Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

Pendragon · 2004-01-14 21:28:59

These are my questions for those of you who have been discussing these topics longer than I have:

Who will control the means of production on the new Mars? And how can we prevent governments or companies turning any settlements into "coaltowns"? What I mean by "coaltowns" is a system where the populace work for the controlling body for a paycheck just to spend at the company store and on company housing.

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-14 22:18:14

I've always argued that it depends on how that technology gets there, and how it works (the latter being far more important than the former). If the technology is advanced enough, then the question becomes moot, because it would be trivial to share technologies able to ?replicate? itself. And I'm not talking nanotechnology or anything necessarily super-advanced, just a standard furnace/power/mould design, one which is robust enough to basically build another furnace/power structure/mould of the exact same dimensions.

This is an extremely complex question, and we can only profess to know what would happen to very small degrees. I feel that ideally, no one controls anything. A deep philosophical question to be sure. Others think it necessary for a large corporate society to exist. A convincing argument, perhaps, especially without the technology I was talking about; but then such a corporate structure might be inefficient (without the ablity to build certain things locally on Mars, we need to ship 'em in, and that'd suck). In the end I think it can be argued that such a society would have to be very fair, to a majority, for it to really work.

And then there's the argument that there ain't much profit to be had in space; by far my favorite, though I think I'm in a minority here when I argue it. But no one has really convinced me that people would be out in their space suits in coal mines, I mean, urainum mines, or gold mines or whatever you want to have which has supposed economic value.

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-15 01:22:07

Pendragon:

You asked, "Who will control the means of production on the new Mars?" If, for example, The City of Euthenia were to construct a daughter city on Mars (call it New Euthenia) the means of producing air in New Euthenia would probably be collectively owned and controlled. And the means of producing electricity would probably also be collectively owned and controlled. The city's streets would be collectively owned and controlled but I wonder about neighborhood domes. The neighborhood domes might be collectively owned by their residents, and residents might individually own homes within those domes. Similar to a planned unit development or condominium complex, the owner of each private residence might thereby own an undivided interest in the neighborhood dome in which his private residence is located.

I expect food production facilities to be privately owned and, like old-world cities, the streets of New Euthenia will probably be lined by vendors selling food an anything else that people might want to buy.

My "operating outline" for The City of Euthenia is posted at [http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/euthenia.htm]http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/euthenia.htm

Pendragon · 2004-01-16 15:38:09

And then there's the argument that there ain't much profit to be had in space; by far my favorite, though I think I'm in a minority here when I argue it. But no one has really convinced me that people would be out in their space suits in coal mines, I mean, urainum mines, or gold mines or whatever you want to have which has supposed economic value.

Well, if there isn't any profit to be had (for Earth use anyways), then will Governments take over the role of the corporation? And in the end, you will see mines in space considering it will be cheaper to supply Martian colonies with resources once the factories (of whatever size) get setup.

Scott:

Just an idea for your Euthenia, the red line doesn't have to loop around, its olny 100 meters. Let them walk/skip/hop (whatever their preferred method of moving may be).

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-16 21:26:03

Well, if there isn't any profit to be had (for Earth use anyways), then will Governments take over the role of the corporation?

It all depends on how it pans out. Say China is colonizing Mars; obviously the Chinese government will want to have a say with what goes on. But if it was individual colonizers, like I think it will be, then there would be no real government. You don't need a government to run life support, and in fact, it would run its best if a government wasn't there to dictate things. What you do need, though, is the capablity for self-sustainability, if not expandability. Without that I wouldn't even call you a colony.

When I say that profit is going to be minimal at best, I mean with regards to exports. There are resources on Mars which would in fact be potentially economically desirable to harvest, like throium or other nuclear energy fuels. Water, is another thing; having water outposts at the poles would be very exciting as far as economics go. But back to that self-sustainability question, though; if you have cute robots, you wouldn't need to buy water from Joe Blow, or thorium, or whatever, you could drive up there yourself and get your own.

This is talking about the very earliest stages of Martian development, though. If China were to lock off all the major deposits of valuable stuff, then you'd get into problems. And this opens up even more to the variables one must consider. I personally don't think people should 'own' more than you're using. I think it's BS that someone thinks they could legitimately go to Mars and say, fence off a bit of land, and say they own it without doing a dang thing with it. Especially if there's something really useful on that land, like water ice, or urainium deposits, or iron ore or whatever.

I've always argued that mines in space are inherently cheaper than mines on Mars. Resources outside of a large gravity well always are.

Anyway, fortune telling is hard, what do you think?

clark · 2004-01-19 15:28:39

. I personally don't think people should 'own' more than you're using.

Can i borrow your girlfriend when you're not using her?

It's a joke. Get it? [sigh].

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-19 15:59:44

::shakes his head:: That's a rather crude joke. You ought to be ashamed.

You know it's not that black and white anyway, we've been over it before really... basically, at what point do my actions become oppressive to you? Reasonable people should be able to figure that out without real government intervention.

Mundaka · 2004-01-20 18:22:51

Gennaro · 2004-01-22 04:24:02

Who will control the means of production on the new Mars? And how can we prevent governments or companies turning any settlements into "coaltowns"? What I mean by "coaltowns" is a system where the populace work for the controlling body for a paycheck just to spend at the company store and on company housing.

It's a good question. It occurs to me that a settlement, at least in principle, will turn into a "coaltown" all by itself, at least until the martian population becomes adequately self-sufficient on essentials. If you need a pressure suit or a computer, it will have to be shipped from Tellus and who can finance transportation other than the company or government agency?
But frankly, why must this be a problem? Mars won't be lucrative enough for private investors to venture into controlling its means of production for the foreseeable future, nor can I see the proletarian surplus supply of untrained labour suddenly pop up on Mars that in turn is needed for the "iron law of wages" to be put into effect.
I believe and hope that some sort of commercial interaction will indeed develop between Mars and Terra. Shipping palladium and platinum or deuterium fusion fuel to Earth might for instance help paying for various imports, but I think it will probably have to be an inside spaceagency/colonial office sort of thing (if they're smart!), with a state owned and essentially socialist structured organization, putting high profit margin goods on the open market in order to earn a little extra cash.
If you're a terran capitalist, there'll be a lot more lucrative ways of increasing your capital stock right here, rather than investing in risky and limited return interplanetary commerce.

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#1 2004-01-14 21:28:59

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#2 2004-01-14 22:18:14

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#3 2004-01-15 01:22:07

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#4 2004-01-16 15:38:09

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#5 2004-01-16 21:26:03

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#6 2004-01-19 15:28:39

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#7 2004-01-19 15:59:44

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#8 2004-01-20 18:22:51

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

#9 2004-01-22 04:24:02

Re: Means of Production - preventing "coaltowns"?

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