New Mars Forums

stevep

Member

From: Pennsylvania

Registered: 2004-02-22

Posts: 1

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/bysol/2-049.html]More useless microphotos

Why is the the microphoto camera used by Spirit and Opportunity such a useless piece of junk?

Far too many of the images it produces are out of focus and thus useless. When stuff is in focus it would seem to be more by luck than judgement

One would have thought that with a budget of $400 million per lander NASA could have afforded a reliable camera. I have a ?300 digital camera made by Canon that can do better than that in macro mode. I've seen some cameras that can focus right down to the dust on the front lens element, so what's the problem?

Autofocusing systems which scan back and forth across the full mechanical focus range electronically hunting for the image of maximum contrast work just fine. What is Spirit and Opportunitys camera using? Whoever designed it should be fired. Next time NASA  should contract out the cameras to a company such as Canon, Nikon or Pentax which knows what it's doing. Such poor performance would never be accepted in the domestic market.

Yours in frustration, and somewhat fed up of looking at grey fuzz. What a waste of time.

Quite agree. It makes me wonder if they purposefully 'smudge' up some shots?! The cam surely cannot be that bad?
Please someone tell me what the round orb (sun?moon?) we see so much of - multiple shots of the same light blob with a slight honey comb on surface? help..help?
History is being made. Congrats to the teams!

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Why is the the microphoto camera used by Spirit and Opportunity such a useless piece of junk?

Far too many of the images it produces are out of focus and thus useless. When stuff is in focus it would seem to be more by luck than judgement

First of all, the the microscopic imager is a fixed-focus camera - for simplicity I'm sure. How would you like a multi-million $$$ mission become crippled because the fancy auto-focus system of an important camera fails under the extreme conditions? Fortunately, the KISS rule seems to have been used by JPL. (Did you know that all the cameras on the rovers use the same CCD design?)

Second, it takes a series of images with the camera moving slightly closer each time on purpose - JPL uses this data to create 3D views/models of the imaged area (see [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … B019R1.jpg]example and [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … -A13R1.jpg]example) - this also of course increases the odds of finding the right focus for the next attempt (if any).

Third, yes - this will inevitably lead to "missed" images, since both A) the calculated distance to the object might be off a bit, and B) the robot arm (while extremely accurate) might be off slightly. But so what is the big deaL? Just take another series of images.

Link

Member

From: Mt. Vernon, OH

Registered: 2004-02-02

Posts: 16

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Lars_j,

  You are right on, refer to the following link

[http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/Projects/M … mager.html]microscopic_imager

Link

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Also, you got to keep in mind that the lightlevels on Mars are lower than on earth, regular auto-focus doesn't work that well in such conditions. And again, lower light means bigger operture-openings (/f) leading to a more shallow depth of field

(i hope i got the technical terms right, optics in English is not my forte...)

... And it isn't that easy to build a reliable camera for near vacuum, wild temperature fluctuations...either, so i think they did a good job!

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Why is the the microphoto camera used by Spirit and Opportunity such a useless piece of junk?

Far too many of the images it produces are out of focus and thus useless. When stuff is in focus it would seem to be more by luck than judgement

First of all, the the microscopic imager is a fixed-focus camera - for simplicity I'm sure. How would you like a multi-million $$$ mission become crippled because the fancy auto-focus system of an important camera fails under the extreme conditions? Fortunately, the KISS rule seems to have been used by JPL. (Did you know that all the cameras on the rovers use the same CCD design?)

Third, yes - this will inevitably lead to "missed" images, since both A) the calculated distance to the object might be off a bit, and B) the robot arm (while extremely accurate) might be off slightly. But so what is the big deaL? Just take another series of images.

Fixed focus?... lol... so it is a Box Brownie on a stick...how delightfully 19th century.

missed images?...how about missed sequences. And on a mission with a designed life of 90 days (hopefully a lot longer) they dont have time to waste.

a reliable autofocus system adding a few ounces of weight couldn't have been that difficult... then other images a few mm above and below the plane of optimum focus could be part of the programming. It could also be designed to 'fail safe' leaving the lens at the hyperfocal distance, at which point the 'Brownie on a stick' technique could take over.

Rxke
Also, you got to keep in mind that the lightlevels on Mars are lower than on earth, regular auto-focus doesn't work that well in such conditions. And again, lower light means bigger operture-openings (/f) leading to a more shallow depth of field"

the light is full sunshine in an atmosphere 100 times thinner that Earths with no significant cloud cover - and sofar, no major duststorm to contend with. Keeping fingers crossed on that one. The light is dimmer but isnt that dim. Certainly a lot brighter than heavy cloud on Earth - and my digital cameras autofocus can cope with that just fine

And there are ways round the low light problem...my camera automatically sends out a small beam of red light when the ambient light gets too low

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

[=http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N130763663EFF0454P1817L0M1.JPG.html]Hey! carefull boys!

Dont tip it over!

Link

Member

From: Mt. Vernon, OH

Registered: 2004-02-02

Posts: 16

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

SohoBoy,

Perhaps you Brits/Euros should spend a little more money and work on your landings

Just a friendly jab, heheheh

Link

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

SohoBoy,

Perhaps you Brits/Euros should spend a little more money and work on your landings

Just a friendly jab, heheheh

Link

no problemo...

Always thought it was an outside shot myself... done on the cheap and in short order as an afterthought bolt-on to the real mission, ESA's Mars Espress orbiter, by a bunch of amateurs (university professors and post-grad students and a motley crew of mainly British and European companies) who had never done a space mission before. At least NASA has had 40 yrs of practice and accumulated experience, so they should be getting reasonably good at it by now.

We had an excellent TV documentary about the whole Beagle caper. The boss Colin.. ummm... forgotten his name... Professor Muttonchops...seemed to spend half of his time scrabbling around for funding. The parachute testing consisted of throwing the package out of the back of a cargo plane...once. And ESA were constantly shaving their weight allowance during the development process, as the extra kilos originally thought surplus to requirements were reclaimed by Mars Express orbiter. The most serious problem they had was getting the landing bag to work - bursting on inflation. Given that scenario and the failure rate of all missions that have ever been sent to Mars, I wasn't really surprised when the Beagle went quiet.

Nice try...I'm sure it was worth it for the experience gained. Hopefully we'll have another go one day

1smlstp

Member

From: 3rd planet

Registered: 2004-01-29

Posts: 32

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

If you look at
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2M1.JPG
you will notice one spherule (under the double one) that shows two intersections.

If I look closely I see:

1. Some kind of a core
2. Some kind of fine veins between the core and the outer sections
3. Some kind of "cellular structure"

It looks very much similar to a plant intersection to me.

Is this just wishful thinking ? Are my eyes playing tricks to me ?
Anybody else with the same impressions ?

Chaosman,
Yes, I see what looks to be a spherule that has been fractured. It's directly below the intact "double" spherule (for lack of a better term). I too see what looks to be a core and other fine features. This is REALLY exciting. I'm surprised nobody is talking about seeing inside a spherule. It's something we've all been waiting to see.

Regarding the thread everybody has been talking about.
Craig Covault of Aviation Week asked about the thread at last Thursday's press conferences. He said there were 3 pictures with threads in them. Steve Squyers spoke in detail about this for about 3 minutes describing the size etc.. He thinks it could be airbag material. He said he would be more interested if they found these threads far away from the landing site where they would be less likely to find airbag material. You can watch the whole press conference at the link below or you can fast-forward 32 minutes in to the press conference if you're just interested in the threads.

[rtsp://video.c-span.org/15days/e021904_nasa.rm]rtsp://video.c-span.org/15days/e021904_nasa.rm

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Maybe this is the right place to post this question: this is the only serious&scientific mars forum I was able to find. I found another one, where poeple says they can see stairs, bricks, faces, plants and animals in spirit/opportunity photos...

What i THINK to see is strange, but not SO strange!

Look at this image:

(You can see an enlarged version [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 50R2M1.JPG]here)

What I THINK I see is a strange "artifact": do you see that strange "90 degree rock" on the right? Doesn't it look like a rock eroded by repeated dragging of something heavy over it?
Maybe it could be erosion due to water or lava, but it is really strange.

Then look at the left part of the image: you can see something similar to "tracks", similar to those one left by ancient Roman wooden wheels over ancient Roman "streets" made with flat rocks.
I don't mean Romans went to Mars before us , I am just saying they are quite strange formations.

Any idea?

Luca

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Really, REALLY strange outcrop (and a great site for Spirit/Opportunity imagery):
([http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N130502231EFF0448P1861R0M1.JPG.html]zoom) 

([http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N130502269EFF0448P1861L0M1.JPG.html]zoom)

But THESE actually look like water tracks:
([http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N130502194EFF0448P1861L0M1.JPG]Zoom)

I don't know what to think, do you?...
Luca

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

[=http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040223/sc_nm/space_mars_dc_1]El Capitan

*Hopefully that will commence soon. 

As for this:  "The rover has yet to climb out of the small crater onto the flat Meridiani Planum to examine a large deposit of what may be water-formed hematite."

Hopefully -that- will commence soon as well.  Criminy, time is limited for those rovers...let's get a move on! 

"...scientists are excitedly speculating that discoveries made by a Mars rover over the weekend will help them finally unravel whether water played a role in the Red Planet's geologic history, a science team member said on Monday."

I'll be on the edge of my seat too.

Also, Spirit has traveled 328 feet from its landing site.  Can you believe just a few weeks ago it was almost pronounced "dead"? 

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Maybe this is the right place to post this question: this is the only serious&scientific mars forum I was able to find. I found another one, where poeple says they can see stairs, bricks, faces, plants and animals in spirit/opportunity photos...

What i THINK to see is strange, but not SO strange!

Look at this image:

(You can see an enlarged version [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 50R2M1.JPG]here)

What I THINK I see is a strange "artifact": do you see that strange "90 degree rock" on the right? Doesn't it look like a rock eroded by repeated dragging of something heavy over it?
Maybe it could be erosion due to water or lava, but it is really strange.

If you look at some of the smaller rocks towards to foreground you can see similar erosion of the rocks. If it had only been the large rocks in the back of the shot I'd probably be jumping up and down thinking it was the result of something other than a natural occurance, as it appears in the other rocks it looks to be natural to me. I don't know how they became eroded in such a manner, does anyone know if a sandstorm can cut rock like that if it is a regular occurance? I'd like to say it had been cut away by water but that just wishful thinking on my part.

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

The closer you get, the stranger it gets...

([http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P129690039EFF0322P2261R5M1.JPG]zoom)               [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1296 … 61R1M1.JPG](zoom)

Very unusual natural formations, IMHO.

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Very unusual natural formations, IMHO.

Unusual yes, but then Earth has plenty of unusual natural formations that until you know how it was formed could be open to any explanation as to how it was formed. Just think of the giants causeway, say you had no knowledge of science or geology, you are walking along one day and you stumble across [http://www.globosapiens.net/pictures/gi … 1.html?c=1]this view, what would your first thoughts honestly be.
We are looking at Mars with 21st century eyes, but in many ways we are still like the hunter-gatherers wandering in search of food and coming upon sights that we are at a loss to explain.
As to the marked rocks, I am still of the opinion that it is naturally formed. I would like to be wrong however

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

I don't see how those formations would be so strange. It seems pretty likely that the "bedrock" was shattered by the impact that created the crater, and then eroded further.

Of course what created the "bedrock", and how much of the erosion was pre-(water?) and post-(wind + sand) impact is still unknown.

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

I don't see how those formations would be so strange. It seems pretty likely that the "bedrock" was shattered by the impact that created the crater, and then eroded further.

By what?!?

Of course what created the "bedrock", and how much of the erosion was pre-(water?) and post-(wind + sand) impact is still unknown.

What is strange to me is the 90? erosion... I can't imagine water or wind turning 90?

Luca
---

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Erosion doesn't just work along winds or water currents. Softer parts of the rocks will be eroded off first, leaving stronger layers as "ridges" sticking out.

As the impact shattered the rock, several pieces were tumbled around a bit, leaving some rocks facing different directions. As the wind started eroding the rocks, the soft rock areas eroded faster. I see no problem weith these "erosion" lines being turned 90 degrees from lines on other rocks.

atomoid

Member

From: Santa Cruz, CA

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Regarding the little 90 degree rock outcrop, its also in this [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/stereo … 1351-F.jpg]3D view from afar (although slightly out-of-focus).
but best yet, in this [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/stereo … 3625-N.jpg]3D view from above

You can see that this little ridge is pretty narrow and would, at first glance, appear to represent a collection of harder layers of the bedrock itself. I suspect that the meteor impact would have upheaved the bedrock at the crater perimeter to rest about 90 degrees from it original orientation like this. however, the orientation of this "harder layer" if it is such, appears to be perpendicular to the many smaller layers such as seen in this picture of [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 3M1M1.HTML] El Capitan from sol 29 right next to it, casting doubt that it is a collection of harder layers in the same plane, how could such a formation form? any geologists in the house? so its a "layer" that goes perpendicular to its constituent layers. probably eroded by "normal" forces (on mars even): that is, the softer rock goes away first if there are forces acting on it. well, we havent seen it up close yet, perhaps this rock is in a different orintation form the other rocks next to it, meaning some of the "bedrock" is really half-buried blocks that were tossed around by the impact and so many will reveal altering planes of layering in the current orientation from each other......so on it goes, each observation raising progressively more baffling questions... gotta love it!

-- Favorite quote of the day:
"The boss Colin.. ummm... forgotten his name... Professor Muttonchops...seemed to spend half of his time scrabbling around for funding."  --i was thinking about how much i wanted to go back to school and become a planetary scientist, then woke up...

---

"I think it would be a good idea". - [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mahatma_Gandhi/]Mahatma Gandhi[/url], when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

Shaun Barrett

Member

From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

This discussion is running concurrently in two separate threads here at "Unmanned Probes".

---

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Marineris Sauce

Banned

From: Toronto, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-15

Posts: 39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

A little OT here but,
Anyone know when the next Nasa MER broadcast will be? Seems they are making their press briefings fewer and fewer. I've been to both the Nasa TV page and C-Span and can't find much. Any other sites keeping up to date on the briefings, that anyone knows of?

Dr. K

InActive

Registered: 2004-01-16

Posts: 6

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

A little OT here but,
Anyone know when the next Nasa MER broadcast will be? Seems they are making their press briefings fewer and fewer. I've been to both the Nasa TV page and C-Span and can't find much. Any other sites keeping up to date on the briefings, that anyone knows of?

Next conference should be Thursday.
Check the [http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Spaceflight Now Status Page for concise explanations of the press briefs and notifications of the next ones.
For only a few $$ membership (monthly, yearly, etc.) you can download all of the press briefings (and more) as Quicktime movies too!

There are others who transcribe the briefings as well in their blogs, such as [http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/]Adot's Notblog.

Lots of good information (including these and many more links) available at:
[http://axonchisel.net/etc/space/mars-ex … ights.html](AXCH) 2004 Mars Exploration Rovers - Status, Technical Info, History.

1smlstp

Member

From: 3rd planet

Registered: 2004-01-29

Posts: 32

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Anyone know when the next Nasa MER broadcast will be? Seems they are making their press briefings fewer and fewer.

Like Dr. K said the next one is on Thursday. At the last press conference they said that they are only going to be having 1 press conference a week and it will be on Thursday's at 10:00AM PST (1:00PM EST, 6:00PM UTC).

Marineris Sauce

Banned

From: Toronto, Canada

Registered: 2004-01-15

Posts: 39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

Much obliged Dr.K & 1smlstp !! :up:

Lars_J

Member

Registered: 2004-02-11

Posts: 82

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads

It looks like Opportunity has finally done some "RAT"ting on its own on the outcrop:

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 59M2M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2M1.JPG

Some observations:
- Check out that beautiful layering inside the blueberry! The lines inside the "berry" seem to follow the lines in the surrounding rock, which I guess means that the blueberries actually formed inside the rock (Or at least that one did) - right?
- Those weird elongated indentations seem to exist inside the rock as well
- This outcrop material is a lot softer than Adirondack.