Beagle 2 - What's happening?

Palomar · 2003-12-30 06:43:14

I can almost hear the muffled crunch of frosty sand under my boot.

*Shaun, I can't help being a bit amazed that you include the word "crunch" in your description...considering you live in the subtropics. I know you were in England for a while, but to my knowledge England doesn't get anywhere near as cold as the northern Midwest of the U.S. (like Iowa).

Snow crunches underfoot when it is very cold. It's been over a decade now since I've lived in such a climate, but I remember snow crunching when temperatures hovered around the 0 degree F range.

How did you figure the word "crunch" into your descriptive? I'm really curious. I mean, I've known southern California-born movie makers who do goofy things like having their characters bundled up in big fluffy parkas...while standing barefoot on ice! Apparently those folks don't know what just 20 degrees F feels like...never mind icy conditions.

I've known people who are totally perplexed and "blank" when snow is described as "crunching" underfoot, who never lived in bitterly cold conditions.

Care to clue me in?

--Cindy

P.S.: Snow in bitterly cold temps (0 and sub-0 F) can also make squeaking and creaking sounds beneath the booted foot.

Stu · 2003-12-30 07:54:11

I know you were in England for a while, but to my knowledge England doesn't get anywhere near as cold as the northern Midwest of the U.S. (like Iowa)..

Hi Cindy,

Weird coincidence - I've just come back home from a trip thru to a nearby lakeside town called Keswick, I went there to take pictures because the day is so sparkling and cold here. We had an overnight temperature of minus 5 degrees C here, so today everything is covered in hoarfrost, and the grass is very, very crunchy underfoot because the grass is as brittle as crystal. When it snows, the sound we hear most is a soft, impacting "scrunch" and a squeak as you described, that's when the snow is only a couple of inches deep, but when it is thicker the sound is softened and deadened into more of a gentle "CRUMP"ing sound...

Wish I could show you the pics I took today... blue and white sky, ice halo around the low Sun, reflected in the still, icy waters of the lake... the mountain tops dusted in snow that looks like icing sugar ("Frosting" for our US members) has been sprinkled on them, kids running around jumping on the ice to break it up to skim across the lake... just spectacularly pretty.

Stu

Josh Cryer · 2003-12-30 09:47:41

Looks like no more briefings until the 4th. Hopefully the guys are getting some rest.

I was watching this last briefing (available in the archives), and I was just sitting here hoping that Colin proves everyone wrong. He reminds me of the lead guy on the Pathfinder mission, with his eccentricities and just overall unique behavior. Couldn't believe that speil from one of the journalists (he sounded American, but I'd have to go back and check to be sure) making some snide comment about asking the US for money. Colin's response was quite respectable, and I applaud him

I'm beginning to have my doubts about Beagle 2 now, but I'll hold out as long as the EASA team says I should (until they themselves give up)...

Damn sham the MERs don't have mass spectrometers. Why couldn't they take a page from Colin's book and add another instrument and throw out some non-essentials?

Stu · 2003-12-30 12:04:30

I'm beginning to have my doubts about Beagle 2 now, but I'll hold out as long as the EASA team says I should (until they themselves give up)...

Well, I was just outside in my yard, looking at Mars through my telescope - it's VERY close to the Moon tonight, and little more than an orange spark in the eyepiece now, even at 200x, compared to the beautifully-detailed disc I could see back in August - and even tho Beagle's landing site is out of view, hidden around the other side of the planet right now, I sent the little guy my best wishes. I STILL don't have that sinking feeling in my gut that told me the Polar Lander and MCO were lost, so I'm not giving up hope until that all-important first week in January.

Stu

Palomar · 2003-12-30 13:21:35

I know you were in England for a while, but to my knowledge England doesn't get anywhere near as cold as the northern Midwest of the U.S. (like Iowa)..
Hi Cindy,
Weird coincidence - I've just come back home from a trip thru to a nearby lakeside town called Keswick, I went there to take pictures because the day is so sparkling and cold here. We had an overnight temperature of minus 5 degrees C here, so today everything is covered in hoarfrost, and the grass is very, very crunchy underfoot because the grass is as brittle as crystal. When it snows, the sound we hear most is a soft, impacting "scrunch" and a squeak as you described, that's when the snow is only a couple of inches deep, but when it is thicker the sound is softened and deadened into more of a gentle "CRUMP"ing sound...
Wish I could show you the pics I took today... blue and white sky, ice halo around the low Sun, reflected in the still, icy waters of the lake... the mountain tops dusted in snow that looks like icing sugar ("Frosting" for our US members) has been sprinkled on them, kids running around jumping on the ice to break it up to skim across the lake... just spectacularly pretty.
Stu

*Hi Stu. While I don't miss cold weather (well, actually it has been rather unusually nippy for my neck of the woods lately), snow, ice, etc., I must admit it would be great to see those photos (England, yes...Iowa, no).

I like coincidences like these.

I just also read your post about looking at Mars through your telescope. I'm sorry, Rxke (thread starter), I don't mean to get toooooo off-topic (as if, yeah I know...) but...what kind of telescope do you have, Stu?

I haven't given up on Beagle 2 either, and I also don't have a "sinking feeling" about it. The upcoming 1-1/2 weeks are going to be very interesting!

--Cindy

Stu · 2003-12-30 13:29:17

what kind of telescope do you have, Stu?

Nothing too fancy, it's a 4.5" reflector on a mount that's computer guided... you type in an object's name or co-ordinates on a handset keypad and the onboard computer slews the scope around until it's pointing right at it! :-) I don't actually need that facility when I'm looking at the sky by myself in a field cos I know the sky very well, but it saves a lot of time when I hold public star-watches etc - you can show people more things in a given time than you could do just using the old-fashioned method :-)

It is quite a modest scope by today's standards but shows plenty... the Moon was stunning earlier, was looking right down into the craters. It was like flying over it in an Apollo!

Stu

Rxke · 2003-12-30 14:56:46

I'm sorry, Rxke (thread starter), I don't mean to get toooooo off-topic (as if, yeah I know...)

I'm not an Admin or something like that, drift as wide as you like! Heck, i've been enjoying myself immensely with the latter *great* posts, so no worries!

Just started a thread dedicated to Beagle 2, because i thought news would start flooding in, right after landing. Now it's time to take a bit of a break, wait for jan. 4th. Meanwhile, we chat about things related to Mars, our hopes, dreams, experiences...

I love this board... Really do. Going through a difficult time, just heard a friend of mine has been found dead... and, well, this board keeps me 'happy.' Keeps my mind working.

(Don't go posting condolences, please!)

Stu, your posts are so... Thought-provoking. And beautiful, you should post more often. (No dis to other people!)

Maybe offering more 'starry-nights' events to young people would change the way people react to 'that whole expensive space-thing'
Lots of kids go on a camp, every year. It would be relatively straightforward to implement some semi-organised group of astronomers in vans with some scopes, to introduce the kids to 'stargazing,' no? The long-trm payoff could be bg, if you'd keep it up...

Just a thought (and i know most of these summercamps have one big draback: short nights, long days, but...)

Stu · 2003-12-30 17:24:46

Stu, your posts are so... Thought-provoking. And beautiful, you should post more often. (No dis to other people!)
Maybe offering more 'starry-nights' events to young people would change the way people react to 'that whole expensive space-thing'

That's nice of you, thanks :-)

Yes, the star watches are very rewarding, and I am sure there are many societies doing the same thing in other countries too. I run an astronomy society here in the Lake District and we often hold public sky gazing events, whenever there's a comet or an eclipse visible we set our gear up in a big park by the river and just show people what's going on. These events are always well attended by kids (the trick is to hold them, if possible, on a Friday or Saturday night - no school the next day :-) Not always possible with eclipses of course) and there are always a couple of "kids only" scopes set up, close to the ground, so they don't have to wait in line with the grown-ups. We held a Mars Night (as described in my "LOST MARS" article) in August and that attracted LOADS of kids, and I am sure that some of them appreciated Mars as a real planet for the first time that night.

On my own, Outreach-wise, I give lots of talks to community groups and general public audiences - most recently a special "Beagle Approaches Mars" talk at a nearby science college... sigh... but most of my "work" is in schools tho, talking to kids aged between 6 and 11 (don't know what Grade that is over there in the US, sorry), giving illustrated lectures and presentations about astronomy and space, usually (BIG surprise, I know) about Mars. They can be very rewarding - I can go into a school feeling fed-up and generally burnt-out about space, and come out two hours later as fired-up as ever. They can be quite humbling too, tho - at a school I visited before Christmas I met a young boy who has barely survived leukemia of a sort, and he was ill during the talk. Kind of hard to be all funny and entertaining after that as you can appreciate. But something good came of it - I belong to a mailing list for meteorite collectors, and when I mentioned the young boy on that I was sent almost a dozen meteorites as presents for him by dealers. He's almost got as many meteorites as I do now! ;-)

But this is why I'm so passionate about Mars, you see? I know my place, I know I can't go, but when I go into a school, and talk about Mars, it's in the hope that it will make some of them want to. So I show them the ol'faithful slides of Marineris and Olympus, pass around my tiny phial of martian meteorite, bounce kids across the room to show them what low martian gravity would be like, and at the end of all that most of the kids in the class eagerly put their hands up when I ask "Who wants to go to Mars to see these things for real one day?" But *some* of them have a look in their eyes that tells me they're serious, they really do want to go. So they're the ones I look at when I tell the class that if they work hard enough, do the right exams, and really, REALLY want to go, any of them could go to Mars when they grow up. Then those few look back, and smile, and that's a real "shiver up the spine" moment I can tell you... :-)

And this is why I'm so proud of, and defensive about, Beagle. That little pocket watch probe is going there for you, for me, for all the kids I talk to in all the classes in all the schools here, and all around the world too. It's not a huge LOST IN SPACE robot, it's the size of the lid of one of the garishly-coloured plastic bins the kids throw their waste paper into in class. It's a gorgeous shiny and gold, like an old fashioned watch, or a chocolate coin; it looks like something they themselves could build in class as a science project, you know? And it has a definite goal all kids can understand - to look for life. It's because all kids are fascinated by aliens that they "get" Beagle. It's real to them. If you think about it, it's doing exactly what any self-respecting ten year old would do if they went to Mars - digging about under the dirt for bugs ;-)

I have bookings for several schools in the new year, approximately 300 kids all waiting for me to go tell them the latest news - and show them the latest pictures - from Beagle, so you'll have to forgive me if I get a bit grrrr'y about it on here. It's just that, well, it's Our probe, you know? It's there for us. In many ways, it's one *of* us.

If I could go and throw a blanket over the poor shivering little thing I would. But I can't, so I'll just keep telling the kids I meet in the street every day that they shouldn't give up on Beagle just yet.

I'm not.

Rxke · 2003-12-30 18:16:10

I wish i could be a kid again for a day, and listen to one of your talks...

You are an Important Person, Stu. It's people like you that make things happen in the long run.
Inspiring kids is *so* important to get the best out of them. Look for instance at Neil de Grasse Tyson. Grew up in the Bronx, got to look through a telescope, one night, and was sold. Now he's a widely respected scientist. It *does* happen.

At least one of the kids you talk to will one day be an astronaut, a settler, or a great scientist, and recall that day... listening to that nice man, talking about Mars. That day that changed everything...

I'm pretty sure of that. You're a gifted man with words. And you use them for a noble cause.

Don't laugh, but i feel 'honoured' to be able to read your stuff. Really do.

Stu · 2003-12-30 18:33:11

Thanks, but naaaah, I'm just a Grunt in the war against apathy and ignorance. Everyone on this board is fighting that fight everytime they Post something, because every day countless people drift by here - kids looking for help with homework, journalists researching articles, authors looking for inspiration - and read our discussions and debates and realise that wow, there really *are* people thinking and talking about going to Mars, it's *not* just science fiction after all. This Group is Important, *it* will make a difference. One day, I;m absolutely sure, there'll be Postings on here from astronauts onboard ISS, or working on the Moon, training for a manned Mars mission... and one day there'll be a thread in the Forums called "Messages From Mars" with letters home to all of us from a man or woman on the first expedition to Mars, maybe even one of those kids who came here looking for homework help.

They may even be logged on right now. Quite a thought eh? :-)

Stu

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-30 20:26:55

I'm with you, Rxke!
I love New Mars too and have formed cyber friendships with many humorous, intelligent and enthusiastic people through these posts.
And your input here in recent months has been a shot-in-the-arm for this board as well, at least for me! [Occasionally I do get a little 'down' about space exploration, especially in the face of articles like the one Cindy linked for us, written by a cheerful soul called Stephen Strauss and describing Mars as the "De*** Pl****"!! (Sorry, not allowed to mention the actual words used. Cindy has quite correctly indicated we DON'T want that little two-word catch phrase infiltrating anyone's thought processes! ). But bright and penetrating posts from the likes of you certainly do add zest to my day!]

I think what you've said to Stu about his activities probably speaks for the rest of us, too. I've always admired the 'doers' in this world; the ones who actually put in some sweat and some time, not just words.
Stu is indeed a gifted communicator and his energy and drive, combined with that obviously deep-seated love for his chosen subject(s), make him a formidable weapon in the struggle "against apathy and ignorance", as he puts it.
Go Stu!!!!

While I'm at it, kudos to Josh, too, for his stalwart refusal to give up on Beagle 2. I admire stoic tenacity in people and, although everyone here knows poor Josh's political education is sorely lacking in several areas, you can't fault him for tenacity!!
Jus' foolin' witcha, bro'!
I've got all my fingers crossed for that courageous little probe, too.

As for the 'crunch' under my boot on Mars, Cindy, you may be reading a little too much into the word. What was going through my mind when I wrote it wasn't so much snow as a mixture of sand, ice crystals and duricrust. Stu's evocative use of the word "brittle" set the scene in my mind (he paints a vivid word picture, that guy! ) and I just extrapolated from there to the possible sound of a boot on a searingly cold mix of ice and sand.
I've never experienced the sound of snow in temperatures as low as 0 deg.F. (Brrr!! ) One night in London, while temperatures further north in the Midlands dropped to -28 deg.C (which I think was a record low at the time? ), the thermometer got down to -12 deg.C. That was the coldest night I've ever known but there was no fresh snow to walk in.
I am familiar with the 'CRUMPing' sound of walking in thick snow, as described by Stu, though.
But where I live now, just 16 deg. south of the equator on the coast of the Coral Sea, there certainly ain't no such animal as snow! We don't even get close to a frost on a starry winter night. But sometimes on a sticky hot summer afternoon, when there's hardly a breath of wind, and the air's so thick and warm and wet you feel you're drinking it instead of breathing it, you get to yearning for some of that crisp cold weather.
That's humans for you ... never satisfied with anything!
:laugh:

Palomar · 2003-12-31 15:23:26

Read Me

*Now scientists are considering the Beagle's silence may be due to a problem with clock software issues (confusion with timing).

They've sent a message today for Beagle to reset its internal clock.

Hopefully this will work.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2003-12-31 18:12:10

It didn't work as hoped (ie, immedate results)...

But they hope it'll work on subsequent passes. It seems like no more Odyssey attempts will be had now, most likely due to MER reaching near decent altitude. Beagle 2 is on its own until Mars Express can settle in. I won't lose hope until after then.

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-03 13:11:17

Checking the Beagle 2 site I find: The Beagle 2 team wishes good luck to NASA's MER team with the landing of the Spirit rover.

Man. That's just so hartfelt. I really hope and pray, in my own way (as I'm not much of a praying man), that Beagle 2 is awoken when Mars Express sends its wakeup call. Got a great team over there halfway around the world, they've certainly earned my admiration in every way.

I feel so happy that this sort of solidarity exists in the scientific community, yet in the same breath I feel saddened that the Beagle 2 team has been so unlucky as of now.

Rxke · 2004-01-04 03:59:11

This one in from the last press conference:Still no sign from Beagle (BBC)

And for the first time they officially consider a crash a possibility, though wait for wednesday when Mars Express will be in place to try and contact the lander...

Palomar · 2004-01-06 12:10:05

A Final Attempt

*Mars Express will pass over the Beagle 2 landing site on Wednesday (Rik alluded to this in his last post). ME will be 233 miles (375 km) above the probe's landing site. I believe I understand (and I certainly do sympathize with) the frustration and envy mentioned in the article.

This news item also outlines the success of Mars Express and some of its mission goals (including high-resolution photos and eventual complete 3D map of Mars...I'd like one of those please).

Best of luck for getting a beep from Beagle 2. I am wishing for complete success.

--Cindy

::Edit:: Note in the "MARS.WIRE" portion of the web page an article entitled "Iraq war costs 'could have funded manned mission to Mars': Russian expert"

Rxke · 2004-01-06 12:48:41

::Edit:: Note in the "MARS.WIRE" portion of the web page an article entitled "Iraq war costs 'could have funded manned mission to Mars': Russian expert"

My first reaction was: let's make this a new thread!

but too afraid it will end in a political acrimounios discussion...

Rxke · 2004-01-06 16:03:38

Variation on Cindy's link: D-Day beckoning for Beagle 2 (BBC)

Rxke · 2004-01-07 12:15:23

Talking about beagle in the past... Seems like it's official, now

BBC

Well, they sure tried hard....

Rxke · 2004-01-07 12:21:21

It's *not* over, according to Pillinger, but he is obviously dissapointed. They'll keep trying for the next couple of days...

Stu · 2004-01-07 12:27:21

Today was a blow, that's for sure, but it was only the *first* "best chance" and there are other opportunities to come. Your heart has to go out to Colin P and the rest of the guys, they all looked absolutely gutted at the press conference. Each new Spirit image must be like a knife in their hearts.

I'm not giving up hope until Colin does. he's brought us this far, not going to desert him yet, even tho no, it's not looking good now.

The fat lady might not be singing yet, but I fear she is in her dressing room putting on her costume... :-/

S

Palomar · 2004-01-07 12:32:04

*I guess I've been so socially conditioned to expect "happy endings" all the time. But you never know -- the unexpected could happen. I certainly hope so, and that this story may have a happy ending yet. True life can be stranger than fiction.

I'm definitely holding out hope for Beagle 2.

As for the possibilities of Beagle 3 (the article Rik posted mentions it): I hope the U.S. would be willing to host Beagle 3 on a future mission. We've got to work together.

The future is more important than any 1 national identity/entity/ego.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-01-07 12:38:55

That's true, cindy, t's about science, education...

jut read an article on spacedaily where he said, ""I cannot get out of the car or buy a newspaper without somebody saying, 'I support Beagle 2'," he said. "We have demonstrated that people are interested in science and technology. We have to capitalize on that"

You just *gotta* love the man. He's great.

the article

Palomar · 2004-01-07 12:39:12

Your heart has to go out to Colin P and the rest of the guys, they all looked absolutely gutted at the press conference. Each new Spirit image must be like a knife in their hearts.

*Well, the news about Beagle 2 has been like a knife in my heart as well. A few days ago, as I drove past a nearby park, I saw a sign tacked up to an electrical pole: "Lost Beagle Puppy" and a reward. That immediately brought Beagle 2 to mind, of course.

It hurts, when you value science so much. Beagle 2 is indispensible; every mission is indispensible. Any bit of data returned is indispensible, and the opportunities to learn and acquire are so precious.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-08 08:24:26

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2003-12-30 06:43:14

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#52 2003-12-30 07:54:11

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#53 2003-12-30 09:47:41

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#54 2003-12-30 12:04:30

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#55 2003-12-30 13:21:35

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#56 2003-12-30 13:29:17

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#57 2003-12-30 14:56:46

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#58 2003-12-30 17:24:46

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#59 2003-12-30 18:16:10

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#60 2003-12-30 18:33:11

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#61 2003-12-30 20:26:55

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#62 2003-12-31 15:23:26

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#63 2003-12-31 18:12:10

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#64 2004-01-03 13:11:17

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#65 2004-01-04 03:59:11

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#66 2004-01-06 12:10:05

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#67 2004-01-06 12:48:41

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#68 2004-01-06 16:03:38

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#69 2004-01-07 12:15:23

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#70 2004-01-07 12:21:21

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#71 2004-01-07 12:27:21

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#72 2004-01-07 12:32:04

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#73 2004-01-07 12:38:55

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#74 2004-01-07 12:39:12

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

#75 2004-01-08 08:24:26

Re: Beagle 2 - What's happening?

Board footer