Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

wgc · 2004-01-22 05:48:18

Anybody have a good idea were Kerry stands on any new space initiatives. From what I can find it doesn't sound like he gives the subject much priority. In fact he doesn't appear that technically minded at all.
As I find info on the candidates I plan to post it on my website at sol3.typepad.com, and add a topic for the 2004 election to the message board on that site (no registration required). But finding were the candidate stands on the issue of Space isn't as easy as I thought. Help me out guys.

Martinkh · 2004-01-22 08:39:34

I believe he is against it, typical among the Dem candidates is they would rather throw more money at social services and education. Forgetting of course that money is not going to solve education issues (nor poverty), and our schools have gotten worse and worse since the feds got involved 30 years ago.

The dems loved the kumbaya aspects of the ISS, I am sure the moon-mars issue offends them as too "unilateral" and too "cowboy".

wgc · 2004-01-22 09:51:10

Well all be eating dogfood because there won't be any enginneerig jobs... and people will wonder why, if this country doesn't invest in technology thats what will happen. Its not only space, do you see any big expenditures in physics etc,

Bill White · 2004-01-22 10:26:14

The Democratic candidates either have

(a) No coherent position on space policy; or

(b) they whine about how much everything costs and say the money would be better spent on after school basketball programs.

(b) pretty much equals (a) IMHO.

= = =

Now for the reality. Dems will NEVER talk honestly about space policy because it doesn't play to their power base which is the liberal social program wing.

But, only a very brave/foolish Democratic President will allow America to lose the ability to put humans in space. He would be eaten alive by Congress and the media.

Therefore I conclude this:

Shuttle orbiter is DEAD no matter who is President. Its just too unsafe.

The only real question on the table between now and 2008 - 2010 is whether we (a) go with Shuttle derived launchers (b) go with Delta IV CEVs; (c ) abandon humans in space for the next decade or two.

(c ) is actually easier with a Republican, IMHO, because Bush can say he is just giving the private sector a chance. Actually, that window between 2008 (prototype CEV flies) and 2014 (crewed CEV flies) is exactly this option.

Therefore a Democrat may well go to (a) SDV by default, (no matter what his campaign platform is) if only to avoid laying off 8000 - 10,000 workers in Michoud and Florida.

What the Democrats SAY before November is meaningless for what they will do AFTER November if one of them wins.

wgc · 2004-01-22 10:41:24

The Democratic candidates either have
(a) No coherent position on space policy; or
(b) they whine about how much everything costs and say the money would be better spent on after school basketball programs.
(b) pretty much equals (a) IMHO.
= = =
Now for the reality. Dems will NEVER talk honestly about space policy because it doesn't play to their power base which is the liberal social program wing.
But, only a very brave/foolish Democratic President will allow America to lose the ability to put humans in space. He would be eaten alive by Congress and the media.
Therefore I conclude this:
Shuttle orbiter is DEAD no matter who is President. Its just too unsafe.
The only real question on the table between now and 2008 - 2010 is whether we (a) go with Shuttle derived launchers (b) go with Delta IV CEVs; (c ) abandon humans in space for the next decade or two.
(c ) is actually easier with a Republican, IMHO, because Bush can say he is just giving the private sector a chance. Actually, that window between 2008 (prototype CEV flies) and 2014 (crewed CEV flies) is exactly this option.
Therefore a Democrat may well go to (a) SDV by default, (no matter what his campaign platform is) if only to avoid laying off 8000 - 10,000 workers in Michoud and Florida.
What the Democrats SAY before November is meaningless for what they will do AFTER November if one of them wins.

And Clinton really contributed so much to the space effort.
I think I will write a treatese on that alone. and post it on my site. I truely believe that we probably will be on Mars by 2020, not because of Bush's vision, but simply because some of the "Deadwood" in congress will be gone by then, either retired or dead.

I'm not crazy about some of the Dems policy, nor do I have a warm and fuzzy feeling about some Bush's.

Sneezy · 2004-01-22 10:46:18

Save yourself some trouble. NONE of the democratic hopefuls will act on any human Moon or Mars mission. Best case scenario they may support the CEV as a replacement for the shuttle only to the stage of development to rotate crews on the ISS. Forget any advanced modules (if it does in fact turn out to be modular) such as alternate propulsion, small nuclear power modules, lunar or martian landing modules, etc. Put a democrat in the white house and at best you'll get a capsule that can dock with the ISS. Write off the rest for another 4 or 8 years and tack those years onto the moon and mars timeline. Clinton supposedly had this wonderful economy and you see exactly how far space exploration changed in those 8 years with a huge budget surplus which coule have paid for a shuttle replacement easily. Worst case, he'll get in the white house and decide to recertify the shuttle in 2010 and drop the new CEV just like all the other failed shuttle replacements. If you care anything about space exploration forget the democrats exist for about the next 30 years. If they ever get in control again and pass universal health care we'll be lucky to be launching Estes model rockets as a nation.

Martinkh · 2004-01-22 14:47:41

We will not be able to launch estes as private citizens either, because they will be banned witout a permit and registration and a transfer tax.

Ian · 2004-01-22 15:07:49

I'm sure that somewhere there's a democrat that supports space exploration. Not all democrats are alike. Not all of them believe in the same things.

~Eternal~ · 2004-01-22 15:13:17

I'm sure that somewhere there's a democrat that supports space exploration. Not all democrats are alike. Not all of them believe in the same things.

I'm a Democrat thats supportive of space exploration XD.
Except I'm a Liberal Democrat that prefers Socialism over Capitalism.
I'm not entirely sure but what I've heard/gathered is that Clark is a pro-Mars Direct man who also cares about the people.
Kerry deserves to be shot, Thank You and Goodbye .

Sneezy · 2004-01-22 17:56:11

Too funny Yes, I agree there are democrats who care about space exploration but if they care at all about seeing something happen in space they need to hold their noses or whatever and vote Bush. We'll see the panel report on the new CEV and some preliminary dollar figures before the elections later this year most likely and at that time be able to make a fair judgement as to if it will ever go anywhere. If it looks strictly pie in the sky vote for whoever you wish.

wgc · 2004-01-22 18:10:30

Too funny Yes, I agree there are democrats who care about space exploration but if they care at all about seeing something happen in space they need to hold their noses or whatever and vote Bush. We'll see the panel report on the new CEV and some preliminary dollar figures before the elections later this year most likely and at that time be able to make a fair judgement as to if it will ever go anywhere. If it looks strictly pie in the sky vote for whoever you wish.

yea, but I think we're in trouble if Kerry wins New Hamphere, I'd rather take a chance with Howard Dean he seems a little more open to new ideas.

Michael Bloxham · 2004-01-22 18:49:30

Y'know what, I think its about time I created my own civilization. Care to join me?

ffsw17 · 2004-01-22 19:06:07

Anyone really interested in making a difference. Come to [http://www.redcolony.com]www.redcolony.com, where they are trying to make the future happen now.

wgc · 2004-01-22 20:09:51

Y'know what, I think its about time I created my own civilization. Care to join me?

Only if its several light years away and you have the means of getting there. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ad Astra · 2004-01-22 20:28:11

Off the top of my head, I can think of one Democrat (other than the late JFK) who really cares about space. His name is Ralph Hall, and he now calls himself a Republican.

Right now, almost all the Dems are saying, "Let's send a mission to Manhattan before a mission to Mars." Howard Dean is open to the idea of space exploration but believes that taxes should be raised to pay for it.

wgc · 2004-01-22 22:43:39

Probably the largest concentration of Mars supporters are in this forum, for the last few hours I've been fighting the "good Fight" in the space.com forum were they think manned trips to mars are a waiste of resources....

There's a whole world outside the new mars forum.

Ad Astra · 2004-01-23 07:26:24

There were two disturbing opinion pieces on newsweek.com recently regarding moon and Mars exploration. In one of them, Eleanor Clift was stating, as a matter of fact, that Spirit proved that we didn't need humans to explore Mars. Let's see her sau the same thing now as mission control tries desperately to save the mission. In another piece, the columnist (jokingly, perhaps?) compares the Bush space plan to "Space: 1999" and asserts that the underlying motive is making "moon profits" for Halliburton.

Just goes to show you that research, common sense, and theories that don't involve conspiracies are otside the grasp of journalists.

Rxke · 2004-01-23 09:04:15

wgc, agree 100%... 'Here we're preaching to the converted'

(*ahem* i hope clark doesn't take that as an offense, heh)

But space.com... I dunno, that's a place where serious discussion is virtually impossible, it always turns out to anti-pro American, nuclear, dem-rep, alien-non alien etc... you're a (fill in your favourite four letter word) flamewars...

it's just a very frustrating place... Can't remember the last time i visited, but heard a lot of people got thrown out lately etc... Pffff... It's a hevily visited place, but quantity above quality is not an option, sometimes.

wgc · 2004-01-23 10:40:12

wgc, agree 100%... 'Here we're preaching to the converted'
(*ahem* i hope clark doesn't take that as an offense, heh)
But space.com... I dunno, that's a place where serious discussion is virtually impossible, it always turns out to anti-pro American, nuclear, dem-rep, alien-non alien etc... you're a (fill in your favourite four letter word) flamewars...
it's just a very frustrating place... Can't remember the last time i visited, but heard a lot of people got thrown out lately etc... Pffff... It's a hevily visited place, but quantity above quality is not an option, sometimes.

Well I don't think I'll get thrown out, but I feel a little alone, but I'm a very opionated person. The discussion on Spirit right now is going pretty good., and I'm enjoying. Their were actually a few mars society folks who came to my defense in one post. Hey I'm new to this but I'm learning fast. I've been upset ever since the reaction to the Bush announcement, the Dems and the journalist aren't giving it chance. I've wiritten several who said the program would cost several trillion dollars... I asked them what cracker jack box they got that figure from. I blasted one Aussie newspaper from reporting yesterday that Nasa was abandoning Spirit. Seems like there is a good chance of recovering the mission. But I think manned missions though more expensive would have a better sucess rate. There was a discussion of that on space.com

I did get some story ideas however from the forum.... but I find their board hard to navigate .. I know newmars uses Ikonboard and I use InvisionBoard on my site , that infopop board they use isn't as nice.

Ian · 2004-01-24 11:55:52

There are probably many people out there who claim that human mars exploration is a waste of money but I know that eventually some nation on this planet will be interested enough to support it. I heard rumors that China wants to probably put someobdy on the moon and I know that Russia is very interested in human mars exploration.

Mundaka · 2004-01-24 18:45:28

We will not be able to launch estes as private citizens either, because they will be banned witout a permit and registration and a transfer tax.

Actually, Chucky Schuma (one of the few people on the planet who has actually inspired me to fantasies of fisticuffs) and Sen Laughtenburg are trying to get all model rocketry banned as an antiterroism measure, and have instructed the ATF to go after both hobbyists and suppliers accordingly.

wgc · 2004-01-24 19:15:19

wgc, agree 100%... 'Here we're preaching to the converted'
(*ahem* i hope clark doesn't take that as an offense, heh)
But space.com... I dunno, that's a place where serious discussion is virtually impossible, it always turns out to anti-pro American, nuclear, dem-rep, alien-non alien etc... you're a (fill in your favourite four letter word) flamewars...
it's just a very frustrating place... Can't remember the last time i visited, but heard a lot of people got thrown out lately etc... Pffff... It's a hevily visited place, but quantity above quality is not an option, sometimes.

Actually you're right I just got into a pretty heated discussion, and am probably close to getting booted, but those folks think they know eveything about eveything.

Unfortunately I get the impression that JPL engineers lurke around that site. So there's good information..... Among the garbage... Who knows I might recruit a few Mars Society members.... :laugh: :laugh:

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-24 20:15:05

I don't profess to know much about American politics but it seems unlikely that a 'Liberal Democrat' would want to spend money on visionary technology and exploration when it could be thrown into the social welfare melting pot.
In that sense, I always tend to think a Democrat in the Whitehouse will just mean higher taxes, more welfare, more economic protectionism, less reward for individual effort and less space exploration.

On the other hand, the most phenomenally progressive period of U.S. space exploration was triggered by a guy called Kennedy, who was known to have marked Democratic leanings(!! ).
And the worst case of 'walking-away-from-the-future' I think I've ever seen was perpetrated by a man called Nixon, someone not normally associated with the Democratic Party at all!

All I know is that the only two presidents in the past forty years who've called for an exciting expansion of human space exploration beyond Low Earth Orbit, have been called Bush and were Republicans.
Should I place any importance on that fact?
[And what difference does it make anyway, since I have no vote in the upcoming U.S. election in any case?!!!]
:laugh:

sethmckiness · 2004-01-25 09:23:52

All I know is that the only two presidents in the past forty years who've called for an exciting expansion of human space exploration beyond Low Earth Orbit, have been called Bush and were Republicans.

The First ones was poorly executed, and impossible to fund. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it... There are plenty of moderate democrats that support the Space program, but it's not a major issue. Should it be..
If I am not mistaken, it is a Special interest.

A special interest catering to the minds of us nerds, and the pocketbooks of the likes of Lockheed, and Boeing. (there used to be more companies but they all merged so they could get richer from the government.

As a president would you first issue be to forward the Space program when you have so many other things going on, that arguably make the space program seem trivial at points?

Just keep everything in perspective please. After All, Dubya is more concerned about Iraqi and Afghani Hearts and Minds then American ones!

Aetius · 2004-01-25 11:06:27

I am a Space.com flame war veteran, and after a while I just got burnt out defending my right-of-center political views. I am much more likely to be persuaded by rock-steady, ice-cold logic than by insults or baseless allegations. That's why I often avoid the usual political discussions.

There are many extremely knowledgable people who post there, and you can learn an *awful* lot once you separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2004-01-22 05:48:18

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#2 2004-01-22 08:39:34

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#3 2004-01-22 09:51:10

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#4 2004-01-22 10:26:14

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#5 2004-01-22 10:41:24

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#6 2004-01-22 10:46:18

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#7 2004-01-22 14:47:41

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#8 2004-01-22 15:07:49

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#9 2004-01-22 15:13:17

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#10 2004-01-22 17:56:11

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#11 2004-01-22 18:10:30

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#12 2004-01-22 18:49:30

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#13 2004-01-22 19:06:07

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#14 2004-01-22 20:09:51

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#15 2004-01-22 20:28:11

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#16 2004-01-22 22:43:39

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#17 2004-01-23 07:26:24

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#18 2004-01-23 09:04:15

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#19 2004-01-23 10:40:12

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#20 2004-01-24 11:55:52

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#21 2004-01-24 18:45:28

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#22 2004-01-24 19:15:19

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#23 2004-01-24 20:15:05

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#24 2004-01-25 09:23:52

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#25 2004-01-25 11:06:27

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

Board footer