Your nation's flag

Palomar · 2004-01-27 09:21:38

*Boy, this is one of those "should I?" threads...

I've seen two European contributors to New Mars mentioning flag customs (US and European).

Gennaro wrote (in the "Constitutional Amendment" thread):

"One have to understand that Europe is an extreme setting in some regards. In the USA it's obviously considered normal for school children to 'greet the flag'. Can you believe it? If you tried to suggest likewise in Swedish school for example you'd be regarded as insufficiently 'democratic' and suspended from duty on the basis of 'racism.' In Germany you'd get arrested (no kidding)."

*The other European contributor here *might* have mentioned this to me privately, so I won't call out his name.

I guess I never thought of the issue before. I've not traveled abroad (Canada and Mexico are "it" for me). I never assumed it was cultural in other nations to salute their flag or pledge allegiance or whatever; actually, I never really thought about it, relative to other nations, and of course became accustomed to standing and giving the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag in school, before sporting events (whether junior high football or professional games...and no, I'm not a sports fan), etc. "The Star Spangled Banner" is always sung prior to official gatherings (I like the song, but could do without the octave-leaping warbling many singers like to "embellish" it with). I still stand, put my hand over my heart, and give the Pledge of Allegiance during events which call for it. I don't feel this conflicts at all with my willingness to criticize my nation when I feel it deserves it OR my care and concern for other nations and their peoples (I consider myself a global citizen as well...no, scratch that: A Citizen of the Solar System <grin>).

The indications I've read seem to point to these U.S. customs as looking perhaps quasi-totalitarian or (at the very least) odd to Europeans. Does Canada salute its flag? Or Australia?

Just curious.

What I'm really wondering is why the U.S. custom would bother other nations...their lack of pledges or salutes or whatever to their flags (if indeed that's the case) don't bother me. Isn't it simply a cultural difference?

--Cindy

Gennaro · 2004-01-27 11:36:20

What I'm really wondering is why the U.S. custom would bother other nations...their lack of pledges or salutes or whatever to their flags (if indeed that's the case) don't bother me. Isn't it simply a cultural difference?

Well, it certainly doesn't bother me at all that the US has these kinds of customs. You should have seen the US team during the international soccer league for example. Compared to the European countries their players were the only ones who stood straight and seemed to care (dare?) to actually sing their anthem. Quite beautiful.
But if it makes me think of totalitarian systems? Yes it does. I always think more or less of SS-troops taking the oath to Adolf Hitler when I see American soldiers swear their allegiance. I can't help this. It's the way I've been programmed.
:;):

I also think that if you tried to introduce the American custom of saluting the flag in school, during sport games etc (I don't know, I'm not very athletic either), it would feel awkward and funny for a Swede. But that wasn't what I was referring to, since the actual reaction wouldn't be a shrug or a laugh but social and professional ostracism. You'd probably lose your job or get a severe warning from above.
It seems like some countries are denied the sense of pride in themselves that others take for granted and much for the same reasons: sweeping references to "democracy" and "humanism" or whatever. Many customs similar to those in the US have existed in the past, nonetheless.
I was using this as way of high-lighting that everything is not always what it seems in at least a few European countries, people are afraid to speak their minds, the reality has many layers and Americans should be wary of taking everything at face value. Europeans are a lot more embarrassed with overt patriotism than pornography to state an example.

Palomar · 2004-01-27 12:03:07

It seems like some countries are denied the sense of pride in themselves that others take for granted and much for the same reasons: sweeping references to "democracy" and "humanism" or whatever. Many customs similar to those in the US have existed in the past, nonetheless.
I was using this as way of high-lighting that everything is not always what it seems in at least a few European countries, people are afraid to speak their minds, the reality has many layers and Americans should be wary of taking everything at face value. Europeans are a lot more embarrassed with overt patriotism than pornography to state an example.

*About 4 years ago I made the acquaintance of a woman named Katja, from Germany (she is married to an American). She went home to visit, and mentioned her father rising one morning, going outdoors, enjoying the beautiful day -- and beginning to sing old patriotic (? or semi-patriotic) German songs. Katja said her mother jumped up, ran outdoors and shut him up. I was like, "Huh? What was wrong with that?" (maybe her dad was a rotten singer, haha). Katja said it's guilt stemming from World Wars I & II, and singing songs like that is severely frowned upon. That was stunning to me (I take it they were NOT Nazi or Nazi-era songs, just old songs).

As for your statement: "I was using this as way of high-lighting that everything is not always what it seems in at least a few European countries..."

I will never again assume that I know what a region is like, the mood and mores of its people, etc (I did that once, when I moved to a different region of the U.S. itself 12 years ago...all sorts of nasty surprises; live and learn).

For myself, I refuse to travel abroad until Bush is out of the White House and all the current ugliness has settled down. I don't feel safe anywhere but home, and would be afraid of being targeted for being a U.S. citizen.

There are a lot of folks in the U.S. (it seems) who view Europe as populated by jealous, malicious wannabes who would like nothing better than to see the U.S. go down in flames; likewise, there are a lot of folks in the U.S. (it seems) who view Europe as populated by very humanitarian, wonderful, tolerant, open-minded people (better than us).

I suspect the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes. Human nature is pretty much the same, wherever you go...at least that's what I hear.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-01-27 12:30:51

Hmmm... Don't like to talk politics online, my English is not sophisticated, nuanced enough, but I'll try.

In Europe *most* 'flag-waving' is seen as a nationalistic thing, instead of the American patriotism...

Also consider Europe has *a lot* of countries with centuries upon centuries of history laden with wars. The last 50 years have been relatively quiet (depends if you count certain eatern countries as European or not...)

Any country that would start serious 'flag waving and greeting' would be lookedupon as 'dangerous' Too proud to be good etc...

I'm from Belgium, and here it's even more complicated. A country of 10 mil people, and it's a federation... with 22 *EDIT: I meant 2 (TWO) of course! * 'federal' flags and one National...

Some people would plainly refuse to greet the national flag, even if it meant prison etc...

So we Europeans are confused with your American custom of flag greeting, we think it's nationalism, but it's in fact patriotism, wich is a whole different ballgame... (or am i wrong?)

dickbill · 2004-01-27 12:35:04

I confirm what Gennaro said. It is also true in France. The ideology of an exacerbated 'patriotism' reminds the french of "famille travail patrie", a neo-nazi slogan used by french nazi supporters during WWII, in the name of the old french "conservative" values.
Same for 'homeland', it is reminiscent of the nazi "fatherland" that german nazis used to justifly their policy.
so, combine "patriotism, conservatism and homeland" and that trigger the bad old souvenirs of the last war, in most europe.

But people are not so dumb, while these words are associated with souvenirs, they know that the context is different in the US. People in europe know that identical words might have different means depending of the cultural context. It is well known that the US have a tradition of respect for the flag and its symbol that has been lost in France after WWII because so many 'conservative' french sort of supported the nazis.
It' s like what happened after the vietnam war in the US happened in France after WWII.

But even if I am not living anymore in France , I feel like a resurgence of that european patriotism and even the old conservatism. And this is a direct effect of Bush policy.
I wouldn't be surprised if the military budget of germany, one day, will start to increase. I think it has always decreased after WWII.
Maybe I am wrong, I am no politician, you all know that.

To finish, in the US, it all depends HOW you "worship" the flag. A Dick Cheney flag-worshipping demonstration in the conservative value society (Not Halliburton of course) is very different of a Kerry (or Clark etc) demonstration. But this is the same flag, just the worshippers are different.

Byron · 2004-01-27 12:35:14

I suspect the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes. Human nature is pretty much the same, wherever you go...at least that's what I hear.

How true...I've been to many different countries around the world, and yes, while there's many differences, people are people the world over, sharing the same types of hopes and desires, dreams and fears of the future, etc.

As for your story about your German friend, I can attest to that as well, as I've never met a German who exhibits American-style nationalistic pride. WWII and the Holocaust destroyed the old Germany for good, and the Germany that exists today is essentially less than 60 years old. A significant part of this "new Germany" is the nearly complete absence of nationalistic symbols...there are no German flags flying over car dealerships, etc. Most Germans consider themselves as "European" as opposed to "German," again, it's the residual shame of being part of the Holocaust, etc.

The funny thing is, here in the American South, there is still a good deal of "Confederate" pride...even after 140 years of losing the Civil War! When I was growing up in North Carolina, I used to hear from the "old-timers" all the time about those "dammed Yankees"...as if that was a wholly separate nation that wrongly invaded the South. Just about every small town in the South (even today, in 2004) has memorial statues of fallen Confederate soldiers in front of the courthouse or city hall, and when I was going to school back in the '80's, we didn't even get Memorial Day off, as that was orginally a holiday to celebrate the victors of the Civil War. Pretty interesting, huh? Of course, I thought nothing of it growing up...hehe...that was just how things were.

clark · 2004-01-27 13:08:24

Here's one for some of my fellow Americans, when was the last time, or have you ever saluted your State flag?

I for one have never saluted my own, or any other State's flag. I imagine, like many of my fellow Americans, we would look at any who did as a bit, well, odd. So perhaps that can help us American's understand our European cousins.

It's funny to boot since our Federal system is supposed to grant greater power to the State's- in effect, each American has dual citizenship- US, and their State of residence.

Palomar · 2004-01-27 13:20:52

Here's one for some of my fellow Americans, when was the last time, or have you ever saluted your State flag?

*I believe Rik made a really good point when he said: "Also consider Europe has *a lot* of countries with centuries upon centuries of history laden with wars. The last 50 years have been relatively quiet..."

Clark, your question is a good one, but it -might- be misleading to non-U.S. residents. There is no tradition of saluting -State- flags. If anything, the State flag is hoisted alongside (and a bit lower) of or directly beneath the U.S. flag, and the U.S. flag is saluted. Thus, I'm not surprised you have "never saluted my own, or any other State's flag." Neither have I! It's not a tradition; it isn't done. I also am not aware of any official "State songs" comparable to what "The Star Spangled Banner" is to the raising of the U.S. flag during ceremonies, etc. I'm not suggesting this should be or should not be...just pointing out that saluting State flags simply isn't done (for whatever reason).

Byron: Oh yeah, I know all about the continuing rancor between North and South. Traveling to east Texas multiple times as a kid, to visit relatives...sheesh. "Yankee Go Home" signs posted in stores, dirty looks, etc. Folks in the southern part of Arkansas were the worst. I still get a kick out of Southerners who fly the confederate flag and then act as though they are "more American than thou" as related to the U.S.A. as a whole (-and- while waving the Stars & Stripes around more enthusiastically). I like the bumpersticker with the confederate flag crossed out and the caption below it which reads: "You lost. Get over it."

--Cindy :laugh:

clark · 2004-01-27 13:27:55

California's offical Song:

I love You California
Written by F. B. Silverwood
Composed by A. F. Frankenstein

I love you, California, you're the greatest state of all
I love you in the winter, summer, spring, and in the fall.
I love your fertile valleys; your dear mountains I adore,
I love your grand old ocean and I love her rugged shore.

chorus

I love your redwood forests - love your fields of yellow grain,
I love your summer breezes, and I love your winter rain,
I love you, land of flowers; land of honey, fruit and wine,
I love you, California; you have won this heart of mine.

chorus

I love your old gray Missions - love your vineyards streteching far,
I love you, California, with your Golden Gate ajar,
I love your purple sunsets, love your skies of azure blue,
I love you, California; I just can't help loving you.

chorus

I love you, Catalina - you are very dear to me,
I love you, Tamalpais, and I love Yosemite,
I love you, Land of Sunshine, half your beauties are untold,
I loved you in my childhood, and I'll love you when I'm old.

chorus

When the snow crowned Golden Sierras
Keep their watch o'er the valleys bloom.
It is there I would be in our land by the sea,
Ev'ry breeze bearing rich perfume,
It is here nature gives of her rarest,
It is Home Sweet Home to me.
And I know when I die I shall breathe my last sigh
For my sunny California.

You can find New Mexico's song here: [http://www.50states.com/songs/newmex.htm]O, Fair New Mexico

Palomar · 2004-01-27 13:38:35

*Okay, Clark...you win on that count.

I did recall, while typing my last post, a song I learned in elementary school about Iowa (sung to the tune of "O Tannenbaum"), but I don't recall it being considered "official" (maybe it was though...).

Ah well. "From yonder Mississippi stream, to where Missouri's waters teem, O fair it is -- " (except during blizzards and ice storms and tornadoes...la la la). :laugh:

--Cindy

Gennaro · 2004-01-27 13:52:39

Ecrasez, very interesting about that German acquaintance Katja. This is exactly my experience with Germans as well, although I can't think of a good example right now.
Problem when you are determined to make a people feel ashamed of themselves rather than just vanquishing them militarily is how fair your condemnation will become. Or rather, is there anything like collective guilt?
You can probably argue that the self-inflicted patriotic taboos of the Germans are only natural, but it's clear that every Hollywood WWII movie reinforces a certain image and is it really right to punish people for generations? Everyone would think it absurd to blame the Russians for the mass murders of Lenin/Stalin.
It's probably also a matter of historical specifics, who was guilty of what, how much, and what did they know about it, but please let me stay away from that can of worms.

An absurdity I can think of akin to the forbidden singing of that old man also exist in regard to the German anthem (which was written in 1848). The first lines are never sung and then they really only mean "Germany, Germany above all else" as in before other things. It has nothing to do with being superior and stomping all around the place. But this was obviously too hard to explain to the victors so they accepted these lines as inherently evil and to be cut instead.
In such an uncompromising environment, how can one be absolutely sure about the sincerity of anything?

There are a lot of folks in the U.S. (it seems) who view Europe as populated by jealous, malicious wannabes who would like nothing better than to see the U.S. go down in flames; likewise, there are a lot of folks in the U.S. (it seems) who view Europe as populated by very humanitarian, wonderful, tolerant, open-minded people (better than us).

Agree that to some extent we probably are those malicious wannabes, but not only that. There was a time not so long ago when we were the big and important part of the world, so you can't really blame us for being a bit jealous, can you? Yet if you're a wannabe it must mean that you look up to and want to become the guys you are jealous at, in other words affirming their superiority.
Hrm, we seem to have developed a very complicated relationship...
Those europhiles make me feel a little uneasy too. As far as the above is true, we definitely don't deserve that kind of praise.

Rxke says:

"Any country that would start serious 'flag waving and greeting' would be lookedupon as 'dangerous' Too proud to be good etc...

Interesting viewpoint. Haven't really thought about it like that. But in my mind it still doesn't explain everything. The 'flag taboo' is quite recent in my opinion. It didn't start in earnest until after '68. If flag waving would be looked down upon because it (honestly) was believed to be dangerous, why wasn't it rampant in earlier times (between the wars for example) when inter-european conflict was still considered plausible, unlike today, when it's regarded as simply impossible and in the interest of no one?

dickbill · 2004-01-27 16:48:53

Now to be on-topic: around here, if someone salutes the national flag or anything like that, he'll sure have a very hard time... i think 45 years of communism with all the related nationalism BS is the explanation. Actually, i haven't seen our flag around for a few years ... ???

But that's the past, flags are just a reincarnation of the old feudalism armories and latter on of kingdom etc. Thing of the past.
What's more surprising is the form of the official Mars Society flag. A conventional, rectangular, tricolor flag, that rely on the Red Green Blue Mars of our dreams.
That got a lot of critics before, maybe we should talk about that again....

Palomar · 2004-01-27 16:56:57

*Hi dickbill. I meant to ask you about your statement:

"But even if I am not living anymore in France , I feel like a resurgence of that european patriotism and even the old conservatism..."

What exactly is "the old conservatism" of Europe? I really have no idea, and am curious. What ideals, etc.?

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-01-27 16:59:18

The responses here seem like they can essentially be condensed into one thing. The historical experience of Europeans and Americans is very different, Europe has been plagued with the brutal wars in rapid succession until very recently. America, we've only had three real wars on our soil and one of those was the Revolution. The War of 1812 was really just a continuation due to British unwillingness to withdraw from US claimed territory, backing of hostile tribes and a few other little irritations. They occupied Detroit, we invaded Canada, none of it really worked out.

In short, our country is much younger and we have less bad blood on the landmass. When we "greet" an American flag it's the same flag Americans have always looked to and we've all always been American. Such is not the case in Europe. Couple that with the fact that the US flag has never represented oppression, conquest or genocide to the vast majority of people and it's a completely different situation from our European cousins.

In short, Americans only have the one flag and it doesn't have the baggage that some, I'd go so far as to say many, European flags do.

Even the Confederate battle flag is a bit different, never really considered a "foreign" element. But then, how many other countries can you think of that honor defeated rebels? Confederate soldiers are buried at Arlington, Confederate soldiers received pensions from the US government!

Rambling again, but you get the idea.

dickbill · 2004-01-27 18:49:11

What exactly is "the old conservatism" of Europe? I really have no idea, and am curious. What ideals, etc.?

I am not sure but i think that there is a kind of proudness to be an european now.
There was first a tendancy to give more and more value to old traditional values, religious and cultural, that was the beginning.
As you know Cindy, europe is very multi-ethnic now, how these non european people integrate in these old european values, I would say more or less easily, rather less. I suppose that if you are from north african descent in france, you gonna have a hard time to swallow the story of "Our ancestors the Gallics were blond" and the same for all the old christian references (the cathedrals, the middle age and its religious mysthicism).
In short, if there is a slow re-emergence of these old values in France very similar to the old "work, family, homeland and I would add christianity" , many immigrant will fail to integrate these references.
However, Europe is a kind of old new concept that these neo-european can integrate because it is still emerging. Europe has a cultural and political ancestor however, it's called Lotharingia, Lorraine in france. It would include all the middle european regions including Belgium, Northen eastern France, Lorraine & Alsace, Luxemburg, most of Western germany, Burgundy, These regions were the base of the first european empire, more than one thousand years ago. For the people of these regions, Europe is a little bit more than an economic association. It has existed and it is still the hardcore of europe.
I understand that now things are very different, it is impossible to new immigrants and most european people to adhere to that old european background and so Europe is an emerging concept, very dynamic, very energetic. And I am afraid that this new european emerging population is scared by Dubya and his trillion dollars military programs and that they shape their new emerging european ideology in response to Dubya's vision of the world. In clear: Bush is feeding the anti-americanism of a whole new generation and severly, I hope he knows it.
One generation of these new young european people is in formation right now. In my opinion, they will constitute the most powerful society in the future (not china as everybody would say) because, mostly, they will have access to high standard of education, easy access to different languages and countries, high technology, etc.

I am a good political analyst right ? allright, back to Mars. Who cares about europe....

Rxke · 2004-01-28 03:52:57

Can you enumerate what countries do you feel are in this category , Rxke ?

Not sure what you mean BGD...

I was referring to the recent Balkan wars, some people see that region as European (i do, and those countries have their own identities, just like the 'classic' europeans have) some see them as more 'eastern-bloc'

Our pride... I think it's different for every country, heck even for every major city. For instance, i'm from Ghent, and we have a castle standing in the centre that was built in the 11th century. At that time Ghent was important, there was even a time Ghent was more important than Paris(!) long gone times, admittedly, but we have a rich history, and we're kinda proud to be part of that, to be descendants etc... It's part of our identity.

I, for one, get really irritated when people say 'old Europe' in a dismissive way. It doesn't help saying such things to make friends, it's really insulting.

But all in all i have to say: 'yes, people are people, wherever you go.'

Been to an islamic country, backpacking, and was impressed to meet people... that were *in essence* just like you and me: same dreams, same sorrrows, same happiness.

Oh yes: about the European flag... I've never seen one waving that one here either, except some eurocrats on meeting, heh.

Europe is a feeling, that we understand, but the mammoth organisation is widely frowned upon, maybe that's one of the causes of the 'swing to the right' in politics (in wich right means: less govnmnt control')

But 'right' here is, again, different as in America... And i do not dare to touch that hot potatoe, me engrish not good enough

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-28 06:49:42

I noticed that Cindy wondered about flag saluting in Australia. I've never seen it happen, except at services for our war dead or at ceremonies connected with tragedies such as the terrorist bombing in Bali, which killed so many young Australians. And even then, it's only likely to be the Prime Minister or other dignitary; not the ordinary citizens.
We wave miniature Aussie flags at international sporting events as a means of identifying the people who are doing all the outrageous screaming for their team ... us! But overt nationalism overseas, in anything but a jovial sporting sense, and particularly at home, in almost any sense, tends to embarrass Australians.
Although, if our backs are against the wall as in war, Aussies have always given and probably always will give a good account of themselves, too much ceremony and symbolism tends to make us squirm; it feels unreal and somehow 'schmaltzy' to us, I think. We're mostly just too down-to-Earth and 'ordinary' to place much emphasis on the trappings of patriotism. Perhaps we're a little too pragmatic, who knows?!!

I remember when I was ten years old, having just left an Australia where politics and patriotism and nationalism and Aussie flags had never featured in my life at all, I met a German boy of my own age on the ship as we sailed for Europe. We became friends and hung out together for the duration of the trip. Needless to say, my German was non-existent and we communicated by virtue of his near fluent command of English (God, we english-speaking people are so lazy! ).
Once, in his family's cabin, for whatever reason I can't remember, my friend managed to bring the word 'Hitler' into the conversation (this was 1966). His mother seemed to fly into an instant rage, shouting in German and slapping him about the head and shoulders. Apparently, even the very mention of that name was sufficient to attract quite severe punishment. I had to do without my playmate for all of the next day, too; he was confined to their cabin ... grounded!

I suppose much of that attitude still persists in Germany, on a private and also a public scale. To me it seems like overkill when you consider the nazi era ended nearly 60 years ago but then again, there must still be the underlying fear that maybe .. just maybe .. if the German people could succumb to such evil once, they might be capable of doing it again. Personally, I don't believe it's at all likely. Or at least, I don't think it's any more likely in Germany than anywhere else because the circumstances which led to nazism were very specific and the chances of a recurrence are vanishingly small.

In common with others here, I have absolutely no problem with Americans pledging allegiance to the flag or saluting it as often as they do. It's their culture to do so and they're happy with it, so why shouldn't they?

But behaving that way at home, in conjunction with their economic and military power abroad, makes then easy targets for accusations of neo-nazism on the part of their critics. And let's face it, every dominant power since Sumeria has never had any trouble attracting critics! It's human nature to feel antagonism and distrust toward anyone whom you perceive to be wealthier or more powerful than you are. Envy!
And, as Gennaro says, who but Europeans are more likely to feel the pain, having long been the centre of western power but now forced to play second fiddle.

But still I think, of all the countries which have wielded great power, the U.S. is a very benign example by comparison with most.

Just a few thoughts. I'll stop waffling and go away now!!

Palomar · 2004-01-28 08:37:19

I remember when I was ten years old, having just left an Australia where politics and patriotism and nationalism and Aussie flags had never featured in my life at all, I met a German boy of my own age on the ship as we sailed for Europe. We became friends and hung out together for the duration of the trip. Needless to say, my German was non-existent and we communicated by virtue of his near fluent command of English (God, we english-speaking people are so lazy! ).
Once, in his family's cabin, for whatever reason I can't remember, my friend managed to bring the word 'Hitler' into the conversation (this was 1966). His mother seemed to fly into an instant rage, shouting in German and slapping him about the head and shoulders. Apparently, even the very mention of that name was sufficient to attract quite severe punishment. I had to do without my playmate for all of the next day, too; he was confined to their cabin ... grounded!
I suppose much of that attitude still persists in Germany, on a private and also a public scale. To me it seems like overkill when you consider the nazi era ended nearly 60 years ago but then again, there must still be the underlying fear that maybe .. just maybe .. if the German people could succumb to such evil once, they might be capable of doing it again. Personally, I don't believe it's at all likely. Or at least, I don't think it's any more likely in Germany than anywhere else because the circumstances which led to nazism were very specific and the chances of a recurrence are vanishingly small.

Gennaro:

Ecrasez, very interesting about that German acquaintance Katja. This is exactly my experience with Germans as well, although I can't think of a good example right now.
Problem when you are determined to make a people feel ashamed of themselves rather than just vanquishing them militarily is how fair your condemnation will become. Or rather, is there anything like collective guilt?
You can probably argue that the self-inflicted patriotic taboos of the Germans are only natural, but it's clear that every Hollywood WWII movie reinforces a certain image and is it really right to punish people for generations? Everyone would think it absurd to blame the Russians for the mass murders of Lenin/Stalin.
It's probably also a matter of historical specifics, who was guilty of what, how much, and what did they know about it, but please let me stay away from that can of worms.

*Back to Germany and the "can of worms"...Katja also told me about a female friend of hers who also came to the U.S. A boyfriend of this woman's got mad at her about something, and called her "you Nazi bitch." That is so unfair.

I doubt Germany will live it down anytime soon. I understand the Jews not wanting to forget what happened (based on the "those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them" principle). What is sad is the fact that the Germans who DID oppose Hitler and who came to the aid of Jews (hiding them, helping them out of Germany, etc.) are often neglected or overlooked (although to the credit of Jewish holocaust museums, those folks ARE remembered and gardens for these "Righteous Gentiles" are planted and cultivated in gratitude).

What makes the situation particularly difficult for the Germans, I would imagine, are all the old newsreels of wave after wave of crowds of common German citizens saluting Hitler, beaming dreamily at him, waving flowers at him, etc.

People tend to judge based on what they see, and seldom look closer...behind the stark images (to the people opposed to him, the Germans who helped Jews, etc.).

Yep, can of worms...

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Imagine how much *more* difficult it would be for the U.S. to live down its slavery history if newsreels had existed during the slave trade, including slaves being auctioned, whipped while they worked, etc. Images are powerful (and good people opposed to oppression, slavery, etc. -- who work for justice and humanitarian ends -- are usually overlooked or denied).

Byron · 2004-01-28 09:44:30

::EDIT:: Imagine how much *more* difficult it would be for the U.S. to live down its slavery history if newsreels had existed during the slave trade, including slaves being auctioned, whipped while they worked, etc. Images are powerful (and good people opposed to oppression, slavery, etc. -- who work for justice and humanitarian ends -- are usually overlooked or denied).

You are so right about that...the U.S. would NEVER be able to live it down if the decendents of slaves could portray multimedia images of slavery upon modern-day America without end... ???

Although I'm a full-blooded American, I can certainly relate to the fear of Hilterism and Nazism....indeed, one of my favorite daydreams as a kid was playing the role of a hotshot Air Force pilot, going after the Lufewaffe without mercy. As for the cause of my personal, deep-seated hatred and fear of Nazi-era Germany, I'm not really sure where that comes from. Perhaps it's those chilling images of watching the public worshipping Hilter as an all-compassing deity. Or the stories of men, women and children being shoved into the gas chambers and crematoria as the world tottered on the brink of civilization-ending destruction. I, for one, am quite glad of the way the Germans view their past...imo, that mother may have been a bit harsh to her kid on that ship, but I certainly see the reasoning for her behavior.

I don't mean to disparage Shaun's comment about the unique set of circumstances under which the Nazi movement came about, -but- I do feel that it's extremely important to keep the lesson of Germany of that era fresh in our minds, now and in the future. Just because it was an unlikely event doesn't mean it couldn't happen again....especially with the virtually unlimited power of technology and wealth that would be available to any future meglomanic seeking global dominance.

B

Bill White · 2004-01-28 10:22:02

[=http://www.iht.com/articles/126975.html]A commentary on flags and the Bush space vision.

clark · 2004-01-28 10:37:17

Here's my commentary:

The writer serves as senior policy advisor to the presidential campaign of Representative Dennis Kucinich.

Palomar · 2004-01-28 13:22:50

*Speaking of the confederate flag, Byron:

I just now saw a news item wherein "The Sons of the Confederacy (or something very similar)" are allowed to have special license plates with that logo and the confederate flag on the plate.

They say they are trying to preserve history (like it's not in the history books already...lame, very lame) and because confederate soldiers "were fighting men." Sure they were...but what were they fighting FOR? Permanent division of the nation via succession? Maintaining the institution of slavery?

These are, no doubt, the same people who would gnash their teeth in rage to see an American-born Latino with a Mexican flag license plate or bumpersticker.

What a joke.

--Cindy

Byron · 2004-01-28 13:55:09

These are, no doubt, the same people who would gnash their teeth in rage to see an American-born Latino with a Mexican flag license plate or bumpersticker.
What a joke.
--Cindy

Those hard-core rednecks had better not come to South Florida...with all those Cuban flag stickers on the cars around here...lol. Not to mention Columbian, Peruvian, Brazilian, you get the drift...

To tell you the truth, I think a lot of these people admire the Confederate flag as a matter of regional (not to mention racial) pride, as opposed to wishing that the South had won the war. Southern blacks view this flag as a symbol of racism, while "redneck" whites see it as a symbol of Southern tradition, etc....and not surprisingly, these are the people that have a tendency to use the "N" word, although you don't hear it spoken in public like you did 25 + years ago.

I think we've come a long ways in healing some of the racial divides in this country, but we've got a LONG ways to go yet, unfortunately...

B

Earthfirst · 2004-01-28 14:01:07

The south shall rise again and punish all those damed yankee scum in the north east. And it has, not though war but with ecomonic growth, the northern citys are losing population while the West and south grow.
Also the confederate flag should be displayed, free speech and all that just becuase some people are affended does not matter. Here is strange story after the American civil war some southern were so fed up that they leth America and moved to Brazil. Were slavery was still going on, long story stort these expatered conferates started there own town like new Atlanta. But on like America it hard to run a plantion in the rain forest so the freed their slaves, most went back to america but a few stayed. So there today there decendants have become brazilins speaking portages, but still bring out the confederate flag and sing dixe at town dances.
Also Germans should be prod of there history, bening war like is not easy. So they lost 2 wars, big deal. There is alwise ww3 to look forward too. In many ways America got it spirt from germany. If you cant get along blow the other person up then brag about it.
I found it strange that during the irag war that germany did not want to invade a weaker nation?
Also as American when I see flag I respic it, for all you eru trash out there if you dont even have enough respec for own nation you dont your flag you should get out and go to france, and if you are in france jump into the sea.
I will think about the next time I enjoy some freedom frys.
Liberalism, europeans should be ashamed of them selfs.
Do even respec the EU flag.

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