James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

Rxke · 2004-02-01 04:08:21

[=http://www.astrobio.net/news/article813.html]Astrobiology site

James commisioned CG- renders from NASA...

EDIT: OOPS... HE rendered the NASA reference design, got it the other way round...

Cameron: "I've been very interested in the Humans to Mars movement --the 'Mars Underground' -- and I've done a tremendous amount of personal research for a novel, a miniseries, and a 3-D film."

Rxke · 2004-02-01 04:41:50

"The stages of the Cameron's Mars Reference Design take a crew and cargo ship from a heavy-lift launch to the flat, red plains of Mars. See the slideshow version.

A Biconic Aeroshell and Fairing is used to transport payloads into space atop a heavy launch vehicle. A single cargo mission will preceed the crew to Mars. The cargo mission provides all the necessary equipment a Mars crew will require to explore the Martian surface for 500 to 600 days"

Hmmm... Just *who* has he been talking with? People in Johnson Space Centre, he says...:cool:

RobS · 2004-02-01 09:36:22

Cool slides. This mission is based on NASA's design reference mission, but with some interesting twists, like the lander/ascent vehicle that also has a large pressurized rover built in. I haven't yet been able to look at those slides closely enough to figure out how that will work! The mission is otherwise based on the transhab pretty heavily.

-- RobS

Rxke · 2004-02-01 10:42:58

large pressurized rover? I rather call it freaking HUGE!

Very cool, of course, but i wonder how much the thing is supposed to weigh?

Ad Astra · 2004-02-01 12:09:19

It's a piece of awesome artwork, with some interesting and innovative ideas. He worked in the airbags, and I'm not too fond of that idea for the manned mission, but I think we should weigh the pros and cons before we make a decision on it. I don't think that Cameron has tasked any engineers with checking his ideas, because film directors are generally more concerned with "the art" rather than plausibility.

RobS · 2004-02-01 12:19:51

Yeah, it's a six to ten tonne vehicle, I'd guess. Big, big.

The question how big to make a "rover" (I don't like the term because it means too many different things, but we seem stuck with it) is hard to solve. There seem to be small, intermediate, and large solutions:

1. Open rovers, like Apollo. Astronauts need to wear suits when using it. These things seem to weigh 0.4 to 0.9 tonnes.

2. "Vans." They're about the size of a terrestrial van. Usually they have no airlock; you depressurize the inside to go out. They can accommodate two people. The Mars Direct pressurized rover falls in this class and weighs 1.4 tonnes. The Polish design on the Mars Society site is much bigger; 2.5 tonnes empty, 6 tonnes loaded.

3. Mobile habs. These things have airlocks and permanently pressurized interiors. They're so big, energy consumption is big too, so you have to assume a short range or a portable nuclear power source. The Romance to Reality website has some examples; one for the moon is called NOMAD.

Apparently Zubrin now leans toward, because of mass limitations, open rovers and pressurized "camper" trailers. I saw some sort of comment somewhere to that effect.

RobertDyck · 2004-02-01 17:04:43

Apparently Zubrin now leans toward, because of mass limitations, open rovers and pressurized "camper" trailers. I saw some sort of comment somewhere to that effect.

That's what he told me at the last Mars Society convention. Hint: you all should go to the next one.

Ad Astra · 2004-02-01 23:05:40

I've always imagined the rover as a kind of "Mars Humvee" due to the rugged nature of Mars. In fact, the Mars Society has a specially-modified Hummer with treads instead of wheels for one of the research stations.

Michael Bloxham · 2004-02-01 23:44:27

5 tonne rovers? That's why Mars Direct should have a dedicated cargo vehicle for large pressurized rovers, inflatable habs, spare parts, and other miscellaneous, not mission critical hardware. A cargo vehicle won't necessarily need an HLLV either, and ideally could be launched before the usual launch window; kept in earth orbit before heading off to mars.

RobertDyck · 2004-02-02 16:02:08

I've always imagined the rover as a kind of "Mars Humvee" due to the rugged nature of Mars. In fact, the Mars Society has a specially-modified Hummer with treads instead of wheels for one of the research stations.

That vehicle is part of the NASA [http://www.marsonearth.org/]Haughton-Mars Project (HMP), not the Mars Society's [http://www.marssociety.org/arctic/index.asp]Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station (FMARS).

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-02 19:58:14

Yeah, if we're getting so good with air-bag landings within tight landing ellipses on Mars, maybe we could dump lots of equipment there before sending the crew!
Not just the bare minimum, I mean a let's-do-it-in-style kind of effort as Michael hinted at here. We could stockpile large interconnecting inflatable habitats (including a spacious recreation hab with a swimming pool - to be filled with purified martian water), a large pressurised rover, large earthmover (mars mover! ), nuclear reactors, etc. We could drop off everything necessary for a serious martian village before sending the people if you really wanted to avoid the flags-and-footprints routine.
The crewed lander could carry a lighter open rover in case the cargo landers didn't all land as close to their target as desirable. The crew could drive over to the marsmover, deploy it and use it to drag the other components to a suitable site for connection and inflation.
The marsmover would then be useful for covering the habs with regolith for radiation protection and for other construction and heavy-lifting requirements.

I know, I know!! It does sound like I've been drinking again! :laugh:
But if anyone here is prepared to humour me for a moment, is there a practical limit to how heavy an airbag assisted landing can be?
???

Michael Bloxham · 2004-02-02 22:26:19

Shaun, I think you just elaborated on my very thoughts which sparked my above post.

I know, I know!! It does sound like I've been drinking again!

A toast to great minds! *raises alcoholic beverage* :;):

RobertDyck · 2004-02-03 08:23:32

I don't know how much an airbag can land, but the Canadian Space Agency's proposed Mars lander with multi-segment drilling rig was supposed to land with thrusters like Viking. They already had a Canadian contractor that developed a Lidar landing system. Lidar uses a scanning laser altimeter to map the terrain similar to radar, but with higher resolution. Lidar permits the on-board autopilot to make last-minute course adjustments to land at a flat, level, and rock-free location. It can literally fly sideways a few metres to find a spot. That avoids the high-G loading of an airbag landing, and sounds applicable to a manned mission. I heard somewhere that Mars Pathfinder was designed for up to 27Gs of acceleration on the initial bounce. That would make humans spam in a can. I don't know the design acceleration for spirit, but a soft landing system should be considered for the Hab, ERV or MAV, and any delicate instruments.

A swimming pool with Mars water? just how much mass would you have to land on Mars for that? You could make the air and water from Mars resources, use an inflatable building for the upper enclosure sealed to a soft pool liner for the swimming pool, and just excavate a hole for an in-ground pool. Let's see, imagine a pool with semi-circular ends and straight sides, 15 metres long at the middle, 5 metres wide at the waist, and 2 metres deep. Surround that with a 3 metre deck from pool edge to enclosure walls. That enclosure would have hemispherical ends and semi-cylindrical middle for a total length of 21 metres, width 11 metres, and height of 5.5 metres. The enclosure material would have 362.854 square metres, the pool liner would be 141.05 square metres, and the pressure retaining liner under the deck would be 135.4 square metres. Such a building would require 130.9 cubic metres of air and the pool would take 139.27 cubic metres of water. You would require a walking surface for the deck; would you want dirt, solid panels brought from Earth, or something made from Mars Resources? Could you make terra-cotta floor tiles from Mars regolith? Terra-cotta would require a kiln to fire them.

RobS · 2004-02-03 14:58:36

Glad to hear about the LIDAR. I doubt we'll want to land heavy cargo or people with airbags. With the current orbiters, we can choose a landing site lacking boulders; the resolution is as good as half a meter. And Gusev crater shows us there are places without them.

I wouldn't go crazy with the landers! Even with an Ares-style heavy lifter you can only put 25 useful tonnes on Mars, maybe 50 if you use electric propulsion part of the way. The cost would be half a billion or so per landing. Two or three landers per opposition is all one could afford. But after ten years it begins to add up to quite a lot of cargo.

-- RobS

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#1 2004-02-01 04:08:21

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#2 2004-02-01 04:41:50

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#3 2004-02-01 09:36:22

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#4 2004-02-01 10:42:58

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#5 2004-02-01 12:09:19

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#6 2004-02-01 12:19:51

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#7 2004-02-01 17:04:43

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#8 2004-02-01 23:05:40

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#9 2004-02-01 23:44:27

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#10 2004-02-02 16:02:08

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#11 2004-02-02 19:58:14

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#12 2004-02-02 22:26:19

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#13 2004-02-03 08:23:32

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

#14 2004-02-03 14:58:36

Re: James Cameron's Mars Reference Design - rendered by NASA ? ? ?

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