific/colonial rocket. It's somewhat ironic though. I'm sure a lot of Native Americans would like to rename the Mayflower the "Barbarian."

Mark S · 2002-06-28 07:38:11

I disagree. A rocket as big and powerful as the Saturn needs a name that sounds just as tough as the rocket.

Phobos · 2002-06-28 18:30:18

It just sounds a little too tough. Since it's a rocket designed just for delivering payloads to Mars, I think it should have a name that reflects that function. Maybe name it the Olympus (drop the mons) after one of the biggest volcanoes in the Solar System?

Palomar · 2002-06-29 10:54:21

If someone does use your concept I hope they change the name of the rocket. "Barbarian" is such an ugly sounding name for a scientific/colonial rocket.

*I agree. How about "Hercules" instead? Or "Orion"?

Actually, I'd like more to see it named "Voltaire"; after all, an entire *age* has been named for him...if that doesn't indicate strength, I don't know what does.

Voltaire needs to have SOMETHING named after him in the space program, on Mars, whatever.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-06-29 14:41:33

*I agree. How about "Hercules" instead? Or "Orion"?
Actually, I'd like more to see it named "Voltaire"; after all, an entire *age* has been named for him...if that doesn't indicate strength, I don't know what does.
Voltaire needs to have SOMETHING named after him in the space program, on Mars, whatever.

I believe there's already a rocket called the Hercules and the Orion is the project name for the early nuclear pulse propulsion rocket project. Of course you could still name it those things, but it might be interesting to go into the mythologies of other cultures and pick out names to. Since the Vikings were such renowned explorers, we could name it after a powerful god or artifact in their mythology, like after Thor's hammer or somethng. If we're going to name it after a person in history, I'd vote for the "Newton" being that Isaac Newton discovered the laws of physics that govern rocketry. Of course Newtons are a standard of measurement to, so that might not be a good idea.

Palomar · 2002-06-29 16:08:38

Of course Newtons are a standard of measurement to, so that might not be a good idea.

...and then there's Fig Newtons.

"The Ares-Voltaire"...now THAT's got a ring to it!

--Cindy

P.S.: When Voltaire went into voluntary exile to England [his other option was to spend time in the Bastille, a jail, for running into trouble with the French censors] in the 1720s, he witnessed Newton's funeral [1727]. Voltaire's lover, Mme du Chatelet, was a genius; she translated Newton's Mathematica Principia from English into French. Voltaire corresponded with Newton's niece for a time, who told him the story of the apple falling on Newton's head; Voltaire was thus the first person to set down in history the story of the apple conking Newton on the head.

Phobos · 2002-06-30 05:06:14

"The Ares-Voltaire"...now THAT's got a ring to it!

Hmm, the word "Voltaire" reminds me of voltage. Maybe we should just call it the Ares High Voltage Rocket . I'd like to name it after some unsung heroes of spaceflight who never really got their due. Sergei Korolev was responsible for getting a lot of the Soviet firsts in space accomplished like Sputnik and the robotic lunar missions despite the fact that he was thrown in a Siberian gulag during the reign of Stalin and developed lasting health problems from the starvation and slave labor he was subjected to there. Yeah, I vote for the Korolev-Ares rocket (I like that "ares" part.) I'm filling in the bubble.

Palomar · 2002-06-30 18:27:23

I'd like to name it after some unsung heroes of spaceflight who never really got their due. Sergei Korolev was responsible for getting a lot of the Soviet firsts in space accomplished like Sputnik and the robotic lunar missions despite the fact that he was thrown in a Siberian gulag during the reign of Stalin and developed lasting health problems from the starvation and slave labor he was subjected to there. Yeah, I vote for the Korolev-Ares rocket (I like that "ares" part.) I'm filling in the bubble. <!--emo&:)

*My candidate in the Soviet category of unsung space heroes [or, in this case, HEROINE] goes to Valentina Tereshkova; first woman in space, Vostok 6, circa 1963. Let's name a rocket after her! "You go, girl!"

I purchased Carl Sagan's _Pale Blue Dot_ a couple of years ago. Prior to this, I thought Sally Ride was the first woman in space, in the early 1980s. When I read Sagan's list of Soviet and American early space achievements side-by-side at the opening of _PBD_, and spotted "1963 First woman in space (Vostok 6)" my jaw actually did drop, and I drew the book closer and stared hard at the date [am I reading this right?! The Soviets put a woman into space TWO DECADES before the USA did?!?] to make sure I was reading that year right!

There's some good articles about her on the web. Just search under Vostok 6 or her name [mentioned above].

--Cindy

Mark S · 2002-07-01 07:43:27

I'd be willing to settle on something like "Odin" or "Thor," something related to the Vikings (in honor of the unmanned probe that may have discovered life on Mars.) But the name of the rocket is not as important as its function: getting large payloads to orbit or smaller ones to this new world we plan on settling and exploring.

Phobos · 2002-07-01 17:05:21

*My candidate in the Soviet category of unsung space heroes [or, in this case, HEROINE] goes to Valentina Tereshkova; first woman in space, Vostok 6, circa 1963. Let's name a rocket after her! "You go, girl!"

I can't disagree with that. A lot of people think Sally Ride was the first woman in space, poor Valentina Tereshkova seems to have fallen by the wayside. So I'll vote for the Tereshkova. The unsung hero shall sing to the stars!

I'd be willing to settle on something like "Odin" or "Thor," something related to the Vikings (in honor of the unmanned probe that may have discovered life on Mars.) But the name of the rocket is not as important as its function: getting large payloads to orbit or smaller ones to this new world we plan on settling and exploring.

I think you've been outvoted on the choice of names for your rocket. Anyways, I went back and read your first message and saw that you wanted to put a nuclear thermal rocket at the top of the stack. Would something like that cause political problems? It seems the better something is the more political problems it creates. I think if we want to colonize Mars nuclear propulsion will be an absolute must to cut down the travel times. Not only will short travel times be better for the passengers psychologically, but it you wouldn't have to take along so much mass with you. Two months worth of food and water weighs a lot less than seven months worth. Of course, I'm thinking of nuclear pulse propulsion, I'm not very familiar with nuclear thermal rockets.

Mark S · 2002-07-02 08:09:41

Nuclear thermal propulsion is the only type of nuclear rocket that NASA has built, and it's the only one that will be ready by the time that the rumored "Bush Mars Initiative" is ready to fly.

From an engineering standpoint, nuclear propulsion is desirable. But there are a host of political dragons that must be slayed before we can begin sticking nuclear thermal engines on rockets. It was only five years ago that a horde of extreme environmentalists protested the launch of Cassini and its 70 pounds of Plutonium. More education is needed on the issue before the people will support it.

However, if Richard C. Hoaglund is correct, the Bush administration wishes to start a humans-to-Mars effort "as soon as the American people are ready for it." In Hoaglund's mind, it means exposing the anomalies of Mars and rallying support for a human investigation. If the Martian anomalies are as exciting as Hoaglund thinks, I don't think that Americans will think twice about using nuclear power to get to Mars.

nirgal · 2002-07-02 16:22:23

the rumored "Bush Mars Initiative"

Huh? I haven't heard about that yet. Can you please give some details?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-07-03 07:21:55

Yeh, that goes for me too! Is this "initiative" all in Richard Hoagland's mind or does it originate elsewhere?
:0

Mark S · 2002-07-03 07:41:20

President Bush has not formally announced a Mars Initiative, but Richard Hoaglund has heard rumors (take them with a grain of salt) that one will be announced in 2003 or 2004, after the MER rovers have landed.

Even though this administration has not been an enthusiastic supporter of NASA, I can see a Mars Initiative coming from the administration. Even if Bush is, in the words of his detractors, trying to avenge the failings of his father, he will revisit the Space Exploration Initiative and try to pass an amended version (hopefully without the moonbase or space station requirements.)

Dayton3 · 2002-07-03 17:41:37

*My candidate in the Soviet category of unsung space heroes [or, in this case, HEROINE] goes to Valentina Tereshkova; first woman in space, Vostok 6, circa 1963. Let's name a rocket after her! "You go, girl!"
I can't disagree with that. A lot of people think Sally Ride was the first woman in space, poor Valentina Tereshkova seems to have fallen by the wayside. So I'll vote for the Tereshkova. The unsung hero shall sing to the stars!
I'd be willing to settle on something like "Odin" or "Thor," something related to the Vikings (in honor of the unmanned probe that may have discovered life on Mars.) But the name of the rocket is not as important as its function: getting large payloads to orbit or smaller ones to this new world we plan on settling and exploring.
I think you've been outvoted on the choice of names for your rocket. Anyways, I went back and read your first message and saw that you wanted to put a nuclear thermal rocket at the top of the stack. Would something like that cause political problems? It seems the better something is the more political problems it creates. I think if we want to colonize Mars nuclear propulsion will be an absolute must to cut down the travel times. Not only will short travel times be better for the passengers psychologically, but it you wouldn't have to take along so much mass with you. Two months worth of food and water weighs a lot less than seven months worth. Of course, I'm thinking of nuclear pulse propulsion, I'm not very familiar with nuclear thermal rockets.

Valentina is seldom mentioned because she wasn't really a true cosmonaut per se. She was an amateur parachutist who was chosen because she was....well, a women parchutist.

The early Soviet vehicles could not land safely with a cosmonaut so the Cosmonauts had to bail out.

And reports were that she spent the whole time in orbit practically hysterical.

nirgal · 2002-07-04 10:54:58

Well, I certainly hope Bush does anounce such an initiative but I won't hold my breath. What are Hoagland's sources?

Palomar · 2002-07-04 15:29:04

Dayton3 writes: "Valentina is seldom mentioned because she wasn't really a true cosmonaut per se. She was an amateur parachutist who was chosen because she was....well, a women parchutist."

*Really? And were the male cosmonauts chosen because they were amateur parachutists as well?

Dayton 3 writes: "And reports were that she spent the whole time in orbit practically hysterical."

*What reports? Refer me to them, please; I'd like to read them...especially where it's documented that she was "practically hysterical" the entire time. Every report of her I've read was written by men, and none of them made such a reference.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-07-04 18:06:51

If Valentina went into space that pretty much concludes for me at least that she's a cosmonaut and the first woman in space. Actually, you'd have to be pretty damn brave to offer to go into space in a 1963 era space vehicle so primitive it required you to bail out!

mfrieden · 2002-07-05 14:07:20

Does the gender of the author really matter? Here's a good resource: http://www.astronautix.com/astros/terhkova.htm. Some quotes of interest:

"it was Korolev's idea just after Gagarin's flight to put a woman into space as yet another novelty"

and

"Korolev was unhappy with Tereshkova's performance in orbit and she was not permitted to take manual control of the spacecraft as had been planned. Mishin later claimed she was ?on the edge of psychological instability?"

From that point onward, woman cosmonauts in the program were supposed to be considered on an equal basis with the men cosmonauts in the program, but it wasn't until 1982, one year before Sally Ride, that any of them actually saw flight duty.

Palomar · 2002-07-05 14:19:11

Does the gender of the author really matter?
*Well, if the gender of the cosmonaut "matters" -- sure, why not?
Here's a good resource: http://www.astronautix.com/astros/terhkova.htm. Some quotes of interest:
"it was Korolev's idea just after Gagarin's flight to put a woman into space as yet another novelty"
and
"Korolev was unhappy with Tereshkova's performance in orbit and she was not permitted to take manual control of the spacecraft as had been planned. Mishin later claimed she was ?on the edge of psychological instability?"
From that point onward, woman cosmonauts in the program were supposed to be considered on an equal basis with the men cosmonauts in the program, but it wasn't until 1982, one year before Sally Ride, that any of them actually saw flight duty.

*Here's more of the quote which you refer to, directly from the web site:

"Although it was Korolev's idea just after Gagarin's flight to put a woman into space as yet another novelty, Khrushchev himself made the final crew selection. On June 14, 1963, Vostok 5 was launched with cosmonaut Valeri Bykovsky aboard. Two days later, Valentina Tereshkova became the first woman in space aboard Vostok 6. Korolev was unhappy with Tereshkova's performance in orbit and she was not permitted to take manual control of the spacecraft as had been planned. Mishin later claimed she was ?on the edge of psychological instability?. Whatever the case, Valentina completed three days in space, more than the flight time of all the American astronauts put together. Vostok 5 had been planned for a record eight days in space, but Bykovsky had trouble with his thermal regulation system [tut, tut -- was he "practically hysterical" at this point, too?] and ended up landing after five days, only three hours after Vostok 6. "

*Why should we take Mishin's claim at face-value? What did he mean by "on the verge of psychological instability," and what was the basis/where is the evidence for this claim? Was Mishin a professional psychologist or psychiatrist? If not, then by what criteria did he make this judgment of her? It also states Mishin "LATER claimed" -- what's up with this "later" business? The author of the article seems, IMO, to treat Mishin's allegation in a brush-off manner. Anyone can claim anything; show me proof that what he said about Cosmonaut Tereshkova was true.

--Cindy

robcwillis · 2002-07-06 15:57:36

Hello Mark S,

I have some questions about how you came up with your projected payload to orbit capabilities for "Atlas Barbarian".

Please see www.astronautix.com/lvs/atlasv.htm

Let's do some very crude calculations. Atlas V 501 consisting of 1 Atlas V CCB plus 1 Centaur V1 upper stage can deliver up to 10,300kg to a 28 degree LEO from Canaveral. 7 x 10,300 = 72,100kg. Very impressive. However, without Centaur or some other upper stage, your Atlas cluster would have to push it's entire dry mass all the way to orbit. I'll make a very rough guess that the payload of such a single stage to orbit cluster would be something between ZERO and 10,000kg!

Your "Barbarian" description mentions no upper stage other than an undefined "nuclear rocket", for which you list no estimated mass or dimensions, nor specify a particular motor. Mars Direct calls for 45 tonne payloads to be thrown from Earth orbit. If your nuclear rocket is required to serve both as an upper stage to orbit as well as perform a TMI burn capable of throwing your specified 33 tonnes at Mars, it would have to be so large that even the combined maximum thrust of seven RD-180s might not be enough to even lift the vehicle off the pad! Worse yet, your nuclear stage would have to be fired before the vehicle left the atmosphere. Once in orbit, I have no objection to the use of nuclear rockets, but the environmental damage and risks involved in fireing such motors prior to reaching orbit are unacceptable, especially as there is no chance of a controlled re-entry in the event of premature engine shutdown.

Also, you mention "If Delta IV Common Booster Cores were used instead of Atlas V CCB's, the mass sent to Mars would be reduced to 22 tonnes." I'm afraid this does not make much sense. Despite the lower thrust of RS-68, the higher specific impulse of the hydrogen burning motor and the much larger size of Delta IV CCB gives the Delta a higher throw weight capability than the smaller and cheaper Atlas CCB. The new model Atlas series was developed specifically to meet light to medium lift requirements. Conversely, the Delta IV series is to fulfill the medium to heavy lift role.

In any case, existing Delta or Atlas CCBs could not be used in a cluster of seven arrangement. The external structures would have to be completely re-stressed for much higher loads. Clearly, Atlas Barbarian would be markedly inferior to an Energia derived Ultra Heavy Lift rocket like Vulkan ILV (International Launch Vehicle). Even Ares, Magnum or Sea Dragon are clearly superior to Barbarian. Please forgive me if my criticism seems harsh, and correct me if I have missed something.

Also, I would ask that any new launch vehicle discussions be posted in the Launch Vehicle stream under the Interplanetary transportation section.

Thanks.

robcwillis · 2002-07-07 13:12:48

Hello Again Mark,

Actually, your 22 tonne from LEO to TMI throw weight for the cluster of seven Delta IV CCBs with a core mounted nuclear-thermal upper stage sounds perfectly reasonable. What I meant to say was that the lift to LEO capability of a Delta IV CCB based cluster would be markedly higher than an Atlas V CCB based cluster.

I am sorry that I did not make that clear.

Mark S · 2002-07-08 08:02:55

When I did the calculations for the rocket, I started by multiplying the thrust of the RD-180 (or RS-68, in the Delta IV) by seven and then divided by a thrust-weight ratio of 1.1 to determine the weight of the fully-assembled vehicle with payload. The mass of the upper stage and payload is the gross weight with the weight of the lower stages subtracted.

You have brought up an important point about this rocket in that the nuclear thermal rocket is ignited sub-orbital. At the altitude of ignition, the environmental effects from the engine would be minimal. Keep in mind that the design for this booster was simply a thought exercise aimed at possible improvement to Mars Direct, and it should not be taken as a serious proposal. For example, a new core may have to be built, and six CBCs can be clustered around it.

As for the entire debate about Valentina Tereshkova, I would also recommend reading "Mission to Mars" by Michael Collins for corroboration about the story. Collins believes that Tereshkova went hysterical, based on both anecdotal evidence and the fact that only two female cosmonauts have flown since then. In Collins's mind, Russia's first experience with women in space soured them towards the idea of letting women fly again.

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#1 2002-06-26 14:32:06

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#2 2002-06-27 07:44:20

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#3 2002-06-27 14:18:55

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#4 2002-06-28 07:38:11

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#5 2002-06-28 18:30:18

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#6 2002-06-29 10:54:21

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#7 2002-06-29 14:41:33

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#8 2002-06-29 16:08:38

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#9 2002-06-30 05:06:14

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#10 2002-06-30 18:27:23

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#11 2002-07-01 07:43:27

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#12 2002-07-01 17:05:21

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#13 2002-07-02 08:09:41

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#14 2002-07-02 16:22:23

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#15 2002-07-03 07:21:55

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#16 2002-07-03 07:41:20

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#17 2002-07-03 17:41:37

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#18 2002-07-04 10:54:58

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#19 2002-07-04 15:29:04

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#20 2002-07-04 18:06:51

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#21 2002-07-05 14:07:20

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#22 2002-07-05 14:19:11

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#23 2002-07-06 15:57:36

Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

#24 2002-07-07 13:12:48

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Re: Alternative to the Ares Rocket - I call it "Atlas-Barbarian"

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