Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

Cairan · 2004-01-25 19:44:18

What I have in mind would be an inflatable habitat, which really would be 3 inflatable structures imbricked like Russian dolls.

The Outer structure would be inflated first by pure water vapor and CO2. A second envelope, inside the first one, would then be inflated simultaneously with O2. A gap of about 30-90 centimeters would separate the two inflated envelopes. This gap, filled with water vapor, would slowly form an ice shell, like an igloo.

Gas would be inserted by the center of the bags, the cold Martian air would cause condensation of the water vapor, which would drip to the external sides by gravity. Pressure would be monitored so that liquid water doesn't accumulate at the base of the dome. The ice shell protects the inhabitants from incoming radiation.

Ice is able to withstand great mechanical loads. You can walk safely on a few inches thick, and drive an SUV on a meter thick sheet of ice. At the current low temperatures of Mars, it should have at least the mechanical properties approaching some low quality cements. Reinforced with carbon struts and ribs, the domes could quite possibly be very resilient even to impact from micrometeroids.

Using pure water, it would be transparent to light, but additives could be added to the water to make it more UV absorbing. Also, having a third of the gravity and seismologicaly inactive, Mars ice domes could be substantially voluminous without risks of colapse.

The arctic and antarctic regions often are compared to Mars... How about imitating the inhabitants of the Great North to protect ourselves from the harsh martian conditions?

dicktice · 2004-01-26 09:28:38

Gee, what a good idea! Obvious, now that we're sure of water-ice at the South pole.

Bill White · 2004-01-26 09:54:24

Great idea - does the following conform with your thinking?

Steam generated from an aquifer might be useful for filling an inflatable structure as described below.

I remain concerned that building at locations where the regolith has high water content could be dangerous for subsidence reasons. Melt the water underneath your settlement and your foundations could shift, causing big problems.

Therefore, spread your deflated inflatable dome in the chosen crater. Travel a safe distance away to a previously identified aquifer or othe region with high frozen water content in the regolith. Run a pipeline back to the crater, insulated PVC pipe might be sufficient. Mine water from the aquifer and boil it in a pressure vessel then pipe the steam as needed to inflate the doom.

Add atmospheric carbon dioxide as needed to the other layers for pressure to shape the dome as the water vapor freezes. Layer the interior with polyethylene and areogels to keep the interior warmth away from the ice igloo. A blanket of TransHab fabric affixed to the igloo dome interior might make a wonderful lining to add pressure integrity and thermal integrity.

Light? Collect sunlight with mirrors made from very thin reflective mylar can channel into the dome with light tubes. Also, hang a large sulfur light(s) high in the dome for natural looking light at low expense - - as cheap as LEDs.

Here is a [http://www.sulfurlamp.com/tech.htm]quick link to the sulfur lamp. Sulfur NOT sodium or sodium vapor.

Two sulfur lamps replaced 240 conventional mercury lamps, and according to DOE, they produce four times the light, from only one-third the electricity.

= = =

NASA is looking into the sulfur light for [http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/July00/KSC11970.html]growing plants in space.

But this means nuclear power, of course.

Rxke · 2004-01-26 10:11:19

Cairan, welcome!

And... GRRRReat idea!

Another advantage of ice: when it cracks under stress, no big deal, just melt it, it'll settle again, like some kind of self healing cement... Hey, you could use some kind of gridwork, mesh of heaters inside the ice, for emergency repairs... switch tem on and off aat will...

GRRREAT idea, that no one has thought about this before...

(There must be 'issues' but what are they?)

Iglo's are great... Anyone ever seen 'nanook of the North' the first documentary on film... section about the building of an iglo... later you see them all very comfy inside... Nanook made a window out of clear ice(!) so it was really bright inside it as well, the white walls reflect a lot.

Bill White · 2004-01-26 11:17:18

GRRREAT idea, that no one has thought about this before...

Actually, I believe in the Kim Stanley Robinson trilogy one community flees to a great ice cavern hollowed out under a glacier. The glacier conceals their heat emissions making it possible to hide.

Not exactly an igloo yet KSR must have realized igloos would work.

Still, Cairan's idea can be accomplished sooner rather than later - - and in real life - - merely by sending deflated domes made on Earth and filling them with Marsian air and water. Well done!

clark · 2004-01-26 11:45:36

Three inflatible structures, one with in the other?

The outside 'shell' contains water vapor and CO2, which is supposed to freeze?

Inside the frozen water vapor shell (the outermost shell), sits another shell filled with O2? (Why oxygen?)

Between these two shells is a space of 30-90 centimeters, presumably this is the 'third' shell. This shell, between the outermost shell, and the innermost shell, contains only water vapor, which will eventually turn into an ice shell.

Please correct me if I am wrong on the understanding...

The outermost shell will be subject to thermal changes from Martian weather conditions, most notably between the day and night differences of temp. Correct me if I am wrong, but some places on Mars get warm enough to cause liquid water. This would cause the shell to collapse, no?

The middle shell, the actual ice igloo, would be subject to thermal changes from the outershell, and the inner shell, which contains oxygen, and would carry heat from inside the habitat to the middle shell. If you can control for the thermal variations, and maintain the ice shell integrity, no problem, but warming heat from outside and inside would be the most taxing for this design. Not to mention that cold martian nights would cause the the heat from inside the habitat to move through the shell towards the cold- creating something of a thermal convectin current.

Pressure would be monitored so that liquid water doesn't accumulate at the base of the dome.

How do they prevent, or reverse liquid water from forming?

Cairan · 2004-01-26 12:29:34

I forgot one thing: The insulation layer...

Here's a crossview in ASCII of the structure:
. . . . . Martian atmosphere
External enveloppe
///////////// Water ice saturated with CO2
========= Insulating enveloppe
|||||||||||| Polyurethane foam emulsified with CO2
------------ Internal enveloppe
. . . . . . . . . O2 pressurized atmosphere

Ice has a rather good insulation factor, igloos can manage to keep a 30?C+ temperature gradient between inside and outside temperatures, without melting. By keeping the outermost enveloppe's pressure low enough, -after- the formation of the ice dome, it might be possible to prevent the formation of liquid water.

The reference to liquid water forming at the base and pressure monitoring is because under it's own weight, the base of the dome could have a thing layer melt, therefore a passive or even active cooling system might be employed to prevent so.

I forgot to talk about the optionnal insulation enveloppe, which could be foam inserted between the inner O2-containing enveloppe and the ice enveloppes.

Also, it might be possible to reduce strain on the material by using varying levels of pressure, going from Martian atmosphere to breathable environnement

clark · 2004-01-26 12:40:51

Wouldn't you end up blocking out most, if not all of the light with your Polyurethane foam emulsified with CO2?

By keeping the outermost enveloppe's pressure low enough, -after- the formation of the ice dome, it might be possible to prevent the formation of liquid water.

How do you lower the pressure of the outermost envelope after ice formation?

The reference to liquid water forming at the base and pressure monitoring is because under it's own weight, the base of the dome could have a thing layer melt, therefore a passive or even active cooling system might be employed to prevent so.

An active cooling system means energy, bad idea since the last thing you want to worry about is structural integrity during a power out, or grid failure.

How would a passive cooling system work on a low pressure ice shell?

I forgot to talk about the optionnal insulation enveloppe, which could be foam inserted between the inner O2-containing enveloppe and the ice enveloppes.

Okay, the insulation absorbs heat, or blocks it- but where does it take it to? There are effectively two ice shells with your idea, one nearest the outside environment, and another nearer the inside environment. The inner one, futher from the martian environment requires an ice shell to form in the external shell so that ther inner one can form- yet there could be an 'optional' insulation layer that would mitigate/temperheat exchange.

Now, how do you fix any of it? If these are shells within shells, how do you fix any of the insides if there is a leak? Considering that this is also the structure, wouldn't it be dangerous to do any work on any part of it, lest you break the entire thing?

Rxke · 2004-01-26 12:58:21

Leave it to clark to burst our (ice) bubble!

Good questions, though...

esp, the pressure at the base, and the outside temperatures getting high enough to melt the ice... Hmmmm... couldn't you do some pseudo-passive cooling with standby vacuum vessels, whe the XXXX hits the fan, they connect to basins of liquid (water) you get a pressuredrop that let water evaporate... errr... heat exchange (damn, pumps... but they could be pneumatic, no?)

Cairan, don't get depressed, there might (must) be answers to these questions....

clark · 2004-01-26 13:21:23

Since I've taken a hand at whapping the gopher, here are my thoughts...

The premise is sound, and the idea is 'cool' (haha, get it, cause it's ice... so it's cool...) But it seems like this would be a pretty way of doing something that can be done in a simpler manner.

Ice should not be the building block of a martian habitat. People live in Igloo's, true, but those same people, when given the opportunity, will use far superior materials.

So, do we need to use ice to build habitats on Mars?
I think it's safe to assume, no, we do not.

So instead of getting caught up in the sphere-oid ice dome, let's take the pieces that are useful, which primarly is the H20 radiation effects. So, we like the protection of h20, but not the building characteristics. So what can we do?

Well, we could freeze it, but there are some problems with that. So let's not freeze the water. Keep it liquid.

Instead of building a dome, or layers within layers, just build a structural wall like we have here on Earth. Create window bays of thick plastic/glass from which to view the outside. In between the walls, fill it with liquid water. So, at about a 12-18 inches thick, we have a wall of water. No dome, just a flat or steepled roof.

Think of it like taking your aquariam, and making house out of it- using the aquariams as walls. Fill with plant life, and perhaps some fish, if possible.

So in essence, you get Mars-steel wall (outer) -liquid water-steel wall (inner). Place glass bays wherever you want a window. Along the insides of the inner and outer steel walls, run biometeric sensors to monitor the status of the water (if there is a puncture, it will be easier to locate.

Rxke · 2004-01-26 13:54:58

Hmmmm... let's say a dome is 10 meters high... Wouldn't the pressure of a 10 meter H20 liquid column be too big for that?

if there is a puncture, it will be easier to locate

There goes my coffee again! second time in one hour! This board is having a real bad effect on my -by now heavily caffeine saturated-nostrils!

clark · 2004-01-26 14:00:15

Alright, I can modify this idea:

Honeycomb walls, filled with water.

Imagine a bee-hive honeycomb- each of the little pockets is filled with water, individualy, the pressure differential is meaningless, and together, they provide the rad protection.

Ice might work in this scenerio to, sine the honeycomb structure would be built of an actual structural material like steel or concrete.

Bill White · 2004-01-26 15:52:21

Hmmmm... let's say a dome is 10 meters high... Wouldn't the pressure of a 10 meter H20 liquid column be too big for that?
if there is a puncture, it will be easier to locate
There goes my coffee again! second time in one hour! This board is having a real bad effect on my -by now heavily caffeine saturated-nostrils!

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Bill White · 2004-01-26 16:04:58

Alright, I can modify this idea:
Honeycomb walls, filled with water.
Imagine a bee-hive honeycomb- each of the little pockets is filled with water, individualy, the pressure differential is meaningless, and together, they provide the rad protection.
Ice might work in this scenerio to, sine the honeycomb structure would be built of an actual structural material like steel or concrete.

A great many independent chambers or pockets each holding water or ice seems far safer than one giant frozen water bladder. Don't use the ice for structural rigidity, use it for weight to hold in the air pressure pushing upwards on the dome and to add radiation protection.

Maybe fill a ring around the base of the dome with larger water bladders and use gravity to help hold the edges down.

Set up internal pressure at 30% - 40% of Earth normal with 100% Earth normal O2 partial pressure (maybe 110% for O2 to aid human respiration) and normal CO2 partial pressures and 30% Earth normal for the inert gases (and nitrogen).

Also IMHO (as am amateur) I say abandon transparency as an objective. Use Kevlar and other TransHab tested fabrics. Channel in light via light tubes from oversized mylar concentrator farms set up adjacent to the dome and supplement with the sulfur light linked above.

Cairan · 2004-01-26 17:22:06

Transparency really is not an obligation. If thermal control requires insulation in the form of polyethylene/urethane material, so be it!

Also, the idea of inflated bubbles serving as scafolding/mold was to shorten and simplify actual deployment of the structures...

How about this: Use this technology for greenhouses, while using a more resilient honeycombed approach for habitats.

Mind you, liquid water has it's problems too... It conducts heat more efficiently than ice (which can be made to contain a high percentage of air bubbles, increasing insulation at the expanse of material strenght), and might form ice anyway in those honeycombs...

Ever forgot a soda can in the freezer because you did not have ice but you wanted it cold and you wanted it now? :;):

It's still winter you know, how about doing an experiment right now while it's still winter? How would you do it with household/warehouse stuff?

RobS · 2004-01-27 00:31:05

Keeping the outside of an ice dome cold is not a problem because the air temperature a meter or so above the ground is always way below freezing. At noon the ground may reach 50F/10C, but the air even a meter above the ground is -15F/-10C. Even on Earth we experience this; ever burned your bare feet on the sand at a beach? But the air temperature wasn't that hot. So the dome will stay hard as rock if there are two outer plastic layers with air circulation between them, using a solar-powered fan that sucks air in at the apex of the dome and blows it out at the bottom. This is all above the ice itself.

I think ice buildings may be tried on Mars, especially where ground water is abundant. If you add the water gradually and freeze it, the building practically assembles itself. The big problem I see would not be melting, but creep; ice flows slowly, which would tend to make the top thinner and the base thicker, splitting the plastic unless it is very strong.

-- RobS

Cairan · 2004-01-27 00:39:51

What about annular segments, parallel to the surface, serving has both spacers and compartimenting the ice, inside the enveloppes?

RobS · 2004-01-27 11:49:50

Maybe that would work. I wonder whether a light metal wire frame, producing a "steel reinforced ice structure" would work.

-- RobS

Cairan · 2004-01-27 18:31:01

Wires would cut into the ice like, well, cheese cutters. Remember those school experiments with a steel wire attached to weights that, left to gravity, cut itself into the ice cube? Same thing here, instead, it's the ice which moves relative to the wire...

That's why one would need a panel to stop ice flow. Maybe a combination of aluminum/carbon fiber annular spacers/ice holders held into place by longitudinal carbon ribs. Since the ice would contribute to support itself, the structure would merely prevent deformation.

clark · 2004-01-27 18:53:46

So guys, is this starting to sound like a lot of work to make an ice igloo on Mars or what?

Like I said before, very cool idea, just like crystal towers and canals running with liquid green, but not very practical.

And one lesson about living on Mars, for those intending to visit, or stay, if it ain't practical, it ain't Mars.

Cairan · 2004-01-27 23:10:32

It still is, in my opinion, one of the easiest way to build radiation shielding and protection against the elements, with self-repairing properties. Have you ever seen the building of cement, yeah, that's CEMENT, bubbles on Earth?

[http://www.monolithic.com/thedome/index.html]http://www.monolithic.com/thedome/index.html

Of any materials, I'd rather pick frozen water as a main constituant of an habitat rather than cement, steel or aluminum habitats.

At the moment, there is no cement factories, cement needs water too, steel runs into the same problem, casting elements from steel, but how does one produce steel at arrival on Mars? And make sure it's air-tight...

And where do you get your aluminum from on Mars? Electrolysys of Al-rich rocks? Fine, you need a lot of power...

So for all those constraints, I maintain the claim that ice domes of reasonable sizes (no more than two or three stories high), stabilized by internal carbon fiber struts, as was proposed in the initial proposal, along with annular flow stopers and spacers, would be best.

As for the problems of possible liquefaction of ice at the base, which I myself raised, I proposed passive cooling. Passive cooling -does not- require a lot of power, it's done on every thing sent into space, heck it's even done as we speak in the computer you're using for reading this thread!

A base annular metallic segment, in direct contact with the ice being a good heat conductor, could passively maintain a low enough contact temperature at the base to prevent pressure-induced liquefaction. Pressure in the context of "weight applied to a surface (the base)", and not "gaseous" enveloppe pressure.

Also, such a design would be very well suited for polar or mid-latitude applications. It might or might not work well for equatorial temperatures, but even so, the temperatures are so low even in summer during the night that I doubt that it would have a real impact.

RobS · 2004-01-28 13:56:02

I don't think temperature is a problem. Keep the ice structure white to reflect sunlight and it will stay the same temperature as the air, which is always below freezing. The colder, the better; ice creeps less and less as its temperature drops (though it still creeps some; look at craters on Ganymede).

If you drape the ice structure over an inflated plastic structure, the latter will keep the former from sagging in the middle. Maybe the ice will flow a bit over time and it has to be renewed. But I think some of these ideas using annulars and fibers can help a lot.

Another use of ice would be to create building elements that are heavy and easily assembled. For example, imagine a large plastic igloo dome covered by "icecube tray" plastic dividers, each of which is filled gradually with water as the interior pressure is raised. Such a design would have no ice creep at all. You would want the dome to have a few pillars inside to hold up the weight if the air escaped. But the dome could be built out of much lighter, thinner materials than if it had to resist several tonnes per square meter of upward-thrusting air pressure.

-- RobS

SpaceNut · 2021-04-04 09:09:11

bump topic to fix
that reminds me there is another listed in housekeeping from when I was on cellphone mode.

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#1 2004-01-25 19:44:18

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#2 2004-01-26 09:28:38

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#3 2004-01-26 09:54:24

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#4 2004-01-26 10:11:19

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#5 2004-01-26 11:17:18

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#6 2004-01-26 11:45:36

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#7 2004-01-26 12:29:34

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#8 2004-01-26 12:40:51

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#9 2004-01-26 12:58:21

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#10 2004-01-26 13:21:23

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#11 2004-01-26 13:54:58

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#12 2004-01-26 14:00:15

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#13 2004-01-26 15:52:21

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#14 2004-01-26 16:04:58

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#15 2004-01-26 17:22:06

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#16 2004-01-27 00:31:05

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#17 2004-01-27 00:39:51

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#18 2004-01-27 11:49:50

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#19 2004-01-27 18:31:01

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#20 2004-01-27 18:53:46

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#21 2004-01-27 23:10:32

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#22 2004-01-28 13:56:02

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

#23 2021-04-04 09:09:11

Re: Ice igloos - Ice hardened inflatable structures

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