Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

Rxke · 2004-01-23 10:02:55

looks like the mayor networks are starting to pick up the good news, too.
Amazing how Spacedaily got this so fast on their site, yahoo posted it just 6 mins ago... with nothing new to add (even less, i might say)

I'm confident this is just an error-protection issue. Probably built in the 'better safe than sorry' way: if you experience problems, shut off all non-essential stuff, and ask for help NOW. Exactly what seemed to have happened here, all the gee-whiz stuff got switched off, but 'life-support' is still functioning, so once the problem is found, it'll probably only a case of sending a 'reset' command, and hey presto: new Rover! (in the worst case minus some faulty science piece, let's hope not...)

Palomar · 2004-01-23 14:28:27

[=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040123/ap_on_sc/mars_rover_47]Update: Rover in "critical" condition --

*Article says it may take -weeks- to restore Spirit to full functioning capability.

Also, the onboard computer is sensing problems (or singular, a problem) and is trying to repeatedly reboot -- at least 60 times since Wednesday.

They're still not sure whether a software or hardware problem.

--Cindy

RoNoNFT · 2004-01-23 15:29:57

To anyone who is interested in watching NASA-TV over the internet, check this site out: [http://nasa-tv.yi.org]http://nasa-tv.yi.org

There's been a lot of info today about the Spirit rover, and some really cool landing animations. There should be stuff going on all day tomorrow too, with everyone getting ready for the Opportunity landing.

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-23 16:56:07

I just watched the CSPAN.org replay of NASA TV. I'm kind of disappointed now, but my hopes are still quite high. I'm worried that the constant reboots (60 or so per sol) are going to damage Spirit even more than it already is. You'd think the first thing they'd do is send up a command saying "stop rebooting and do a cold start, silly!" but on reflection it makes sense to figure out what is causing the reboots rather than restart and have everything working fine only to have the problem creep up again.

It seems like the problem occured during an operation with the mini-TES mirror. Which is quite unfortunate, if it means the end of mini-TES; quite a bit of the mission is based on results from mini-TES.

Remember guys, tomorrow night is Opportunity EDL. I may not be here, but I'll try to catch it live whereever I am.

Rxke · 2004-01-23 18:02:45

From a Spacedaily [http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-mers-04zk.html]article:

""The indications we have on two occasions is that the thing that causes the reset is not always perceived to be the same.

Man, that sounds like *bad news*

And then:
"In response to report questions about the impact on opportunity Theisinger Commented.
"It is likely, depending upon what happens in the next 48 to 72 hours, that we may not continue the Opportunity impact-to-egress with the same pace and dispatch that we did on Spirit,"

"It depends on if we can get Opportunity to a defined, sustainable state on the ground and we can continue to make progress (with) Spirit. We will likely do that and try and continue to make progress on Spirit to get it back to some level of functionality. That's a decision the project will make in consultation with management as we take the temperature of this thing over the next couple of days."

Sounds like Opportunity won't be going nowhere for a while after landing, defined sustainable can mean: no 'getting up' or worse...

Rxke · 2004-01-23 18:09:29

picking the worst news out of an article seems to be an obsession of mine....

" But the rover has been staying up through the night when it should be asleep. That can draw down its rechargeable batteries and trigger further problems. "

From [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … s_rover_49]Yahoo!

Byron · 2004-01-23 18:40:16

Might this statement (from the Yahoo! link in the previous post) qualify as the understandment of the year?

"We are not yet good at this," said Rob Manning, manager of the entry, descent and landing phase of the NASA project. "We're not at the point where you get in your car, turn the key, and get to your destination."

Here's to hope for the best for both rovers....

B

Ad Astra · 2004-01-23 20:05:52

Sixty reboots per day? Trapped in an eternal "safe mode"? Sounds like Microsoft wrote the OS for the robot!

Hopefully the same problem will not pop up on Opportunity, should it land safely. Otherwise, these missions might be able to de-rail the entire "new space vision" at NASA.

Jim Burk - MarsNews.com · 2004-01-23 22:40:52

Why does the computer keep rebooting? If it's only a software failure, a reboot should fix it (anybody who uses Windows understands that) If it's a hardware failure, why would it cause the computer to reboot? Also the computer is rebooting at different intervals, as if there are multiple things wrong. Two of the three data returns today came back without any prompting, and contained random "fill data" along with real telemetry. What's up with that??

Did anybody hear if they got back the Mossbauer and APXS measurements from the rock Adirondack? That rock is pretty peculiar... look at the left side, seems like it's covering up another rock. Look at the right side, are those horizonal holes or just shadows? There's also a patch on the right side that has a weird rough texture.

How about the last panorama of the lander... the colors (like almost every other panorama) are totally skewed red. The colors of the lander wiring, NASA logo, etc don't look anything like the pre-launch photos. Also take a look at the plastic ramps.. they seem to have reflections in them that are bluish-white! Could it be the blue sky reflecting off them?

I hope we get answers to these questions soon...

wgc · 2004-01-23 23:28:15

Latest release from jpl says they recieved a burst transmission via odyssey at 120kps, sounds like the high-gain might be working???

Anyone have anything more.

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-24 00:27:02

Jim, as far as I can tell, the reboots are akin to hot boots. Most memory is wiped, but critical areas aren't (ie, mission code, stuff like that; ths OS itself is probably ROM), so the software still exists in memory. But a cold reboot would force everything to reload, from the very beginning, and in that mode if something doesn't work, it's probably told to be ignored or something (sort of a self diagnostic; boot your computer without the keyboard plugged in and it can still boot, but it'll notice that the keyboard isn't plugged in).

This was an old trick back in the day, viruses would be able to survive hot reboots, and people thought that formatting their drive and rebooting would get rid of a given virus but they were wrong.

Odyssey or MGS do not recieve data via the high gain, they recieve via the UHF. But the fact that it's still relaying data during orbiter passes (the orbital windows were preprogrammed on pervious days, I'm sure) is a very very good thing. That's what really worried them, because they thought something really nasty had happened when Odyssey and MGS didn't hear anything (indeed, during the press briefing they noted that Odyssey/MGS were "useless" to talk to Spirit since she was missing her windows; thank goodness that has changed!).

Rxke · 2004-01-24 05:15:23

A bit off topic, but quite spectacular IMHO: The Rover seen from above:

The bright triangle seen in these images is Mars Exploration Rover Spirit's lander resting at the Gusev Crater landing site on Mars after the rover's entry, descent and landing process on Jan. 3, 2004. The left image was taken by the camera on board the orbiting Mars Global Surveyor on Jan. 19, 2004. The right image is the same image enhanced to show the contrast between the lander and the martian surface. The rover is not visible in this image due to the bright glare of the lander. (AP Photo/NASA/JPL/MSSS, HO)

Palomar · 2004-01-24 06:05:28

picking the worst news out of an article seems to be an obsession of mine....
" But the rover has been staying up through the night when it should be asleep. That can draw down its rechargeable batteries and trigger further problems. "
From [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … s_rover_49]Yahoo!

*Why can't they simply send a command to Spirit to get some rest? Or is that another catch-22 situation?

It seems Opportunity may have been fortuitously named...(although initially I thought it was a banal name choice).

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Ad Astra: "Hopefully the same problem will not pop up on Opportunity, should it land safely. Otherwise, these missions might be able to de-rail the entire 'new space vision' at NASA"

*I'll say. Given the unfortunate track record of landers/rovers on Mars, I think it's a serious doubt (if Opportunity goes the same route and Spirit ultimately completely fails) multimillions of more $ will be spent any time soon to send more rovers to Mars. What, if anything, is THE key factor of the troubles with landers/rovers on Mars?

I sure am keeping my fingers crossed for both Spirit and Opportunity.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-01-24 07:33:00

I guess this isn't terribly important right now but, while we're waiting for some good news about Spirit, I have a couple of comments.

Thanks, Cindy, for trying to get that 'what colours a human would see on Mars' thing for me. But when I click on your link, I can't seem to find what I was looking for.

Thanks, Rxke, for the 'why is the sky butterscotch?' link. But I've seen that picture of the Viking lander many times before and I have grave doubts that it represents true colour.
If you look at the U.S. flag, you'll notice that the background of the stars is definitely purple, not blue as it should be. In addition, the red stripes are 'bleeding' into the white stripes.
The way to eliminate both these discrepancies is to turn down the red saturation (blue + red = purple).

In addition I have trouble every time I read that explanation of why the sky on Mars is butterscotch. I can understand why dust suspended in the air makes it look orangey-brown, I've lived through more than my fair share of terrestrial dust storms in the Australian outback!
But one minute they seem to say that with no dust in the air the sky would be whitish, the next minute they're saying it would be blue, like on Earth.
Then they go on to say the blue halo which is sometimes seen around the setting sun on Mars, is due to the light passing through more dust!
I've seen the outback sky gradually turn from blue to pale orangey-brown to brown and then to almost dark, as a dust storm took hold. At no time did the Sun appear to have a blue halo around it! More dust meant more brown ... period!
???

But maybe I'm missing something simple .. or maybe I'm a bit simple.
But anyhow, have a look at that red, white and blue U.S. flag in Rxke's link and tell me where all the purple's coming from. There's something wrong somewhere, right?

Byron · 2004-01-24 08:40:05

But maybe I'm missing something simple .. or maybe I'm a bit simple.
But anyhow, have a look at that red, white and blue U.S. flag in Rxke's link and tell me where all the purple's coming from. There's something wrong somewhere, right?

I don't think you're "missing" anything. I've played around with that particular image before in Photoshop; i.e., adjusting the color balance, hue and satuation, etc, and even when I get the flag to have a light blue background, (lighter than it should be), the sky still has a light beige color. In that particular image, I think the purplish tint is the result of low quality and/or oversaturation from age, etc.

However, I do have some Viking images that were supposely released by NASA a few years ago in which the sky is very blue, even though the landscape is still a rust-red color. Could this be due to someone playing a hoax, or is it possible that the Martian sky really does change color according to the level of atmospheric dust, etc.? Also, why don't they take some pics (when things are running smoothly, of course) of the sky looking straight up? I have a feeling it'll look a lot different than the sky near the horizon, as the atmosphere is so thin (like being at 115,000 feet here on Earth.)

So many questions, so few answers.... ???

B

Palomar · 2004-01-24 08:54:30

picking the worst news out of an article seems to be an obsession of mine....
" But the rover has been staying up through the night when it should be asleep. That can draw down its rechargeable batteries and trigger further problems. "
From [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … s_rover_49]Yahoo!
*Why can't they simply send a command to Spirit to get some rest? Or is that another catch-22 situation?

*I answered my own question.

[http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=11629]http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=11629

--Cindy

brthrjon · 2004-01-24 08:57:08

Didn't see this up here yet

SPIRIT UPDATE: - Jan 23, 2004, 6:35 pm PST
Shortly before noon, controllers were surprised to receive a relay of data from Spirit via the Mars Odyssey orbiter. Spirit sent 73 megabits at a rate of 128 kilobits per second.

Things seem to be somewhat unpredictable/unstable..

Here's hoping

Ad Astra · 2004-01-24 11:45:59

Does NASA still suspect the motor in the Mini-TES has something to do with it? After all, that was the component being tested before contact was lost. At this point, it looks like some kind of hardware failed and it might be several failures. Would NASA have a backup rover on earth they could use for troubleshooting? That might make it easier to isolate the problem. Either way, the investigation underway at JPL will be one for the ages.

Palomar · 2004-01-24 12:00:42

*Go Opportunity!!! Yeee-haaaaaaw!! She should land around 10:05 p.m. my time (US Mountain Standard). Sounds like she's staying a steady course.

I'll definitely be watching...and if my husband insists on watching the local 10 o'clock news, there is going to be a wrestling match for the remote control!

Opportunity, Opportunity -- rah rah rah!!

--Cindy :laugh:

Palomar · 2004-01-24 12:11:22

Two bits
four bits
six bits

A dollar

All for Opportunity,
stand up and holler:

YAAAAYAYAYAAA!!!

--Cindy

Marineris Sauce · 2004-01-24 12:50:17

Okay, I may have posted this in the wrong spot ( under 'Danger Will Robinson' ) but:

Is it possible for someone to 'hack' Spirit or Opportunity? This may sound ridiculous, I know, but I'm curious to know if some savvy techy guy somewhere might be able to affect the rovers given the right hardware and ability, etc, at his disposal? Could Spirit have been sabotaged? From what I've gathered on the reports, there is a very strong possibility of software corruption which explains the weird behaviour, etc, but have JPL programmers plugged some form of defense mechanism against 'outside' intrusion? Would it be that difficult to do? Also, there is still a possibility of hardware malfunction - which would obviously render human interference improbable. But, is software tampering from elsewhere POSSIBLE? One has to consider ALL possibilities...
???

wgc · 2004-01-24 12:52:40

Didn't see this up here yet
SPIRIT UPDATE: - Jan 23, 2004, 6:35 pm PST
Shortly before noon, controllers were surprised to receive a relay of data from Spirit via the Mars Odyssey orbiter. Spirit sent 73 megabits at a rate of 128 kilobits per second.
Things seem to be somewhat unpredictable/unstable..
Here's hoping

If thats the case, than they may be able to recover a lot of science from this mission, I think in wake of Columbia they are super cautious. I'm not in the know, but I suspect they are trying various scenarios on the similators before they even consider trying to break that reset loop.

Since they don't know whats causing the problem do that could do more harm... Those resets are there for a purpose , to protect the processor and integrity of the system.

The fact that the uhf is working means they eventually may be able to get pictures through the relays.

They probably will in the next few days try to get out of the reset, maybe upload code to tell the os to ignore the fault. We will see... A lot probably depends on what happens with opputunity.... This landing method seems to have worked twice so maybe we will have a second rover on mars by tommorrow morning.

In a novel I'm going to posting to my site soon, one of the stories involves a group of hackers called the darksiders , the hacker group which got of hand was originally formed when a mars rover operation goes bad, and in desparation a cash strapped space agency puts a processor simulator on the world wide web and promises anyone who can get pass the fault a million dollar prize.

Unfortuately I don't think Our goverment would ever do something like that , but it makes good fiction.
You can read about what I have planned on my site at sol3.typepad.com or chat about the spirit or opputunity missions on the message board. Yea I know this is just a selfish plug for my site... but....

wgc · 2004-01-24 13:05:52

Does NASA still suspect the motor in the Mini-TES has something to do with it? After all, that was the component being tested before contact was lost. At this point, it looks like some kind of hardware failed and it might be several failures. Would NASA have a backup rover on earth they could use for troubleshooting? That might make it easier to isolate the problem. Either way, the investigation underway at JPL will be one for the ages.

Name one space mission that didn't have problems, they lost pathfinder on several occassions... from other posts mostly at space.com there is talk of a backup rover used for simulation... also there's nothing super special about that power pc processor it uses, I think the engineers are

a, being very cautious
b. Have their time streched with another landing coming.

I think the best knews I've been able to pull from the releases is that it sounds like the uhf works. Thats good news for getting pictures.

No one is pointing to hardware failure yet... it could still be just software...

or one hardware component that needs to be bypassed... same thing can happen with your home pc and you think the whole thing is gone.... Thats how pc shops make money...
I almost always fix my own equipment.

wgc · 2004-01-24 13:25:11

Just head there's a 3:00 pm est news conference.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#151 2004-01-23 10:02:55

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#152 2004-01-23 14:28:27

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#153 2004-01-23 15:29:57

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#154 2004-01-23 16:56:07

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#155 2004-01-23 18:02:45

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#156 2004-01-23 18:09:29

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#157 2004-01-23 18:40:16

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#158 2004-01-23 20:05:52

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#159 2004-01-23 22:40:52

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#160 2004-01-23 23:28:15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#161 2004-01-24 00:27:02

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#162 2004-01-24 05:15:23

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#163 2004-01-24 06:05:28

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#164 2004-01-24 07:33:00

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#165 2004-01-24 08:40:05

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#166 2004-01-24 08:54:30

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#167 2004-01-24 08:57:08

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#168 2004-01-24 11:45:59

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#169 2004-01-24 12:00:42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#170 2004-01-24 12:11:22

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#171 2004-01-24 12:50:17

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#172 2004-01-24 12:52:40

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#173 2004-01-24 13:05:52

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

#174 2004-01-24 13:25:11

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 2 - Continued from original thread

Board footer