Broken spherele has dark spot inside it????

ERRORIST · 2004-02-22 10:40:38

Could this dark spot be a fossilized egg yolk? Could it be a layered sediment from water flowing? Check it out. It is still attached to the bed rock:

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2M1.JPG

GraemeSkinner · 2004-02-22 10:48:49

Could this dark spot be a fossilized egg yolk? Could it be a layered sediment from water flowing? Check it out. It is still attached to the bed rock:

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2M1.JPG

It could be any number of things really, fossilized plant stem, geode, shadows from an uneven break (when I first looked at it closely you could almost imagine a spherical break into the end causing a dark spot and gradual lighter areas). I'd like to think it was fossilized plant or something similar, though it will probably end up as geological in origin.

ERRORIST · 2004-02-22 10:59:32

I have seen geodes that look like that. But, never that small BB sized. If it is it still points to a water formation.

chaosman · 2004-02-22 12:56:10

Hi,
If you look at
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2M1.JPG
you will notice one spherule (under the double one) that shows two intersections. (It's not longer round due to this intersections).

If I look closely I see:

1. Some kind of a core
2. Some kind of fine veins between the core and the outer sections
3. Some kind of "cellular structure"
4. Inner core is brighter than outer rim

It looks very much similar to a plant intersection to me.

Is this just wishful thinking ? Are my eyes playing tricks to me ?
Anybody else with the same impressions ?

chaosman
stmafe

Algol · 2004-02-22 13:32:57

lol

atomoid · 2004-02-22 16:31:57

I think the dark spot is a vesicle, lots of the spherules show these spots, like little death-stars, if it were a tectite, then there i slikely to be trapped gas that escapes as the spherule cools, leaving a pock mark from the bubbles escaping as it cools. according to what another geologist said, concretions shoudl have no vessicles. Therefore the spherules argue to be tectites on this grounds, but i still think (hope at leat) that theyre concretions...

Marsrover · 2004-02-22 16:58:28

Tektites are still poorly understood. They are irregularly- and at times intricately-shaped nodules and blobs of a glassy substance. They have no crystal structure, and are therefore similar to obsidian, but are not associated with volcanic processes. Their chemistry is unique and somewhat unexplained.
The leading theory concerning their origin is the "Meteorite Impact Theory". It is postulated that many odd events occur during a meteor's impact because of the tremendous heat and pressure produced. Tektites may be fused glass that formed during an impact of a meteor with layers of rock on the Earth's surface. Tektites occur in broad bands in specific localities in different parts of the world. These bands produce characteristically similar tektites and are sometimes loosely associated with meteorite craters or suspected craters. Could these fields represent splash material from an impact? Many believe so and this idea is gaining acceptance from many scientists. The odd and diverse chemistry of the tektites could be a result of unique meteorites hitting unique rock types with the combinations producing particular effects.

Some tektites, called Moldavites, are especially prized for their clarity and unique green color. Moldavites are found in a "splash field" centered around Moldavia in former Czechoslovakia and are believed to have come from a meteorite crater in Germany. Moldavites are sometimes cut as gemstones or put into jewelry as natural uncut pieces to show off their often eerie and beautifully intricate shapes.

ERRORIST · 2004-02-22 17:27:05

These are spread through out all the different layers of the sulfur rich bed rock. There would have to be numerous impacts for this to happen during the formation of these layers. Not Likely IMHO.
The Layering could be from thermal spings long extinct. Organisms live at such locations on Earth. These could be fossilized organisms of some type that used to live at these locations. When Spirit arrives at the other crater I bet they find the same spereles in the bedrock there.

Marineris Sauce · 2004-02-24 20:27:36

Acually, I am wondering why there hasn't been more focus on these Spherules, or Sphericles, or Martianberries, or blackeyed peas, or whatever the hell these ballbearings are...
They are really freaking me out the more I see of them.
Take these for example:
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 53M2M1.JPG]Pea Soup 1
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 53M2M1.JPG]Pea Soup 2
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]Pea Soup 3
Don't they look as if they are actually "surfacing"? The thought occured to me that they may be slowly, over large portions of time, kindof "bubbling" to the surface of their various rock formations. Kindof excreating spheres.
Other pixs show what looks not unlike a soapy kind of texture, spongy, yet rocky at the same time... with "porousness" not unlike certain kinds of coral I've seen pictures of... It's a little unnerving that we haven't as yet seen any photo's from here on Earth that show anything comparable to these things. If these Spherules are common to geologists, then you'd think some comparison pixs would have surfaced by now? If these things are easily explainable then lets have some Earth analogue. Anyone?

atomoid · 2004-02-24 21:05:20

there are all sorts of spherules on earth. one great example is the [http://www.utahphotowild.com/small/pages/small4.htm]Moki marbles (which are hematite-rich, even!)

but regardless of the that, these BBs really freak me out too!

I cant figure out why they havent tried to RAT into any of the Blueberry muffins yet to see if there is layering inside the BBs (which shoudl reveal whether theyre concretions or tectites)... geez, the rover could have suffered a fatal error condition in the time theyve spent getting around to finally doing this crucial science... hopefully we wont have to wait much longer...

But it really make my day how we're actually getting pictures back from mars like these that really freak us the hell out! Viking, Pathfinder, Spirit...all those pretty pictures are boring compared to what were getting here at Meridiani. I almost wish Opportunity had landed on the surrounding pan-flat and boring plains and had to make a traverse to get to this bedrock to build up to this kind of excitement, i'm expecting it will be a boring trip until we reach the big crater, although these ball berings are probably littered all over the plains as well...

I like [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 53M2M1.JPG]pea soup number 2 because you can see near the lower left there is a "socket" left from where one of the BBs fell out (who knows how long ago...). My impression is that these BBs arent moving relative to the "bedrock" they are in, they are just falling out as the bedrock dissolves around them...

Dr. K · 2004-02-24 21:32:17

These berries are one of the weirdest things we've seen so far!

Here, check them out in 3-D!!
This one is a [http://www.marsunearthed.com/Opportunit … y15_3D.GIF]red/blue anaglyph.
And this one is set up for x or u [http://www.hazyhills.com/mars3d/opportu … 0212b.html]free-viewing 3-D.

--
For news, status, updates, scientific info, images, video, and more, check out:
[http://axonchisel.net/etc/space/mars-ex … ights.html](AXCH) 2004 Mars Exploration Rovers - News, Status, Technical Info, History.

ERRORIST · 2004-02-29 08:01:43

Well, now that they have put the RAT on it, it doesn't look like anything but a chocolate chip cookie. If they had used a finer grit it would have shown that dark spot in the center. That broken peice shows the spot because it cleaved with a smooth surface.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-03-01 02:14:28

I suppose there must be any number of ways these spherules can form by geological means, though I'm surprised they haven't thrown out any quick explanations for us yet.

In the meantime, it's interesting to speculate about possible biological origins for them.
I've noticed that many, or even most, of the more perfectly shaped 'berries' seem to have a subtle groove in them. I'm sure I've seen grooves like these somewhere before in terrestrial biological objects but I can't remember where. It almost looks like the groove that appears in a cell in the earliest stages of cell division.
In the 'Pea Soup 3' link provided for us by Marineris Sauce, there is the now famous double berry. It could almost be one of the spherules 'budding', in some kind of slow-motion reproduction.

There has been some discussion of visible structure inside the spherules, or the lack of it(! ). So far I've seen no convincing evidence of any obvious structural organisation within these curious little globules, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not biological.
What if individual microscopic organisms have discovered the only way to survive the extreme climate on Mars is to aggregate into an object with the minimum surface area, a sphere, in order to keep heat and moisture loss low? What if they reproduce by 'budding' and dividing before reorganising into two new spherules?

What if they look like sand or sandstone because they're actually our first encounter with silicon-based life?! If so, maybe only the outer rind is still alive, living on the surface of a sphere made of silicate corpses of previous generations?

Some outrageous speculation, I agree, but food for thought maybe.

ERRORIST · 2004-03-01 08:03:42

I agree. Who knows how life evolves on other planets we don't even know how it evolves on this planet.It does look like some of them are replicating into other spheres. This image has a broken sphere in it. The break is clean, and the surface is smooth, and you can make out a nucleus near the center.It is just below the sphere that looks like it is dividing into two seperate spheres.

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2M1.JPG

rgcarnes · 2004-03-01 22:20:22

For what it's worth, I've spent a lot of time at work looking at thermally produced spherical objects, some microscopic and some as large or larger than on the surface around Opportunity.

There is nothing I've seen among the "blueberries" which doesn't seem familiar in that context considering the tremendous energies released in the many cratering events.

Doesn't mean that that is how they are produced, but it does cover all of their obvious visible characteristics.

Rxke · 2004-03-02 05:06:56

rgcarnes,

i'm sceptical about biological factors, too; but can you explain why they're all well within the same order of magnitude qua size? Is that normal? I mean you don't see any 'giant' or 'dwarf' versions of these BB... do thermally made sperules 'stop' growing, what causes this (pressure, temp) ? ? And why are there no relly sall ones?

rgcarnes · 2004-03-03 01:03:46

The answer to the first question is more than a little analogous to asking why there are no large droplets from a spray gun when the trigger is fully depressed--The energy added to the fluid (or melt) is enough to disrupt a droplet above a certain size before it can solidify throughout. There may be secondary collisions of fluid droplets, cooling but not completely solidified, resulting in those partially merged multiples.

Likely sources of enough energy to melt martian regolith? Obviously vulcanism and meteor impact and combinations of the two.

As an example of meteor impact, earlier today I looked at the asteroid impact risk page that NASA updates regularly, and observed that highest on the risk list is an object that is roughly 1.5 kilometers in diameter and having a collision velocity about 30 kilometers per second.

The projected impact energy to be released (extremely low probability of it happening around 2023) is equivalent to about 6 X 10 to the fifth million tons of TNT. The largest single atomic blast (done by the Russians during Kruschiev's time) had an energy release of about 60 megatons of TNT according to US instruments. The energy release by the specific single slightly possible impact event would be 10,000 times greater!

There is sufficient energy available to melt rock and regolith, and maybe even punch through to release vulcanism.

Consider the apparent lack of small spheres. A reason I would suggest that this may be true is that by rule of thumb, when a high velocity particle has interacted with a mass of atmosphere equivalent to it's own mass, it has been decelerated to terminal velocity. The range of the more massive spheres is much greater than the smaller ones, especially if the larger units can make it upward through most of the near surface gasses.

On the other hand, if we had more magnification and the environment had not degraded them (they would have a very large surface area per mass for chemical reactions to take place on) we would probably see some small spheres.

ERRORIST · 2004-03-03 01:55:44

What if the spheres are Hematite? Today they called them concreations because of the interaction with water.Now that we know the bedrock has very high percentage of sulfur, and it was drenched in water at somepoint in time,is it possible those spheres are fossilized? Does Hematite take over minerals through digenisis?

chaosman · 2004-03-03 04:01:01

NASA doesn't belive in vulcanic or meteor origin anymore.

They think they found concretions.

(Whatever that means for the fossil hypothesis, which they didn't mention jet)

rgcarnes · 2004-03-04 18:06:46

Every example of concretion I can currently remember seems to have had some form of onion-like structure. Has anyone seen evidence of this amoung the partially ground away Mars spheres?

It seems to me that there might still be room for all: volcanic, meteor impact, and concretion. Can't say that fossils are impossible either. After all, aren't some concretions fossilized voids?

atomoid · 2004-03-06 18:38:48

some comment a few days ago, i cant find it, made the observation about the spherules all being the same size, which seems to be pretty much true since all the ones we see are all very similarly sized, almost exactly. So the mystery has remained: How come the spherules are all formed to be the same size? does this favor the concretion or tectite orgin theories (does size matter)?

I think there were a few smaller ones seen on the ground but that might be explained by post-spherule-creation erosional factors, however interesting that scenario may be. And although there was the "double sphereule" with a small one attached to a normal sized one to form a double globule, thats kind of a unique situation.

Now for the first time (as far as ive seen) is a [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1316 … 1.JPG.html]clear picture of a smaller spherule in the bedrock.

ERRORIST · 2004-03-06 21:47:05

If you look at the small one in the bed rock that it is attached to, it is not erroded away at the point where they both make contact. Compare it to the large one, and you can see the bedrock is erroed away at the point of contact, as if it is eating the sulfur, and then growing into the space that it just ate.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-03-06 22:12:18

As soon as I heard that the blueberries were concretions, which form slowly in water percolating through soft rock, I immediately thought of pearls. As you probably know, pearls form when shellfish such as oysters get an irritating grain of sand or suchlike into their soft inner parts. Their response is to coat the irritant in smooth material to ease the irritation ... et voila .. pearls!

Now, I'm not trying to say the martian blueberries were created by martian shellfish, but I just imagined they would probably originate with a small particle of something around which a sphere would precipitate gradually out of the mineral rich water - like a pearl but without the biology.

But then today I came across [http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/oct/papr/geo_conc.html]THIS ARTICLE, which contains some interesting information about concretions and the particles which form their nuclei.

Here are a couple of the most interesting paragraphs:-

Concretions, the most varied-shaped rocks of the sedimentary world, occur when a considerable amount of cementing material precipitates locally around a nucleus, often organic, such as a leaf, tooth, piece of shell or fossil.
Concretions vary in size, shape, hardness, and color, from objects that require a magnifying lens to be clearly visible to huge bodies 10 feet in diameter and weighing several hundred pounds.

I know these blueberries are martian and we have to consider the fact that the different environment on Mars may lead to geological features quite different to terrestrial ones. And I know that just because the most common nucleus for an earthly concretion is some form of biological detritus, doesn't mean the blueberries have to have biological material in their cores.
But the above article has suddenly made me much more curious about the dark spot in the middle of ERRORIST's blueberry!!
:;):

It may just be a grain of haematite or basalt, I know, but what if it's something more interesting?
???

Mad Grad Student is asking people to make bets on what we'll find over at Endurance crater. I might like to bet we'll find more and bigger concretions at the greater depths made visible to us by the bigger impact. And maybe we'll find a fossil ... who knows? (Wishful thinking, I suppose.)

ERRORIST · 2004-03-06 22:40:41

Shaun Barrett,
I sure hope they find something like you say. How far away is spirit now?

rgcarnes · 2004-03-06 23:08:43

Dr K

This may be somewhat of a late reply, but thanks for the link you provided to the site with both anaglyphs and stereo pairs.

As my eyes do not see red as well as some other people, (I do see red some) the stereo pairs were best for me, as I do see 3D by the crossed eye method fairly well.

The biggest revelation for me was the appearance of apparent bubbles within the spheres, meaning that at least some of the spheres in the link you provided are partially transparent.

Those of you who have not looked at the link have probably not seen this spatial relation. To reiterate, some of the spots seen in the 2D view are quite apparently bubbles within the at least semi-transparent glassy looking bodies when viewed in three dimensions.

The best spheres to study are the rather large one in the link image next to the mid-sized pock-marked one. The pock-marked one in particular appears very different in 3D.

Also, for those of you missing small spheres, the background the larger spheres are in seems to show a lot of them.

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Re: Broken spherele has dark spot inside it????

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#9 2004-02-24 20:27:36

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#11 2004-02-24 21:32:17

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#12 2004-02-29 08:01:43

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#13 2004-03-01 02:14:28

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#14 2004-03-01 08:03:42

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#15 2004-03-01 22:20:22

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#19 2004-03-03 04:01:01

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