Your nation's flag

dickbill · 2004-01-28 15:52:31

The south shall rise again and punish all those damed yankee scum in the north east...... go to france, and if you are in france jump into the sea.

I gonna Kick your asss when I go there, in the South or in Texas and guys there are too slow (in New York standard). I'm gonna : "don't waste my time, I am french, and from New York, I have no time to waste, you guys are too slow, hurry a little bit. Hey, What's that guy is doing in a white dress with that comic mask? is that a sect or something ?. In New York we don't do that like that, in France either...."

Cobra Commander · 2004-01-28 18:25:38

But still I think, of all the countries which have wielded great power, the U.S. is a very benign example by comparison with most.

A profound understatement, though one which I have oft voiced. Our relatively benign conduct, even in war, is sometimes a source of our greatest problems, yet we persist. Rightly so, I would argue, considering that we could have the current Meddle East problems solved by tomorrow morning if we really wanted to.

If we wake up one day and there's a sheet of hot glass from Kabul to the West Bank, then the charges of American aggression will have some weight.

As for the cause of my personal, deep-seated hatred and fear of Nazi-era Germany, I'm not really sure where that comes from. Perhaps it's those chilling images of watching the public worshipping Hilter as an all-compassing deity. Or the stories of men, women and children being shoved into the gas chambers and crematoria as the world tottered on the brink of civilization-ending destruction. I, for one, am quite glad of the way the Germans view their past...

I can understand your feelings about Nazi Germany, I share them though probably to a lesser degree. Yet I can't blame the German people in general nor quite fully muster that anti-Nazi gut instinct because my own country was allied with the most brutal, murderous regime in history. There are even times when I feel sympathy for the people of Germany at that time, soldiers included. If we are to hold a grudge against the German people for their nation's transgressions then we must also hate the Russians, Japanese and America as well. I won't do that.

Have any of you ever sat down and had a conversation a German soldier from that time? It changes your take on things a bit. Add to that the accounts passed on to me (second-hand, from relatives of the subjects) from Russian troops and if I could go back and stop the Red Army at the Ukraine... I just might do it.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-28 19:01:47

Byron writes:-

I don't mean to disparage Shaun's comment about the unique set of circumstances under which the Nazi movement came about, -but- I do feel that it's extremely important to keep the lesson of Germany of that era fresh in our minds, now and in the future. Just because it was an unlikely event doesn't mean it couldn't happen again...

I agree in principle with what you're expressing here. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and we owe it to ourselves and future generations constantly to guard against totalitarianism.
I made a study of nazi Germany some years ago, reading books such as "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and 'Berlin Diary" by William Shirer, "Inside the Third Reich" by Albert Speer, and "Barbarossa, The Russian-German Conflict 1941-45" by Alan Clark. They proved to be quite an education not only about nazism but about the way politics works and about human nature and warfare in general.
One of the conclusions I reached was that Hitler's rise to power was anything but inevitable. A series of highly unlikely events worked in concert over an implausible length of time to help propel a sociopath to a position of absolute power. By chance again, Hitler managed to gather to himself a small but extraordinary group of amoral and murderous henchmen.
So many events and personalities had to mesh together at the right times that it's almost impossible to conceive of it ever happening that way again. But I do concede that a similar sequence of events in another place and time is certainly not impossible, however unlikely it may be.
But the fact that it last occurred, to the extent that it did, in a country called Germany, doesn't convince me at all that that makes it more likely to happen in Germany again, rather than somewhere else.

I believe each generation is its own generation and should not be held hostage by the deeds of its predecessors. While past evils should be remembered so they can be prevented from recurring, they should be seen as distinct quanta in the historical continuum, isolated and distinct and individual. The sins of the fathers should not be visited upon the sons!
As I've said before, I don't believe in collective guilt.

Palomar · 2004-01-28 20:00:36

Byron writes:-
I don't mean to disparage Shaun's comment about the unique set of circumstances under which the Nazi movement came about, -but- I do feel that it's extremely important to keep the lesson of Germany of that era fresh in our minds, now and in the future. Just because it was an unlikely event doesn't mean it couldn't happen again...
One of the conclusions I reached was that Hitler's rise to power was anything but inevitable. A series of highly unlikely events worked in concert over an implausible length of time to help propel a sociopath to a position of absolute power. By chance again, Hitler managed to gather to himself a small but extraordinary group of amoral and murderous henchmen.
So many events and personalities had to mesh together at the right times that it's almost impossible to conceive of it ever happening that way again. But I do concede that a similar sequence of events in another place and time is certainly not impossible, however unlikely it may be.
But the fact that it last occurred, to the extent that it did, in a country called Germany, doesn't convince me at all that that makes it more likely to happen in Germany again, rather than somewhere else.

*I've read a book, twice I believe, in the past entitled _The Hiding Place_ by Corrie ten Boom, who was sent with her father and sister to a concentration camp for helping Jews escape. The sisters were already past 48; their father was in his 70s when this occurred.

Corrie mentioned her brother having gone to a university decades before, in Germany (I believe he studied in Berlin). Even at that time, decades prior to Hitler's rise, he told the family (devout Christians) that something very sinister was brewing within academic circles (not referring to the run-of-the-mill anti-semitism which existed among some of the populace). She recalled he had warned his family that he believed something very ominous and horrible could very likely happen to the Jews of Germany "soon."

I read another book (title forgotten) which mentioned the social conditioning of anti-semitism within some segments of society, and academics jumping on the band-wagon as well (coinciding with what Corrie's brother had seen and heard), decades prior to Hitler coming to power.

I'm sure others here are familiar with this as well...a culmination of things from long before and "behind the scenes"...

I've read quite a few books about the Nazis and the Holocaust; it's mind-boggling in the most hideous way. I can only take so much of it, and haven't done any reading in that regard in quite some time.

--Cindy

P.S.: I don't believe in collective guilt either (or collective anything...such as genius, etc.).

Mundaka · 2004-01-29 04:24:50

dickbill · 2004-01-29 10:46:06

Oh yeah, dickbill, I'm a proud Southerner, and a proud Texan ( is there any other kind? ), please don't think that guy speaks for me. There were a LOT of bitter tears down here on 9/11, and they weren't for Atlanta.

Thanks Mundaka, I know, don't worry. Earthfirst has a kind of funny Dickbillesque humor and I expected some reply, but nothing yet. He ignores me ?
For me, proud french New Yorker (yes, you can be both), the prospect to move in the south is attracting but also kind of funny, as I am aware that being French and a New yorker is not the best combination possible in that conservative region.
In addition, I have the full french tendancy to criticize openly anything (meaning everything) that I found strange, this has been reinforced by a new feeling of superiority that I am a New Yorker, on top of a slight feeling of superiority that I am french.
....well, will see.

Mundaka · 2004-01-29 14:26:24

dickbill · 2004-01-29 15:22:45

That said, I've got a story about Paris: Once when I was a kid my Dad and I were were an a cafe somewhere (in Paris), he was drinking a bottle of wine and letting me have a glass too.

I'm happy that you had some good time in Paris. Parisian are somwhat identical to New Yorkers, a little bit speedy, always in a rush, and sometimes unfriendly. But like in america, every city has its different personnality.
Paris is great, but IMO too many visitors just stay in Paris and think that they've seen France. I wouldn't base my view of the USA based on New York alone. I was in Key West last year and what a contrast ! and I hope to visit more in the future.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-29 17:25:25

Great anecdotes about German soldiers and Paris, Mundaka!
I particularly liked your father's attitude to the jeering about his French language skills. A marvellous example to the selfish hotheads in the world of how to behave oneself and observe common courtesy, even in the face of unreasonable provocation.
Commendable self-discipline which I admire very much!

I found it hard to understand the behaviour of the French people baiting you, though. If I ever come across a tourist here in Australia who's having trouble with directions and/or the language, that's when I feel the most patriotic of all. I feel obliged to help them in any way I can because I'm proud of my country and I want visitors to go away with a good impression of Australians. (In addition, I guess I think of such action on my part as atonement for being so useless with 'foreign' languages when so many other people are multi-lingual! )
Overseas visitors are guests in my country and a guest should be accorded certain civilities.
I believe courtesy is a two-way street.

Mundaka · 2004-01-29 23:36:40

dickbill · 2004-01-30 09:48:51

Hey! Shawn O'Keefe is on CSPAN! Gotta go.

It's great to have a dad that you can be proud of. I am also proud of mine because we come from a very modest family (no, I am not a cousin of John Edwards) and he achieved more than I did as the same age in harder conditions, but I hope to be a good dad too.
About politic Mundaka, I don't know if I know more than you, It's just the elections time. Debates after debates, unless you don't have a TV, it's hard to ignore the politic in the US right now.
We don't see anymore the 'Bachelor', even the 'Peterson' affair is barelly mentioned. Spirit doesn't get the mediatic coverage that it deserves IMO, but I have to admit that spirit is not as spectacular as the apollo mission in term of an action-movie.

I watched O'Keefe on Cspan, hmmmf, interesting but not very exiting, it was all about politic again.
You have to admit that an energizer like Zubrin when he gets very excited, could transform that cold politically correct interview into a passionate hot show more palatable. Damn, we need action, not prozac !
Imagine Zubrin arboring a martian flag, talking in these comitte, fustigating the NASA immobilism and O'Keefe responding calmly, "yes sir, yes sir", trying to cool down the overheated martian president.

Palomar · 2004-01-31 16:25:00

I found it hard to understand the behaviour of the French people baiting you, though. If I ever come across a tourist here in Australia who's having trouble with directions and/or the language, that's when I feel the most patriotic of all. I feel obliged to help them in any way I can because I'm proud of my country and I want visitors to go away with a good impression of Australians. (In addition, I guess I think of such action on my part as atonement for being so useless with 'foreign' languages when so many other people are multi-lingual! )
Overseas visitors are guests in my country and a guest should be accorded certain civilities.
I believe courtesy is a two-way street.

*Shaun, how sweet of you! What a gentleman you are.

And I agree with your sentiments.

I know a lady who traveled with her family to a European nation which will go unnamed. She tried to communicate in their language the fact that the family needed a room for the night. They were exhausted from the long trip, had missed a vital bus connection; they arrived at the hotel weary and worn out. The clerk behind the counter pretended not to understand what Marjorie was politely saying (she repeated it to us over a dinner occasion; I know bits and pieces of that language and knew immediately what she had said...I can't believe a native speaker couldn't understand her!); he played this game at least twice (including facial grimaces and other exasperated gestures)...finally she said it in English. And she and her family were *customers*- !

Treat others the way you would like to be treated is a good ethic, IMO.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-01-31 16:57:26

In Mundaka's case I'd guess they stumbled into a local bar with older people that were, let's say, 'tourist-weary'

I've seen it in Belgium, too, even amongst Belgians, like at the seaside cities, 'them insensitive tourists come messing up our daily lives etc'

even if you are courteous, they form a certain stereotype image of 'a tourist,' and will mock 'em, no matter what...

Paris *is* a tourist center, but not all inhabitants like that...

BTW, short while ago I was in Paris, and met *very* friendly people, despite my horrible French, they were very polite and understanding... Then we went to a place to eat, and it was-again- the stereotypical Parisian un-courteousness...

It's so easy to stereotype, esp. from hearsay. But we all do it (me, too!)

A joke that French people tell, when talking about Paris, BTW: 'Beautiful city, too bad about the inhabitants'

Spider-Man · 2004-02-01 01:00:48

Indeed, as others have noted, Europe is a very different place. In America, our closest neighbors and we have hardly been warlike with one another. Other than a very brief and decisive war with Mexico in the middle of the 19th century, we haven't been at war with the few countries that surround us.
In Europe, however, some of these countries have been at one another's throats as recently as fifteen years ago. More wars -- influential and pointlessly trivial alike -- have occurred between France and Germany, in whatever form these nations took, than anywhere else in the Western World. The blood of the dead soaks the ground for over a millenium and a half. And two of the most infamous and terrible dictators, Napoleon and Hitler, came respectively from the twain European giants.

It is an indescribable miracle that these two countries in the modern day get along politically, even to form an alliance against the rest of Europe. And the price is national pride, at least in Germany's case. The teutonic nation is forever branded with a scarlet A, for Adolf. The French tend to harp on the Germans any chance they get, and ostrocize anything remotely resembling a sense of national pride.

*About 4 years ago I made the acquaintance of a woman named Katja, from Germany (she is married to an American). She went home to visit, and mentioned her father rising one morning, going outdoors, enjoying the beautiful day -- and beginning to sing old patriotic (? or semi-patriotic) German songs. Katja said her mother jumped up, ran outdoors and shut him up. I was like, "Huh? What was wrong with that?" (maybe her dad was a rotten singer, haha). Katja said it's guilt stemming from World Wars I & II, and singing songs like that is severely frowned upon. That was stunning to me (I take it they were NOT Nazi or Nazi-era songs, just old songs).

That's a perfect example, and totally true; you will get arrested if you sing the German national anthem (which is about "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit", Unity and Justice and Freedom). Germany is like the uncool kid who just wants to fit in, and will do anything to change his outward appearance, even sacrifice his own dignity to be a part of the crowd.

And they deeply, deeply hate the French for this. They mask it on the fa?ade of it, but talking with almost any German for a few hours, it becomes painfully clear how wounded the Germans all feel. But despite how tremendous their anger, all their willpower is gone. They'll never start another war, and have entirely resigned themselves to self-loathing for the rest of their days.

But to say that all European nations would find our patriotism strange is quite untrue. Look at France. They have military parades on Christmas. They have a "National Day" celebrating 'their victory over the Germans in World War I', rather ironically.
These are not a people with a very good sense of historical memory. Immutable facts such as the intrinsic and certainly heroic rescue of their self-fragmented nation by thousands of American lives laid down at their shores and in their vinyards seems to escape their recollection as they deface the graves of those very men just because they disagree with the politics of those men's decendents. Anything that hints of French inferiority to anything is anathema, or untrue. (These are vast generalizations, but one can find them easily in the pages of Le Figaro or Le Monde, and quite openly expressed.)
Contrast this supremely nationalistic attitude (more severe than the American one by far) with that of Germany's, which remembers everything wrong it ever did and feels as if it constantly has to apologize for if every moment of every day, while secretly harboring profoundest angst and loathing.

I'm very glad I live here. I think, if any Western country may, the United States has justification in its nationalism. Systematically saving both hemispheres of the world (which I remark candidly and without exaggeration) is quite a feat. Moreover, America hasn't ever tried to conquer the world. I think Finnland and Canada are the only other Western countries that can say the same. That's a pretty good record.
No wonder we salute the flag; the flag which represented the very first true sense of Freedom in the entire world's history to exist on a national level, which thusly spread to all the globe's corners like a wondrous disease; the flag which was raised in the name of Liberty for any man who lived, no matter what color his skin was; the flag that led the liberation of a continent and saved an entire race of people from extermination; the flag that briefly stood above the fallen flag of the murderous Baathist regime of Iraq, before surrendering itself to the true people's Iraqi flag.
These sanguine, argent stripes and silver, cerulean stars have been a lot of places in the world: Japan, Malaysia, Australia, Italy, China, Vietnam, France, Korea, Britain, Spain, Germany, the Philipines, Austria, and even on the Moon. And, indeed, they have in all these places represented "peace, for all Mankind."

That is what I salute. And so does any other American, wittingly or not. It is an emblem of the right to live, happily and in liberty. Any notion, European or otherwise, that an American hailing such liberal, abstract idealism as Freedom and Happiness is in any way indicative of "totalitarianism" or "imperialism" is so oxymoronic, it isn't even laughable. For all the terror, for all the destruction, for all the horrible, horrible death that Europeans have in their history caused the world over, that Europeans would insult the United States because we pride ourselves in not ever being a part of those truly imperial massacres, just comes off as petty jealousy.

But despite what general attidues exist in their psyches, I love them all. I really, really do; Europe is so wondrous and beautiful, and I love how they delightfully get along now, and that they (though some of them rarely) act in the name of peace and liberty, just as their radical philosophers once taught us. Horray for Europeans! say I. I wouldn't be learning French, Italian, German, Finnish, Spanish, Gaelic, Latin, and Greek if I didn't adore them just a li'l. I accept their misguided blunders as quaint, just as I'm sure they accept my flag-saluting as very endearing. And if not endearing, then they have the right to think whatever they want to think. But that doesn't mean I don't have the right to laugh at them right back.

dickbill · 2004-02-01 09:09:04

And two of the most infamous and terrible dictators, Napoleon and Hitler, came respectively from the twain European giants.

Napoleon = Hitler ? hmmm, it's like comparing Bush with saddam Hussein, yes, Napoleon was an invader, but he didn't organize the destruction of a particular ethnic group. He was just a warmonger, not a genocidal maniac.
He knew he had a powerful army and he decided to use it, what's new ?
Sometimes with the only reason that these invaded nations were a threat for the new french empire or used as a base by the english attackers. Remember that the young french republic, which had some genocidal blood on her hands, had been attacked before by a COALITION of foreign kigdoms. Napoleon's first war were just part of the defence of the republic, he was just a general of the republican army at that time.
After several victories and growth of his ego, he probably thought that long term success could be acquired by invasion of other countries. Mistake for him and his followers. Who doesn't make mistake.

I think I am tired to try to defend or correct false statements made about the french in general. It's part of an ambiant general propaganda in the US. Better let it go, I can't stop it.
After all, french gave false passports to Iraqis officials to ecape, they sold missile to the Iraqi army no later than 2 years ago, this has been found by valliant polish soldiers. The french gave the Iraqis replacement pieces for their weapons of mass destructions, which are hidden, somewhere, it's just that Iraq is big, the size of California. We all know that.

Have you seen that picture of Chirac handshaking Saddam with a big smile ?
[http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm]http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

Spider-Man · 2004-02-01 10:22:10

And two of the most infamous and terrible dictators, Napoleon and Hitler, came respectively from the twain European giants.
Napoleon = Hitler ? hmmm, it's like comparing Bush with saddam Hussein, yes, Napoleon was an invader, but he didn't organize the destruction of a particular ethnic group. He was just a warmonger, not a genocidal maniac.

Aye, of course the two are very different, but they are still the two most infamous dictators of modern Europe.
Both of them were pretty horrible, in two rather divergent ways: Hitler had an ideology which drove him and others to do really dreadful things to others, out of hatred and malice. Napoleon was nihilistic, and he and his followers through away life in such a careless and thoughtless manner, all for the most selfish of the Emperor's interests. It's antipathy versus apathy; both are extremely bad.

He knew he had a powerful army and he decided to use it, what's new ?
Sometimes with the only reason that these invaded nations were a threat for the new french empire or used as a base by the english attackers.

There was certainly the need to secure its borders, but I don't see the need for conquering nearly all of continental Europe on a whim. That's like the US invading Canada and annexing it just to make sure more terrorists don't enter our country, killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Canadians and Americans in the process. It just doesn't fly.

Remember that the young french republic, which had some genocidal blood on her hands, had been attacked before by a COALITION of foreign kingdoms. Napoleon's first war were just part of the defense of the republic, he was just a general of the republican army at that time.
After several victories and growth of his ego, he probably thought that long term success could be acquired by invasion of other countries. Mistake for him and his followers. Who doesn't make mistake.

Well, Hitler sure did, because that was exactly his same strategy. And both also failed when they entered Russia; that country is a death trap for tyrants.

I think I am tired to try to defend or correct false statements made about the french in general. It's part of an ambient general propaganda in the US. Better let it go, I can't stop it.

Don't say that as if anti-French sentiment is something new in the United States (a sentiment in which I do not share, but understand). The French are an inherently prideful people; as Cindy noted, they will go out of their way to humiliate Americans in public situations; a great number are all too terribly petty in their anti-American distaste.
But who can blame them; France for two hundred years was the center of the cultural world. It remained so after World War I; however, after half of it surrendered to Nazi Germany, and the other half became its puppet, a great deal of international fondness for the Gallic land and its society diminished. Indeed, the major political and cultural countries of the world were all horribly destroyed or plundered or war-torn -- except America. That's the number one reason the United States became so powerful; we were never invaded. We have not tasted citizen per citizen the blood and dirt that covered all of Europe, nor felt the fire which we ourselves lit in Japan. And so the United States contributed incredible sums of money to replenishing the infrastructure of these nations, and all of it had an American flavor; within a decade, America was the undisputed cultural center of the planet, with diminished Britain and France far from their former imperial states.

So who can blame the French for hating us so much? They had power over the whole world; and they lost it all. In truth, it is only because of themselves that they lost it so profoundly; but like some sort of fashionable bully, all the trends now come from New York instead of Paris, and we rub their French faces in it every time we teach World War II's history, each time the dwindling veterans pilgrimage to Normandy to pay homage to their fallen comrades, each time we salute our flag and the republic for which it stands.

After all, french gave false passports to Iraqis officials to escape, they sold missile to the Iraqi army no later than 2 years ago, this has been found by valliant polish soldiers. The french gave the Iraqis replacement pieces for their weapons of mass destructions, which are hidden, somewhere, it's just that Iraq is big, the size of California. We all know that.

Aye, very true, and very terrifying. It makes me want to cry... because I do love the people so much, but that the government would be so duplicitous to the world is just heartbreaking.

Have you seen that picture of Chirac handshaking Saddam with a big smile ?

Uch, yes... truly frightening:

chiracsaddam.Par.0001.ImageFile.jpg

(For what it's worth, I realize you're being rhetorically sarcastic in the above; but conveniently, your sarcasm happens to be precisely true.)

Edited by Moderator during Post Repair 2022/03/01

dickbill · 2004-02-01 11:34:35

And two of the most infamous and terrible dictators, Napoleon and Hitler, came respectively from the twain European giants.
Napoleon = Hitler ? hmmm, it's like comparing Bush with saddam Hussein, yes, Napoleon was an invader, but he didn't organize the destruction of a particular ethnic group. He was just a warmonger, not a genocidal maniac.
Aye, of course the two are very different, but they are still the two most infamous dictators of modern Europe.
Both of them were pretty horrible, in two rather divergent ways: Hitler had an ideology which drove him and others to do really dreadful things to others, out of hatred and malice. Napoleon was nihilistic, and he and his followers through away life in such a careless and thoughtless manner, all for the most selfish of the Emperor's interests. It's antipathy versus apathy; both are extremely bad.

I don't know what you call a dictator, Napoleon, IMO, was a RELIEF after the terrible french epuration just after the 1789 'revolution'. Just think about Robespierre, Danton, just mentioning therse names is frightening for me.
Those were good republican, as they described themself of course,
They said 'camarade citoyen'
The day after they cut your head.
They were aboslute murderous, bloodthirsty, maniacs, despotes. The good thing is that they were so paranoiac that they killed each other. After the 'nobility epuration' went the 'unpatriotic epuration'. These periods were called the 'TERROR white and then red'. Compared to that, the Napoleonic administration was a relief, at the exeption of the constant wars.
Napoleon became really bad when no counterpower opposed him several years later. But give Dick Cheyney, or you or me, 20 years of absolute power, and we will believe our own chimeric dreams. Power can corrupt, certainly.

The French are an inherently prideful people; as Cindy noted, they will go out of their way to humiliate Americans in public situations; a great number are all too terribly petty in their anti-American distaste.

WEll I think you exagerate a little bit but it's true. There is an antiamericanism in France. It's more directed to american behavior or politic than to american people though.
About the french behavior with tourists, that was a recognized problem and during the Clinton's administration, the french authorities asked the french hostelling profession to be nice with tourists ! For example, do not give them your worst wine just to laugh at them when they congratulate you for its delicious taste, we know it's funny but...
Recently, just after the Iraq war, free hostels nights were offered to american tourist specifically. This show the french are aware of their bad reputation.
Paris is also, is still, a sexual-fun destination, so french know that some tourists are not necessarily like the typical prude american tourist. If you go in a bar in paris where some 'american customers' are used to go, but you do not belong to that kind of tourism, the french guys there are no way to know if you are a gentle nice gentleman looking for the next cathedral to visit, or if you are his 'usual american customer' looking for more fun.

Spider-Man · 2004-02-01 19:19:06

The French are an inherently prideful people; as Cindy noted, they will go out of their way to humiliate Americans in public situations; a great number are all too terribly petty in their anti-American distaste.
WEll I think you exagerate a little bit but it's true. There is an antiamericanism in France. It's more directed to american behavior or politic than to american people though.
About the french behavior with tourists, that was a recognized problem and during the Clinton's administration, the french authorities asked the french hostelling profession to be nice with tourists ! For example, do not give them your worst wine just to laugh at them when they congratulate you for its delicious taste, we know it's funny but...
Recently, just after the Iraq war, free hostels nights were offered to american tourist specifically. This show the french are aware of their bad reputation.
Paris is also, is still, a sexual-fun destination, so french know that some tourists are not necessarily like the typical prude american tourist. If you go in a bar in paris where some 'american customers' are used to go, but you do not belong to that kind of tourism, the french guys there are no way to know if you are a gentle nice gentleman looking for the next cathedral to visit, or if you are his 'usual american customer' looking for more fun.

Qui peut dire...

?tes-vous fran?ais, monsieur?

dickbill · 2004-02-02 09:02:59

Qui peut dire...
?tes-vous fran?ais, monsieur?

Oui monsieur, je suis francais.

I can assure you that antiamericanism in France is not as widespread as the Bush administration would like you to believe. French don't like this administration, this is obvious. And I understand why this administration doesn't like the french and makes everything possible, including broadcasting false statements about the frenchs in Iraq (passeport, missiles etc, everything was false), to convict the american public that the french are wrong.
This is just that, the war in Iraq. Only one can be right, so Bush must prove that the french are wrong.

By the way, I predict that ITER, the international thermonuclear reactor facility, will be installed near Cadarache, in France. Not in Japan. For those who know, this is a really big issue. And, let be clear, this is a direct negative consequence, for the USA, of Bush policy.
Anyway the issue has been settle since the french PM declared that if it was to be installed in Japan, then the EU would settle their own thermonuclar facility in europe, bye bye the transatlantic cooperation in this billions $ project. Bush broke the international scientific cooperation, among other things.

Earthfirst · 2004-02-02 11:52:16

Howdy yall all from way down south-west that is, to dickbill you said that you were a french New yorker and that people in the south are too slow. I guess you thought that I was a proud Texan, although inspirt Iam. I am actualy from Phoenix Arizona. By the way I see new yory cars out here all the time "snow brids" and they drive slow, act stupid, and are amazed by our sunsets. I regularly yell at those New Yorkers and tell them to go home, the same with the exparioted Califorians they have taken over here. I might be nicer but the people in San Diego treat native Phoencies like trash key are car at the beach.
Anys your right I try to be funny but people just dont get it, not every thing is life or death.
So you french new yorkers should move to french cannada or jump into the atlanta ocean.
By the way French poeple are very pridful so I think they love to wave their falgs but it became uncool and did not want to get kick out of the cool nation club England did.
By the english people love there flag during guy fox days its all over the place in england, like usa on 4th july.
So not all european are so cool, also england did not join the euro money thing, they like their independence like america, maybe usa should welcome them as a member?

dickbill · 2004-02-02 12:49:57

By the way I see new yory cars out here all the time "snow brids" and they drive slow, act stupid, and are amazed by our sunsets.

Come on, it's because your roads are not good, filled with holes and dusty.
Just come in New York and see the difference, clean roads, respectfull and educated people of different religious background, often with funny hat or hairs or enturbaned people.

How many enturbaned people do you have in Arizona ? not much I bet, you guys don't see very well the difference between prairy dogs, illegal immigrants and other enturbanic people which otherwise would bring biodiversity and durable ecological development. But because the sun hits too hard, you don't understand very well these scientific concepts.

So you french new yorkers should move to french cannada or jump into the atlanta ocean.

I did the reverse actually. I lived 6 years in french canada before I decided to travel through the great great lakes ocean and join the great New York. To increase its biodiversity.

French poeple are very pridful so I think they love to wave their falgs

hmm, that's a mispelling right ?

also england did not join the euro money thing, they like their independence like america, maybe usa should welcome them as a member?

That's a good idea but I am afraid that the Queen might not agree. "It's too full of american people in America", she said.
Plus, I am not sure if you guys, way down in Arizona, Texas etc, with your accent (no offence here, but that's the truth) could deal with Prince Charles elaborate language, we in New York, we probably could, but not you.

Earthfirst · 2004-02-02 13:03:23

well first of all sometimes I like to write messages while I'm drunk in the Arizona desert looking at the stars and wondering why aliens taped your no good french mother. Do you know what I mean by taped or should I bust out the video of it.

dickbill · 2004-02-02 13:30:23

well first of all sometimes I like to write messages while I'm drunk in the Arizona desert looking at the stars and wondering why aliens taped your no good french mother. Do you know what I mean by taped or should I bust out the video of it.

hmmm, you guys I'm sure you see alien UFOs all the time, but I don't get this one. It's probably not a compliment, so better not to know.

Regarding Mars, don't tell me that you support Bush' idea to launch Martian spaceship from the Moon, you don't right ?
Be careful....it's a Mars forum here.

clark · 2004-02-02 13:35:59

Regarding Mars, don't tell me that you support Bush' idea to launch Martian spaceship from the Moon, you don't right ?
Be careful....it's a Mars forum here.

I support the idea dickbill. :laugh:

All of this came from the 1990's- and most of what we end up with will look like it came from the NASA's research for SLI back in the 1990's (when Goldin was in).

Small budgetary increases. Updated Apollo paradigm. Utilization of a Semi-Mars direct approach. Nuclear propulsion (note to the brave, look up Project Timberwind and SLI work related to nuclear propulsion).

Not to side track, but how does a government unveil work done on nuclear propulsion that has been kept secret for 20 years? Unveil is as part of a new space exploration intitiative!

hehe...

dickbill · 2004-02-02 14:00:06

Regarding Mars, don't tell me that you support Bush' idea to launch Martian spaceship from the Moon, you don't right ?
Be careful....it's a Mars forum here.
I support the idea dickbill. :laugh:
All of this came from the 1990's- and most of what we end up with will look like it came from the NASA's research for SLI back in the 1990's (when Goldin was in).

Damn, are there some guys there that support a Mars direct mission or What ?

Small budgetary increases. Updated Apollo paradigm. Utilization of a Semi-Mars direct approach. Nuclear propulsion (note to the brave, look up Project Timberwind and SLI work related to nuclear propulsion).

I know that you are a big fan of the Moon, Clark. By the way, i think NASA expect a 7%/year increase of her budget. Is that small ? I don't know, compared to Apollo yes, but we are not in the 60's anymore. I would say it's enough to support a MArs direct by end of 2015. But you know that. Well, go to the moon then, (I thought you were digging for Helium3 there).
I am confident that after the Rover missions, Mars Express and a lot of publicity, all the american public will turn towards Mars.
Especially because the issue of water on Mars will be settle once for all: we'll discover (prediction a la Dickbill) a lot of ice resting underground, in huge caves because the whole martian crust is sponge-like. Then, the issue of life will become contreversial. People will want to know, Zubrin will tell them that we can if we want, and here we are, 10 years later, OK 15 maybe, on Mars !

Not to side track, but how does a government unveil work done on nuclear propulsion that has been kept secret for 20 years? Unveil is as part of a new space exploration intitiative!

well, that may be true, I think it's a good strategy anyway.

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