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#301 2026-05-13 08:26:34
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,619
Re: The Moon
Moon Cracks have become a major interest to me:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … i-AA2367kI
Quote:
The moon is still alive: The shocking truth behind moonquakes
Recent findings show the Moon may still be geologically active. Cracks and moonquakes suggest ongoing internal changes.These discoveries reshape how we think about lunar stability. The Moon may not be as dead as once believed.
*You have to unmute the video.
So, with the upper layers of the Moon shrinking faster than lower layers, (Presumable from cooling), and the tides, is this a bit like a jaw crusher?
https://www.cpcequipments.com/blog/cate … -crushers/
Quote: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.2339c820946 … ImgRaw&r=0
*You have to click the above link to see it.
So, are the Moon and Mars fracking themselves over time, with water settling into its fractures, and the Moon having rubble and gasses settle into it's fractures?
Query for more information: "The moon is still alive: The shocking truth behind moonquakes Recent findings show the Moon may still be geologically active. Cracks and moonquakes suggest ongoing internal changes.These "
The query results in this: https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+moon+ … ST&ntref=1
A question is can you burrow into the cracks deeply if over time the cracks have self fracked?
And may you access different resources and data than what is on the surface?
My notion is that the "Atmosphere" in these cracks will be more substantial and perhaps of different gasses than is true on the surface of the Moon.
Query: "What gasses may be inside of Moon cracks?"
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:
NASA Detected a Gas Leak on the Moon — No Human Was There. Scientists Still Can't Fully Explain
YouTube
AI AstroVeo
1.4K views
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-026-01933-2
Quote:
Daily variations of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen ions in a thin lunar atmosphere
Kentaro Terada, Ryusei Nishihira, Shoichiro Yokota, Yoshifumi Saito, Kazushi Asamura, Masaki N. Nishino & Shota Notsu
So, I am wondering if the higher layers of rock cool faster than the lower ones does that cause a stress that may provide horizontal crack extensions from the vertical cracks?
Do the Moon fractures fill with gas molecules, like it seems that the Mars fractures fill with water?
As fractures extend and rock may be grinded, are gasses embedded in the crust released?
Do Gasses on the Surface including Hydrogen, Hydroxyl, water vapor and Helium travel into the pore space of the Moon cracks?
I have read that the Moon cracks may be 19 to 20 km deep. So there may be a chance if the gasses settle there in the pore space that a very small atmospheric pressure might build up in the bottoms of the cracks.
Or do solar effects cause gasses to wick out like evaporation of water from wet cloth?
I am hoping that the cracks may turn out to be a source of resource.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (2026-05-13 08:54:57)
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#302 2026-05-14 09:29:44
- Void
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Re: The Moon
I am considering the possibility that there could be a way to extract molecules from a Moon crack without drilling too deep.
The nature of the molecule processes inside and outside the crack may matter.
I am making the assumption that molecules may accumulate in the cracks, sourced from deep inside the Moon and perhaps also some coming from the surface and responding to gravity. If this process were true, then there has be a point of saturation where the crack can hold no more molecules. The variables of surface temperature and tides may affect this saturation of capacity.
I think a "Dry Hot Well" method might work, along with a variable temperature adsorption/desorption process, and also electric current flows might work.
Long ago I read an article about how the Germans dried up ground using electricity so that they could move tanks, in WWII. Never could find anything about that in the recent years, I think it is not supposed to be available. Also though, if you make a plough blade a cathode, and put an anode in the ground you could attract water to the plough blade.
Today, I think I found support for this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5266900111
Quote:
As a result of application of direct electrical current alone, water is driven from the positive to the negative electrode, where it can be pumped out and discarded.
Quote:
Reference (44)
AdamsonL.G. et al.
Some data on electrokinetic phenomena and their possible application in petroleum production
Chim. Chronika (Athens, Greece)
(1963)
AdamsonL.G. et al.
Possible use of electric current for increasing volumetric rate of flow of oil and water during primary or secondary recovery
Chim. Chronika (Athens, Greece)
(1963)
AmbaS.A.
BelluigiA.
Über die elektro-osmotische Entwasserung von Lockerboden in dreidimensionaler Form
So now I have a proper word to search for! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrokinetic_phenomena
Quote:
Electrokinetic refers to the study and phenomena of particle or fluid motion induced by an electric field.
Electrokinetic phenomena occur when an electric field interacts with charged particles or surfaces in a fluid, causing motion of either the particles or the fluid itself. These effects are particularly significant in heterogeneous fluids, colloidal suspensions, or porous media, where particles can be solid, liquid, or gas bubbles at micro- or nanoscale. The underlying mechanism involves the electric double layer (EDL), a region near a charged surface where counterions accumulate, creating a potential difference that drives motion when influenced by an external force.
Wikipedia
+2
Key Electrokinetic Phenomena
Electrophoresis: Movement of charged particles relative to a fluid under a uniform electric field. This is widely used in analytical chemistry and biotechnology for separating biomolecules.
1
Electroosmosis: Flow of liquid relative to a stationary charged surface under an electric field, commonly applied in microfluidic devices and soil remediation.
2
Streaming Potential and Streaming Current: Electric potential or current generated when a fluid moves through a charged porous medium, useful in sensors and energy harvesting.
1
Electric Sonic Amplitude: Ultrasound generated by colloidal particles in an oscillating electric field.
13 Sources
Applications
Electrokinetic principles are applied in microfluidics, lab-on-a-chip devices, capillary electrophoresis, gel electrophoresis, and electrochromatography for precise manipulation and analysis of fluids and particles at micro- and nanoscale. In environmental engineering, electroosmosis is used to remove contaminants like heavy metals from soils. Electrokinetics also underpins the design of electrochemical devices such as batteries and electrosynthesis systems.
Number Analytics
+2
Summary
In essence, electrokinetics bridges physics and chemistry by explaining how electric fields influence the motion of particles and fluids. Its study enables control over microscale and nanoscale processes, with broad applications in scientific research, industrial processes, and environmental remediation.
Wikipedia
+1
So the presumed gasses in a crack or even in the regolith are perhaps to be considered to be at a lower partial vacuum than the Exosphere of the Moon.
If it turns out to be true that a reservoir of thin gasses exist in the crack it may be possible to draw (+) ions to a cold to hot adsorption method. You would also need an anode at some distance away in the crack. The Anode (+) would repel any (+) ions of gas, but the Cathode in the adsorption method (-) will attract a positive ion flow into the adsorption device. The adsorption device would be cold during this part of the action but later it would be heated to cause a release of the collected Ions in to a subsequent concentration/collection device.
It is possible that it might be helpful to heat the Anode to more excite the gas molecules.
https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/fil … part_1.pdf
Quote:
Effects of Pressure and Temperature on Adsorption
The adsorption rate is directly proportional to the temperature, pressure, and surface area of the material. Adsorption is a process where mass transfer occurs from gases into a solid material or from a liquid surface to a solid. Adsorption can be classified into physical (physisorption) and chemical (chemisorption) processes, each with its own set of characteristics and effects on the variation of pressure and temperature. Adsorption isotherms represent the relationship between adsorbate adsorbed and the effects of temperature and pressure. The Langmuir isotherm is a common representation of the equilibrium between an adsorbent system and an adsorbate in isothermal conditions.
AIChE
Doing an electric circuit on the Moon with an insulated wire might present trouble as the vacuum can leak electricity.
I have some hopes that an anode with an heated electron gun may be able to shoot an electron beam to a cathode method some distance away, perhaps line of sight.
So, we know that things like H20 and Hydroxyl move around the Moon during the day/night cycle. We may hope that there is a concentration of those and perhaps Carbon and Nitrogen in the Lunar Cracks, but we do not know yet.
Perhaps this is a frist attempt to design a machine to collect gas molecules on the Moon, specifically (+) Ions.
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Last edited by Void (2026-05-14 10:20:13)
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#303 2026-06-07 11:05:19
- Void
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Re: The Moon
Because of this I wonder if there could be hydrated minerals where there may once have been aquifers on the Moon.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1MGxM1
Quote:
Chip Chick
19.8K Followers
Scientists Claim Alien Life Could Have Existed On The Moon Twice Throughout History
Story by Emily Chan • 8mo •
3 min read
Night time and high latitudes could have been a place were water might have pooled.
Query: "Hydrated Minerals on the Moon?"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hydrated+ … pc=EDGEXST
Quote:
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Hydrated Minerals on the Moon
Recent lunar sample analyses have revealed hydrated minerals containing significant amounts of water on the Moon, challenging the long-held view that the Moon is completely dry.Discovery in Chang’e-5 Samples
In 2024, researchers identified a hydrated mineral in lunar soil returned by China’s Chang’e-5 mission. The mineral, (NH₄)MgCl₃·6H₂O, contains about 41% water by weight arXiv.org. Its structure resembles terrestrial minerals like novograblenovite (formed from basalt reacting with water-rich volcanic gases) and carnallite (an evaporite salt). The presence of ammonium suggests a more complex degassing history of lunar volcanic gases arXiv.org.Origin and Contamination Rules Out
Scientists ruled out terrestrial contamination or rocket exhaust by matching the mineral’s chemical and isotopic composition with its formation conditions. This means the water is native to the Moon and likely formed during volcanic activity when water-rich gases interacted with silicate minerals arXiv.org.Water in Sunlit Areas
The findings show that water molecules can persist in sunlit regions of the Moon as hydrated salts, not just in permanently shadowed craters arXiv.org. This expands the potential locations for water resources and changes how we model lunar water distribution.Broader Implications
Resource potential: Hydrated salts could be a source of water for future lunar bases, especially if processed to extract hydrogen and oxygen.Volcanic history: The mineral’s composition provides clues about the Moon’s volcanic degassing and the chemistry of its early atmosphere.
Meteorite link: China’s Chang’e-6 mission also found rare CI chondrite meteorites on the Moon, which themselves contain hydrated minerals, suggesting that volatile-rich asteroids can deliver water-bearing material to the lunar surface Futurism.
Summary
Hydrated minerals on the Moon — such as the ammonium-magnesium-chloride hydrate found in Chang’e-5 samples — prove that water exists in chemically bound form in sunlit areas. This discovery reshapes our understanding of lunar water, its origins, and its potential as a resource for human exploration.
The sun was perhaps only 70% to 100% as warm as it is today. Probably more towards 70% at the time of Moon water.
The Moon may have had much more geothermal heat at that time.
So, Snows rains, fogs, frosts? More at was at that time the high latitudes.
Lunar days were shorter then.
So, if dry regolith is piled on top of fossil aquifers, then much in the way of Hydrated Minerals may exist further down.
We know that Mars was very wet early on but not now, perhaps the Moon was very wet a one or two times.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-06-07 11:14:17)
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#304 2026-06-09 09:31:32
- Void
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Re: The Moon
In the prior post some claims are made that the Moon had a significant atmosphere perhaps 2 times in history.
I have recently seen an article that indicated that the Earth had a crust much earlier than was previously supposed.
There are claims that Mars had lots of water in deep fractures far below the surface.
It is possible that a worlds size determines the rate of some parts of it's aging form?
I am willing to agree that the effects of the sun will have taken away some of the atmosphere and water of Mars, but it seems to me that Mars is more like somebody pulled the bathtub plug and much of the water went underground into fractures. Why does that not happen to Earth?
I think that Plate Tectonics would tend to squeeze the water back up, and also bond many of the cracks with heat. The gravitational force would be assistive in that.
In a world where no gravity existed you could mix rocks and water and they would not settle out from gravity. No, such world can exist, but a world with 1/3rd or 1/6th of the gravity can and does exist still.
If the Earth had a crust very early then why couldn't the Moon?
If the Moon were a somewhat wet world at least 2 times in history, I expect that it "Aged" much faster than Mars.
As cooled faster in its crust than mantle, perhaps similar to Mars, crack space might have drained any pooled water into its crust.
Even if the wet phases were only millions of years in length, this could have happened.
But we seem to see lots of broken dry regolith on the surface. If there were a intense bombardment with relatively dry rock, then perhaps this is the answer to why.
I am not very hopeful of residual water in deep cracks on the Moon, but I am hopeful that if water did fill those cracks, then Hydrated minerals may have resulted from chemical reactions.
The dry regolith the Moon is covered with may be more of a mask than the true identify of the Moons character, I think.
It is possible that I am correct/incorrect in these claims.
But it would be very worthwhile to find out, I think.
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Last edited by Void (2026-06-09 09:44:48)
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#305 2026-06-20 12:36:52
- Terraformer
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Re: The Moon
NH4? Ammonium minerals? Not just water? Ooh that will be *very* useful.
Use what is abundant and build to last
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#306 2026-06-20 16:27:44
- Void
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Re: The Moon
Well, I would think it is worth looking into a bit: https://www.dailymail.com/sciencetech/a … nking.html Quote:
The incredible shrinking Moon: Cracks in the surface of our nearest neighbour reveal it is getting smaller
See more Daily Mail on Google - save us as a Preferred Source
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
Updated: 06:43 EDT, 21 August 2010
Image Quote: 
Quote:
Cracking up: The unusual lobate scarps have been found in the lunar highlands by Nasa's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. (AFP/Getty)
It looks as if lose rubble has settled into a crack that has been expanding while the crust cools and contracts.
I am wondering if these cracks might have intercepted old lava tubes. If so, if water pooled on the Moon, it could have sunk into such a underground structure.
The cracks are said be as much as 19 km deep. Can it be possible dig into them by some means?
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Quote:
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Yes, the Moon has lobate scarps, which are tectonic landforms associated with thrust faults. These features primarily occur in the Moon's highlands and were first recognized in photographs taken during the Apollo missions
Smithsonian Institution
Smithsonian Institution
+1
. Lobate scarps are formed when the lunar crust contracts, causing the near-surface materials to break and create thrust faults
NASA
NASA
. They are significant geological features that indicate the Moon's dynamic history
earthmagazine.org
earthmagazine.org
.
Many of these may be too young to have been flooded in the past, it seems: https://www.science20.com/news_articles … nking_moon
https://airandspace.si.edu/research/pro … carps-moon
However, they seem to talk about compressive forces. I was expecting cracks formed by crust contraction.
Again many of the cracks are young, and I would not expect those to have water alterations in them. Too bad. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 031532.htm
Query: "Very Old Deep Cracks on the Moon?"
Well it seems that the word "Grabin" has merit for my quest. Quote:
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Ancient Deep Cracks on the Moon
Recent high‑resolution images from NASA’s Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera (LROC) have revealed massive, deep cracks — called grabens — that crisscross the Moon’s surface, especially around the ancient Mare Humorum basin Earth.com+1. These grabens are the largest known tensional (stretching) structures on the Moon and are concentrated along the margins of large dark volcanic plains.How They Formed
Grabens form when a block of crust drops between two normal faults as the surface is stretched. On the Moon, this stretching was driven by volcanic loading. Mare Humorum, a circular basin in the Moon’s southwest, was filled with thick basalt layers (over 2 miles deep in some areas) during the Imbrian period (~3.7–3.4 billion years ago) Earth.com. As the lava cooled and contracted, the basin floor sagged inward, creating outward‑pulling stress on the surrounding crust. This stress fractured the stronger rocks into long, deep valleys — the grabens The Daily Galaxy.Scale and Significance
Number: Over 1,800 graben segments have been mapped on the Moon’s near side Earth.com+1.Size: Many run hundreds of kilometers but are only a few miles wide.
Global effect: When all grabens opened, the Moon’s radius increased by about 400 feet — a tiny change in absolute terms but a clear sign of global extension Earth.com.
Age: Most large grabens formed between 3.7 and 3.4 billion years ago, with a peak near 3.6 billion years ago Earth.com.
Other Ancient Cracks Beneath the Surface
NASA’s GRAIL mission also detected underground gravity anomalies — long, straight dikes of volcanic rock — that formed when magma pushed against the Moon’s cooler crust in its first billion years EARTH Magazine. These dikes predate most of the Moon’s cratered surface, meaning they are among the oldest known structures on the Moon.Ongoing Activity
While most grabens are ancient, some recent studies suggest that the Moon’s crust is still adjusting. A high‑resolution graben reported in 2025 may be less than 50 million years old, indicating that tectonic stress and crustal deformation can occur much later in the Moon’s history Earth.com.In summary: The “very old deep cracks” on the Moon are primarily grabens formed by crustal stretching under the weight of ancient lava seas. They are both a record of the Moon’s early volcanic and tectonic history and a testament to the fact that the Moon’s surface has been reshaped by internal forces for billions of years.
Query: "When did the Moon likely have an atmosphere?"
This seems favorable to the idea of water in the Grabins. Quote:
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When the Moon Likely Had an Atmosphere
The Moon’s atmosphere today is extremely thin — essentially an exosphere — but geological and geochemical evidence suggests it once had a much denser atmosphere, and possibly even thicker ones at different times in its history.Early formation and Late Heavy Bombardment (4.1–3.8 billion years ago)
Shortly after the Moon formed about 4.5 billion years ago, it was molten and covered in a global magma ocean Science Mission Directorate. Around 4.1–3.8 billion years ago, during the Late Heavy Bombardment, intense asteroid and comet impacts triggered widespread volcanic activity. These eruptions released large amounts of gas, including water vapor, carbon dioxide, and other volatiles, creating a temporary but relatively thick atmosphere Astronomy Magazine+1. This atmosphere may have lasted for tens to hundreds of millions of years, with peak density around 3.5 billion years ago, when pressures could have reached about 1 kilopascal — roughly 1.5 times thicker than Mars’s current atmosphere Astronomy Magazine+1.Volcanic gas releases (3–4 billion years ago)
Studies of ancient lava flows (maria) and Apollo samples show that between 3 and 4 billion years ago, the Moon’s volcanism produced enough gas to sustain a detectable atmosphere for about 70 million years Astronomy Magazine. This atmosphere was still far thinner than Earth’s, but it could have allowed some liquid water to exist transiently in the Moon’s narrow “habitable zone” between its hot and cold sides Smithsonian Magazine.Earlier possible atmosphere
Some researchers also suggest that shortly after the Moon’s formation, during its early magma ocean phase, outgassing from the surface could have produced a brief, thin atmosphere Smithsonian Magazine. Large asteroid impacts in the distant past may have also released gas, though these events were less extensive than the Late Heavy Bombardment period Smithsonian Magazine.Summary timeline
~4.5–4.1 billion years ago: Early magma ocean; possible brief outgassing atmosphere.
~4.1–3.8 billion years ago: Late Heavy Bombardment triggers major volcanic gas releases; thick atmosphere for tens–hundreds of millions of years.
~3.5–3.0 billion years ago: Peak atmospheric density; possible transient liquid water.
~3.0 billion years ago onward: Gradual thinning; current exospheric conditions.
In short, the Moon likely had a detectable atmosphere for most of its first ~3 billion years, with the densest phase occurring around 3.5 billion years ago during its Late Heavy Bombardment period Astronomy Magazine+1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon
So, I would suppose that with a dim sun and shorter days at that time, the best bet for liquid water would be at an appropriate latitude where snows and frosts might melt during the day near a Grabin.
It could be possible, I think. The Moon apparently also had a good magnetic field at times in the past.
Query: "When might the Moon have had a global magnetic field?"
Quote:
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When the Moon Might Have Had a Global Magnetic Field
Recent reanalysis of Apollo-era lunar rocks suggests the Moon likely had a global magnetic field only briefly in its early history, rather than for most of its existence.Key time window:
The strongest evidence comes from magnetized rocks dated between about 4.25 and 2.5 billion years ago. At around 4 billion years ago, lunar samples indicate the Moon’s magnetic field was strong — possibly above 110 microtesla, compared to Earth’s current ~50μT Wikipedia+1. This period overlaps with the Moon’s early volcanic activity and the formation of its very tenuous atmosphere.Nature of the field:
Duration: The global dynamo may have operated for only a few hundred million years, from roughly 4Ga to 2.5Ga National Center for Biotechnology Information.
Strength: At peak (~4Ga), it could have been stronger than Earth’s present field, but it weakened over time, dropping to ~20μT by 3.6–3.1Ga Wikipedia.
Later history: After ~2.5Ga, the Moon’s magnetic field became weak and localized, with magnetization mostly from crustal rocks rather than an active core dynamo Wikipedia.
Why it was short-lived:
The Moon’s small iron core (about 1/7th of its radius) cooled quickly, making it difficult to sustain a long-lived geodynamo Wikipedia+1. Instead, the strong magnetism recorded in some Apollo samples may have come from brief internal melting events or impact-induced magnetic fields, rather than a continuous dynamo casualastronomer.com+1.Sampling bias:
Most Apollo samples came from titanium-rich maria, which are more likely to record strong magnetism. This means the “strong field” signal may have been exaggerated, and the actual duration of intense global magnetism was likely much shorter than previously thought ScienceDaily.Summary:
The Moon probably had a global magnetic field only during a short window between ~4 and ~2.5 billion years ago, with peak strength around 4Ga, before its small core could no longer sustain a dynamo. For most of its history, especially after ~2.5Ga, the Moon’s magnetic field was weak and localized.
Ending Pending
So, if you had been on the Earth 3 billion years ago, Mars might have still been alive and you might have seen weather in the Moons atmosphere.
Last edited by Void (2026-06-20 17:11:44)
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