What if there's life? - Should we terraform?

alokmohan · 2003-10-16 03:01:29

We don't need Mars as a stepping stone to the stars?
Sure, and we don't need America as a stepping stone to space. Numbers aren't everything. When humans are established on Mars, we will have a whole new economic and technological driver, with more favorable launch conditions to the asteroid belt and planets beyond. Mars is the ultimate stepping stone to the stars, artificial habitats are the ultimate cop-out.
Yeah, I'm for Mars for exactly those very reasons. Who wants to live in a tube anyway?
I just thought that at least there'd be an alternative if Mars wasn't viable, and considering "when it's steam boat time, you steam", I don't see why you couldn't do both scenarios, at least to some extent?
Wouldn't a transport system of scale economics from Earth to the rest of the Solar System or indeed from Mars to the asteroid field and beyond, require shipyards, starbases, intergravity transit infrastructure, i.o.w habitats principally built from space material and thus moonbases etc?
The power and energy requirements for acceleration to fractions of light speed for interstellar travel, is greater than what the entire world currently consume in a whole year. Don't the magnitudes suggest things like tapping the inexhaustible power of the Sun, that is building what is basically solar power satellites, just like the high frontier crowd say?
The world needs the accumulated American research and scientific discoveries as a stepping stone to Mars, I don't see why it needs the United States per se (sorry!). If contrary to expectation, America would not lead this enterprise though, any power that did, would automatically be highly indebted to the legacy which NASA and superior US research has contributed to the world since 1945. A bit like there wouldn't have been a space program to start with without von Braun and his gang of hijacked German rocket scientists, but on a much greater scale.

America most likely to do it.

jadeheart · 2003-11-25 19:53:08

Terraformation depends on type of life we get,I agree.

so the question begs asking- how complex would life have to be in order to trump any effort at terraformation? i personally think that we will discover bacteria-level microbes at least, but i think we will also find that they're commonplace throughout the solar system if not the galaxy. in which case i'd say terraform and not worry about it. but if life has gone beyond that, even to just the beginnings of a multicellular stage, we would need to rethink. especially if it could be shown that this life had the potential to develop much further on a reasonable astronomical time scale (within, say, several million years, or even 1 billion). we'd be pre-empting the development of an entirely new branch of life. kind of a planet-wide abortion. (ok, bad analogy there.) but we'd have to consider what we might be snuffing out in order to further our own cause(s).

i guess in that case we'd have to cop-out to O'Neill colonies, right psibrain?

GraemeSkinner · 2004-02-25 04:20:09

so the question begs asking- how complex would life have to be in order to trump any effort at terraformation? i personally think that we will discover bacteria-level microbes at least, but i think we will also find that they're commonplace throughout the solar system if not the galaxy. in which case i'd say terraform and not worry about it. but if life has gone beyond that, even to just the beginnings of a multicellular stage, we would need to rethink.

I don't think we can consider terraforming Mars until we have ruled out life at whatever level. The chance to study the development of a planet and its life should not be missed as we'll never get another chance. In my view Mars should be left as it is. I'm not saying don't go at all, or don't touch it, but lets get up there and find that bacteria-level microbe, study it, and watch it develop. It would be a harsh lesson to presume for instance that terraforming would not affect a certain life form only to discover when its too late that we were wrong.

replicant7 · 2004-02-25 10:48:53

What if....in the event that a biological species (in whatever form or size) were discovered on Mars...and it turned out to be hostile, perhaps lethal to us humans....would we then be forced to try and eradicate it...before it got us first?

GraemeSkinner · 2004-02-25 15:36:03

What if....in the event that a biological species (in whatever form or size) were discovered on Mars...and it turned out to be hostile, perhaps lethal to us humans....would we then be forced to try and eradicate it...before it got us first?

If that life form was there first would we have the right to do that? Do we have the right to become judge and jury for another planets developing life?

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-25 18:24:24

Quote (replicant7 @ Feb. 25 2004, 11:48)
What if....in the event that a biological species (in whatever form or size) were discovered on Mars...and it turned out to be hostile, perhaps lethal to us humans....would we then be forced to try and eradicate it...before it got us first?
If that life form was there first would we have the right to do that? Do we have the right to become judge and jury for another planets developing life?

How 'bout this. If the life in question can comprehend the concept of judge and jury, then we'll negotiate.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-02-26 01:13:54

How 'bout this. If the life in question can comprehend the concept of judge and jury, then we'll negotiate.

Fine, let us wait until they can comprehend the concepts of negotiation, that'll give us loads of time to observe, record, and learn the processes involved in the planets development. When the life form in question can communicate enough to negotiate and understand the implication of those negotiations we won't be around to see it.
I'm not a fan of terraforming Mars to start with so I could be said to be biased on the matter, but we should think about Earth history before we make rash decissions about a process that could eradicate all natural life on a planet - Honestly I don't think we have evolved enough to decide the fate of basic life forms on other planets.

replicant7 · 2004-02-26 08:16:42

I would agree that we do not have the right to act as judge and jury, however, we have been guilty of just that on our own planet...on countless occasions...against our own native neighbours... for thousands of years.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-04 10:29:29

I would agree that we do not have the right to act as judge and jury, however, we have been guilty of just that on our own planet...on countless occasions...against our own native neighbours... for thousands of years.

That was basically my point, often in the past people thought they were doing what was right, only to be proved wrong at a later date. I think we should consider our actions before doing anything that could destroy *any* life on the planet. And that would rule out terraforming for a long long time.

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-04 19:32:15

Quote (replicant7 @ Feb. 26 2004, 09:16)
I would agree that we do not have the right to act as judge and jury, however, we have been guilty of just that on our own planet...on countless occasions...against our own native neighbours... for thousands of years.
That was basically my point, often in the past people thought they were doing what was right, only to be proved wrong at a later date. I think we should consider our actions before doing anything that could destroy *any* life on the planet. And that would rule out terraforming for a long long time.

Mars offers us the potential of a new world for colonization, a second home for humanity. even more, such an undertaking would drive us to improve our technology in many fields, making us a better spacefaring civilization capable of still greater journeys. a terraformed Mars offers us the promise of a more vibrant future for humanity and I cannot support throwing that away because some people think the planet belongs to the microbes that may or may not survive on their own.

Study them, don't destroy them indescriminately, but don't sacrifice the good of humanity for germs.

Bill White · 2004-03-04 19:53:28

How 'bout this. If the life in question can comprehend the concept of judge and jury, then we'll negotiate.
Fine, let us wait until they can comprehend the concepts of negotiation, that'll give us loads of time to observe, record, and learn the processes involved in the planets development. When the life form in question can communicate enough to negotiate and understand the implication of those negotiations we won't be around to see it.
I'm not a fan of terraforming Mars to start with so I could be said to be biased on the matter, but we should think about Earth history before we make rash decissions about a process that could eradicate all natural life on a planet - Honestly I don't think we have evolved enough to decide the fate of basic life forms on other planets.

If our science suggested that these Martian buggies are about to begin a forward looking evolutionary odyssey up the ladder of complexity, I might have more sympathy for this argument. However, if Martian bugs are the remnants of a long vanished warmer, wetter Mars, those days aren't coming back and ethically our duty is to save what diversity we can to learn as much as we can - - like Cobra said.

Who appointed us judge? Well, if not us, then who?

Yet the underlying question really is whether spreading human life throughout the solar system (and beyond) is a good thing, or not. And if the answer is "Yes" then children are our future, as I have been saying here for years.

DanielCook · 2004-03-05 15:30:08

The essence of life is change and extinction. Something like 99% of life on Earth is extinct. If there is some form of life native to Mars, we can study it - but then terraform (areoform?). Mars native life will adapt, and probably thrive.

Mundaka · 2004-03-05 15:48:31

Bill White · 2004-03-05 16:37:33

The essence of life is change and extinction. Something like 99% of life on Earth is extinct. If there is some form of life native to Mars, we can study it - but then terraform (areoform?). Mars native life will adapt, and probably thrive.

Nah! More gas than one of Cobra's burritos.

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-05 18:43:50

Nah! More gas than one of Cobra's burritos.

A novel terraforming approach

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-20 04:03:38

an old discussion on alien life worth a bump maybe

If life exists on Jupiter’s moon Europa, scientists might soon be able to detect it
https://theconversation.com/if-life-exi … -it-226656

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#26 2003-10-16 03:01:29

Re: What if there's life? - Should we terraform?

#27 2003-11-25 19:53:08

Re: What if there's life? - Should we terraform?

#28 2004-02-25 04:20:09

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#29 2004-02-25 10:48:53

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#30 2004-02-25 15:36:03

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#31 2004-02-25 18:24:24

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#32 2004-02-26 01:13:54

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#33 2004-02-26 08:16:42

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#34 2004-03-04 10:29:29

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#35 2004-03-04 19:32:15

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#36 2004-03-04 19:53:28

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#37 2004-03-05 15:30:08

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#39 2004-03-05 16:37:33

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